Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[HeWhoSwims]

fwiw - From a quick metaread dave in this game seems more think-y and question-y while scum!dave in our previous game seemed to accuse people more, if that makes sense.

[pinturicchio]

pinturicchio - I will feel bad if RL is the real cause of the issues here. But it felt scum before that point.

If you think I felt scum before IRL reasons, why you didn't push me? You aren't pushing me right now either, why vote HWS instead of me? This seems like you are setting yourself for voting me when the opportunity comes, let's say, if someone starts a wagon on me. Start it yourself, or is that too much compromise? D2 would look horrible for the one who starts the wagon on the low hanging fruit.
VOTE: davesaz

[Zoronos]

Why is the Zoronos-TW association stupid? I hope not only because its you

Why do you excuse ofrhz here as in why couldn't be the scum on town!worst wagon? I find those 2 to be equally suspicious at this point.

In somewhat reverse order - because I think ofrhz is towny and its hard to be town and also scum on the wagon.
Talk to me about your ofrhz read -> Presented with the option of ofrhz and the worst, your vote has been on ofrhz, so walk me through that suspicion.

re: HitAlt - Because his case for it is based on a combination of misrepresentation, stale reading, and reading posts out of their surrounding context. But mostly because he's assuming my progression was ever a secret. I feel like I've been extremely forthright about my position on the worst (I'll summarize it below in case for some reason it's not obvious).

However, I have no interest in tearing it down unless I absolutely need to because I town read HitAlt and it does me no good to either get into a 1v1 with someone I don't want to lynch or degrade the credibility of someone I think is town. He's wrong, but that's fine so I don't care unless circumstances force me to care. I'd rather work with my town reads, not start wall offs with them.

Here's the summary of my progression on the_worst (this should all be readily apparent from reading my ISO but I'll save you the trouble):
I thought the worst was towny early, like page 1. Then I wasn't sure why but had a bad gut feel about the wagon (when I say wagon, I am referring to both the voters and the target, which I think is where the confusion initially arose) because of a vague feeling about the way he and HitAlt were talking. That is, my gut didn't think it was TvT but I wasn't sure what side the scum was on or what was making me feel that way.
I decided HitAlt was likely town but wasn't sure enough / enthusiastic about whether the worst was actually scum to move forward solidly. He's still in my PoE lynch pool.

So I'm searching for a lynch I am more enthusiastic about.

[ruru]

i was just about to say that it's not at all unlikely that there's also scum in {S_S, NSG}

That is, my gut didn't think it was TvT but I wasn't sure what side the scum was on or what was making me feel that way.

Okay this came up twice now and I'm not sure I understand statements of the form "not TvT"

I usually feel things like

"X is scummy"
"{X, Y} are not scum together"
"{X, Y} could be scum together"

To reach a feeling of "anything but TvT" or the related "1 scum in {X,Y}" I need to independently believe "X is scummy", "Y is scummy", and "{X, Y} could be / are not scum together"

Not "this interaction is weird" => "one of them must be scum". Like if anything that points to specifically SvS I would think?

i'd put NSG at 85-90% town

How does this relate to "1 scum in {nsg, SS}"? Isn't SS just scum then?

(

Personally

I think the answer is yes, but I'm trying to understand your thinking here)

[Zoronos]

Okay this came up twice now and I'm not sure I understand statements of the form "not TvT"

If I could have defined it easily, I would have done so at the time, but I'll point out the conversation I meant and do my best to describe it.
If you go back and look at the way HitAlt and the_worst talked to eachother, starting around 332. HitAlt voted the worst in 277 and the worst reached out to him with questions but hitalt was obviously away from the thread in the interim. The discussion they had starting at 332 confused me. It was very jokey, and the worst partially validated / agreed with the scum-ofhrz read in 338. (Maybe that's not a fair characterization of 338, but I'm not sure how to better characterize it).

I started trying to unpack it in 360 but I'm not sure I got the clarity I wanted. My gut thought something was odd about the way they talked to eachother, but I didn't know what. Their conversation felt stilted and didn't seem to flow very naturally. Which again is an imperfect mapping of words to feelings and casts equal blame for an unequal situation. The emotional tenor didn't seem to fit the situation.
Some part of my brain went 'Could this be SvS theater?' but based on the way HitAlt has been playing I have largely dismissed that possibility.

