Mini Normal 2012: Tropical Mafia [Endgame]

[northsidegal]

VC 2.01

votes

Shosin

(3): havingfitz, Mumble, Invisibility

Mumble

(1): Shoshin

Not Voting

(7): Havo, Jodaxq, texcat, JarJarDrinks, bacy, Gustavo, BlueBloodedToffee

With 11 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

The day 2 deadline is in

: (expired on 2018-06-09 19:20:59)

Mod Notes

: Havingfitz is V/LA until Tuesday.

[Shoshin]

no? its more like Mumble doesn't get why Garuga thought that i should have been lynched. it was less of a defense and more of a callout of poor logic

That's what scum do when they see a townie voting another townie - they call out "poor logic" while refusing to take a position about the player they're implicitly defending. And I've seen that pattern repeat itself in almost every game of mafia I've ever played. Townies behave differently: they usually take a position about both players, as it's only natural for townies to start sorting the relevant players when analyzing the "poor logic" - otherwise how are they even supposed to evaluate the logic?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shoshin, I would like to pear up with you today. Are you open to that?

I'm more than happy to lynch Mumble or Invisibility. I don't really have a preference either way.

VOTE: Mumble

[Gustavo]

v/la until Tuesday

[JarJarDrinks]

I'd put the game on Mumble being scum if Rampage is.

No reevaluation after the flip?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, no need to. Mumble looked bad regardless, I would say Invisibility looks even worse for trying to avoid the wagon without any sound reasoning as well.

[JarJarDrinks]

No, no need to. Mumble looked bad regardless.

Why did Mumbles look bad?

[Gustavo]

No, no need to.

Bullshit. You always reevaluate without a flip. I fos anyone who doesn’t.

[Gustavo]

After a flip*

[texcat]

I don't like HF's use of "wtf" - his reaction seems a bit over-the-top.

bad

JJD vs Shoshin is not SvS

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: JJD
scummiest person right now for me

Invisibility, join me on Mumble!

you were literally voting me a few posts ago what

So what? I'm voting Mumble now and you should join.

i like this better
VOTE: Shoshin

So do you now think that it was SvS?

[Invisibility]

I don't like HF's use of "wtf" - his reaction seems a bit over-the-top.

bad

JJD vs Shoshin is not SvS

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: JJD
scummiest person right now for me

Invisibility, join me on Mumble!

you were literally voting me a few posts ago what

So what? I'm voting Mumble now and you should join.

i like this better
VOTE: Shoshin

So do you now think that it was SvS?

probs not

[Invisibility]

probably so*

[Invisibility]

@BBT how do you feel about Shoshin trying to get me on the wagon?

[Jodaxq]

VOTE: Invisibility

I don't really know what I think about this vote. Not necessarily the person you voted for, but the fact that you naked voted to start day 2. You were pretty verbose on day one with no reservations about explaining your thought process. Why a naked vote? Why not give an explanation here?

[Jodaxq]

Garuga should not have claimed. Even though I was pushing his wagon it wasn't getting a lot of support so I was leaving it as well. Don't get his early (L-4?) claim.

Still like my vote from eod yesterday.

VOTE: Shoshin

v/LA till Tuesday morning

for holiday weekend in US.

I really don't like this. It's very active lurker-like.

Why vote now instead of waiting until you come back?

[Jodaxq]

Why?

Besides the points I raised on D1, his continued push on Garuga in the latter part of D1 felt very mechanical (as town, I think his read would have shifted more fluidly), and his refusal to hammer Rampage while doing nothing to prevent the mislynch suggests Invisibility knew Rampage would flip town but had no desire to save his life.

Isn't this what you were accusing JJD of on day 1? That he interpreted your actions in the worst light without understanding your thinking?

[Jodaxq]

Could you elaborate?

No, your posts peak for themselves. Why JJD?