In summary, I think HitAlt is towny and the_worst is still suspicious.
Did that help?

(Here's the HitAlt+the worst combination ISO: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go)

[Zoronos]

I owe dave some thoughts and a response to his answers to my questions, and I haven't formulated them yet - I need to ponder and I've gotten bogged down in this other discussion.

[Mathdino]

Ruru I changed my mind after actually reading NSG iso

You can kinda get a sense of what work I have or haven't put in reading through my iso

Sorry about the confusion tho

[HitAlt]

However,

I have no interest in tearing it down unless I absolutely need to because I town read HitAlt

and it does me no good to either get into a 1v1 with someone I don't want to lynch or degrade the credibility of someone I think is town.

This is something town should always think about. Not necessarily say, but anyway.

He's wrong, but that's fine so I don't care unless circumstances force me to care.

I'd rather work with my town reads, not start wall offs with them.

This is good too.

That is,

my gut didn't think it was TvT but I wasn't sure what side the scum was on

or what was making me feel that way.

This is worse though, it leaves so much 50/50 in the air.

I decided HitAlt was likely town but

wasn't sure enough / enthusiastic about whether the worst was actually scum

to move forward solidly.

He's still in my PoE lynch pool.

So I'm searching for a lynch I am

more enthusiastic

about.

Very fence-sitty on the worst. Notice how TW is in a PoE lynchpool, but not a scumread.
Not apparently willing to lynch there D1? (another one of those this game)
Perfect place to put a scumbuddy/future mislynch in.

So this fits the bill of scum!TW=scum!Zoro. (or does someone disagree?), but also gives some credibility to scum!Zoro outside of scum!TW.
Urge to lynch the worst rises....

[HitAlt]

I hope everyone understands this is NOT a setup where we should leave any 50/50 lynches for later days..
With a framer out and about, there's absolutely no reason to "have faith" in PR's solving this for us anyway.
I think this should straight up mean that we push for lynches NOW, but I already know where this is going.

[ruru]

Ruru I changed my mind after actually reading NSG iso

Sure, but why did you originally think "one scum in {nsg, SS}"?

[Mathdino]

I felt like smarts position on NSG was reasonable reading through his side of the conversation
I'm that guy that only reads one side (the incorrect side) of a political debate and then walks away like "well yknow its BOTH SIDES that are the problem here"

[Zoronos]

That is,

my gut didn't think it was TvT but I wasn't sure what side the scum was on

or what was making me feel that way.

This is worse though, it leaves so much 50/50 in the air.

I decided HitAlt was likely town but

wasn't sure enough / enthusiastic about whether the worst was actually scum

to move forward solidly.

He's still in my PoE lynch pool.

So I'm searching for a lynch I am

more enthusiastic

about.

Very fence-sitty on the worst. Notice how TW is in a PoE lynchpool, but not a scumread.
Not apparently willing to lynch there D1? (another one of those this game)
Perfect place to put a scumbuddy/future mislynch in.

So this fits the bill of scum!TW=scum!Zoro. (or does someone disagree?), but also gives some credibility to scum!Zoro outside of scum!TW.
Urge to lynch the worst rises....

Augh, I'm going to throw a wrench at you.
There was a time, in the past, where I believed that it might be a 50 / 50. I don't believe that now and have been exceedingly clear about that. You edited out the part of that very post where I clarified I don't believe it's a 50/50. There is nothing left 'in the air'. Stop misrepresenting trivial details.

My read on the worst is not fence sitting. If the wagons are ofhrz vs the worst and I need to hammer one, I'm hammering the worst. There is nothing special about D1 or any other day that makes the worst magically immune to lynching.
I'm not enthusiastic about the lynch because I'm not fully convinced he's scum, so I'm looking for a lynch I am enthusiastic / convinced about. If the worst is scum, he's not solo scum in this game so he has partners some where. Even if I end the day voting the worst, looking for those partners is valuable.