I disagree that they speak for themselves in this regard and it really makes your previous explanation seem forced

[Jodaxq]

VOTE: Mumble

From the way he's playing, he's clearly implied that Invisibility is town in a way that suggests he's pre-inclined to do so (either because Invisibility is his partner, or because he knows Invisibility is town). He read Garuga as scum, he read me as scum, and he jumped on the Rampage lynch when it was popular to do so. In other words, he's voting townies. And he's obscured his alignment by keeping his thoughts to himself, and when pushed to offer some thoughts, he's refused. He'd rather vote me to answer his questions than actually say who he thinks is scum, or vote whoever he thinks is scum. Also, note how he's still voting with support in HF - never making decisions without someone else pursuing the same things. It's time for him to offer some thoughts on the game that don't consist of pointless questions or voting popular wagons or voting without any semblance of a scumhunting mindset. Also, consider how terrible his vote on me is - voting because he doesn't want to offer his own thoughts about the game before I answer more of his questions, as if somehow I'm scum because I want to know his thoughts on the game uninfluenced by my answers).

Invisibility, join me on Mumble!

This is what I mean. Your explanations are really inconsistent. You naked vote Invisibility, refuse an explanation, and then provide this explanation and vote all in the same page.
Then, you ask someone who you supposedly scum read to vote with you for who you believe to also be scum. I'm just confused at your progression at this point.

[Jodaxq]

i like this better
VOTE: Shoshin

How do you square this with your scumread on JJD?

You are calling him scum while voting another slot.

Do you think there's only one scum in the game?

These thoughts oppose each other. Invisibility's scum read is bad because he has a different scum read, but it's okay for you to have multiple scum reads?

[Jodaxq]

im kinda feeling shoshin as town tbh, will post more thoughts in the morning though

I would like to hear this.

[Jodaxq]

I'm voting Mumble for a few reasons. First, Mumble says he never implied that Invisibility is town, even though he's been defending Invisibility (and thus implying Invisibility is town) on both D1 and D2 - and that's scummy because he's acting in a way that shows he's pre-inclined to read Invisibility as town while refusing to actually commit to a position. Second, Mumble's done very little other than vote townies (me, Garuga, and Rampage) when it was popular (read: opportunistic) to do so. And third, Mumble's unnaturally defensive in a way that betrays a scum perspective.

For those of you who aren't seeing what I'm talking about, here's a post-by-post breakdown:

I haven't seen any questions aimed at me in the last few pages, so here's my prodge:

I getting a vibe from texcat that she'll be easier to sort as the game goes forward and more substantial info comes up. Nullreading her for now.
I think BBT should reveal his townread. Since the only posters between 64 and 71 are me, bacy and Invisibility, I'm guessing it's bacy, but it would be nice to get official confirmation.

Lynchplan:
VOTE: Invisibility
2. havingfitz
3. Shoshin
4. Gustavo

Interesting. Why Invisibility?

Mumble questions Garuga's read on Invisibility.

He's not providing clear arguments for his reads. His "what?" trilogy (151 153 155) is probably the best example, along with the (19 23 28) trio early on.

So why naked vote him (essentially doing what you are scum reading him for) instead of asking him to clarify?

Because I see an alternative reason for your vote...

The Invisibility questioning becomes a defense ("why vote him instead of asking for clarification?").

Um...I'm not new? The re-vote is ridiculous and confusing (especially since I'm having a time differentiating you and Gustavo).

However, you didn't answer my question about clarification, and instead try to throw shade on me for a really weak reason.

VOTE: Garuga

Mumble continues defending Invisibility by voting Invisibility's attacker.

Mumble also interprets Garuga's 311 as an attack when it's clearly not. Seriously, read 311. There's no hint of an attack on Mumble, yet Mumble feels attacked? Scum know townies are after them, so they tend to feel unnaturally defensive when engaging townies in a conversation.

So, assuming the entirety of that was directed at Invisibility (unclear, but I'll assume), I agree with the points he made on you at the time. You feel like you're scum reading him because he voted you.

Mumble continues defending Invisibility. And Mumble continues suggesting that 311 is an attack, even after Garuga clarified that Mumble misinterpreted him.

I think my vote is better served here for the moment.

VOTE: TheRampage

Mumble votes a townie, which has become the popular (and safe) wagon at this point. He offers no reasons for joining the wagon. He's the fifth vote of seven.

Summarize your D1 points. I don't see how his refusal to hammer Rampage while pushing another read is scum oriented. Looking at his ISO, I don't see anything to assume he knew Rampage would flip town and that seems presumptuous./quote]
Mumble continues defending Invisibility by attacking the reasoning for my push. Mumble's blindness is also unnatural - it's fairly obvious why refusing to hammer Rampage while allowing the Rampage lynch to happen is scum-oriented (scum love to let mislynches happen without having to actually vote town themselves), and Invisibility's ISO exhibits further evidence of an informed perspective when Invisibility read Rampage as VI (i.e. scummy but town) (evidence that Mumble has chosen to ignore so that he can attack my push as "presumptuous").

VOTE: Shosin

Now answer my fucking questions.

Mumble votes town, not because he reads me as scum, but because I want him to offer some thoughts on the game uninfluenced by my answers to his questions.

I've not implied that I think Invis is town...I asked why you think he was scum given your naked opening vote. I jumped on Rampage because we hadn't had a wagon at that point, and wagons are good (absent dumbasses who will end the day early with them).

Mumble says he never implied that Invisibility is town... so Mumble's ignoring the pattern of defending Invisibility throughout the game? He doesn't want to take a position on anything. He even disclaims any sort of conviction in the Rampage wagon ("I voted Rampage because wagons are good, not because he was scummy"). There's no hint of any attempt to actually scumhunt or identify scum in his posting, nor is there any attempt to make his alignment known to us - only defensive moves (for himself and Invisibility) and votes on townies without any meaningful conviction behind them.

Invisibility, explain how Mumble's a townread for you? and explain how anything about my push (or its reasoning) is scummy?

I think you're trying to put a lot more implication in some of these posts than there is. A lot of that looks like standard questioning from Mumble. Once again I feel like you're doing some the things that you yourself claimed were scummy on D1.

[Jodaxq]

I didn't push HF. I raised concerns about his play.

I agree that Shoshin wasn't really "pushing" Fitz, and I think Mumble tried to extract too much out of it.

[Jodaxq]

your reasoning on the scumbuddy/knowing im town thing is bad. especially when you're telling me to join the wagon. also you're being contradictory by calling me scum and then telling me to join the wagon

What's bad about my reasoning? If you're town, don't you find it odd that Mumble keeps defending you while refusing to townread you? The point is that his behavior betrays an informed perspective about your alignment, regardless of whether you're town or scum.

There's nothing contradictory about asking you to join a wagon on Mumble - it's in the town's interest for people to vote scum, regardless of whether the voters are scum/town, plus it's an opportunity for you to show me how you think about the game. It's a reaction test with a pro-town objective. So far, you haven't given me any reason to townread you but I'm constantly reevaluating and if you're town I'd very much appreciate you making that as clear as possible to me.

Okay this is a good post and I like this explanation.

[Jodaxq]

no? its more like Mumble doesn't get why Garuga thought that i should have been lynched. it was less of a defense and more of a callout of poor logic

That's what scum do when they see a townie voting another townie - they call out "poor logic" while refusing to take a position about the player they're implicitly defending. And I've seen that pattern repeat itself in almost every game of mafia I've ever played. Townies behave differently: they usually take a position about both players, as it's only natural for townies to start sorting the relevant players when analyzing the "poor logic" - otherwise how are they even supposed to evaluate the logic?

I like this post too.

I'm unsure of what I think about Shoshin at this moment. I'll have to reread her day 1 as well.

[Jodaxq]

No, no need to. Mumble looked bad regardless, I would say Invisibility looks even worse for trying to avoid the wagon without any sound reasoning as well.

This doesn't seem genuine. If Mumble looked bad regardless, then there wouldn't be a "if Rampage is". Why not say anything about Mumble's day 2 play?