[BlackStar]

I hope everyone understands this is NOT a setup where we should leave any 50/50 lynches for later days..
With a framer out and about, there's absolutely no reason to "have faith" in PR's solving this for us anyway.
I think this should straight up mean that we push for lynches NOW,

but I already know where this is going

.

I agree with you about pushing for lynches on the people we're unsure about. What do you mean here though?

[ruru]

my main problem with S_S is that it seems unfounded to get up in arms with a player clearly working off a lot of PoE
scumreading him just because he hasn't posted anything townish

it seems like a lot of his reads are uncharacteristically based around interaction with his slot

I felt like smarts position on NSG was reasonable reading through his side of the conversation

Huh

[Almost50]

Prodge

I'll get to this later

[Almost50]

Ooops! I'm the MOD, am I no??

[Almost50]

There you go

Sharing is Caring D1 VC #14

jjh927 (3): northsidegal, Mathdino, the worst,
the worst (2): HitAlt, jjh927,
ofrhz (2): BlackStar, HeWhoSwims,
HeWhoSwims (2): davesaz, ofrhz,
Something_Smart (1): ruru,
davesaz (1): pinturicchio,

Not Voting: Something_Smart, Zoronos,

S_S V/LA till Tuesday

(expired on 2018-06-06 23:00:00)

Q: What do you call a dinosaur that never gives up?
A: Try-hard-ceratops!

[Mathdino]

my main problem with S_S is that it seems unfounded to get up in arms with a player clearly working off a lot of PoE
scumreading him just because he hasn't posted anything townish

it seems like a lot of his reads are uncharacteristically based around interaction with his slot

I felt like smarts position on NSG was reasonable reading through his side of the conversation

Huh

okay so i was like

S_S sure is scummy here, but if i put myself in his shoes, his position on NSG actually seems reasonable

if i already know smart is town

idk man i'm not a bastion of consistency, my reads look really weird when i'm in the middle of reevaluating/catching up lol

NSG is town now so it doesn't matter
S_S decent pick for scum but i still need to refamliarize myself with his meta

[ruru]

Hmmmmmmmm

I kinda want to say scum.you doesn't post something so lynchbaity?

I do see the {tw, zoro} possibility, especially zoro's recent posting felt like SvS

But then zoro's posting overall feels town to me at this point and I feel like drawing conclusions off a small number of scummy posts from a player who produces a lot of posts is extremely likely to give false positives

Especially if we're talking about flipping tw first, like if zoro is likely town then him making SvS-y posts about tw doesn't make tw very much more likely to flip scum

So I kinda want to ignore it for now?

[Mathdino]

I don't think changing my mind is lynchbaity personally
It just dilutes my intended message and makes my charisma meter take a hit

Zor highly unlikely scum
Likely nightkill, it's just not worth talking about

[ruru]

S_S sure is scummy here, but if i put myself in his shoes, his position on NSG actually seems reasonable

if i already know smart is town

This is the part I saw as lynchbaity

[the worst]

okay HitAlt is just full of shit too. I might be slightly biased by knowing for a fact I'm not scum with Zoronos but your casing is absolutely awful and you're stuck in the most disgusting tunnel. This isn't actually towny pushing.

[the worst]

This game is getting gross. I feel like some people here are easy to work with but {jjh, Hit} are just tunnelling me to the point of being completely awful at mafia. There's 1-2 scum here, and I can actually see them as scum together.

[Zoronos]

This is the part I saw as lynchbaity

That post (from Math) made sense to me.
I'm not sure I agree with the underlying notion (because I haven't given it a lot of CPU cycles yet), but his meaning was pretty clear because I thought something similar earlier.
If I put myself in town S_S's shoes: I know I have barely been playing the game, then someone comes out with a really strong sort on me, I'd go "Hey, wait, why?" From a town perspective you know you haven't put out enough content that someone should have that strong an opinion about you. So town players should be scratching their heads whereas a scum player would just be lying to have a lynch target.

I think the critical disconnect there is the 'strong scum read' vs 'bottom of PoE' miscommunication between S_S and NSG.

[ruru]

I just meant I thought it looked somewhat like a tmi slip (which I don't think scum.math actually makes here)