SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE

[the worst]

but you raise a fucking convincing point regarding his reactions to being townread. I'm still really not satisfied he's rolling outside of his scumrange but I'm reconsidering my insistence about sorting him later.

[Shoshin]

Chara's probably town.

[the worst]

concur

[Punreader]

I find it odd to without more information.

It is specifically because it was done without more information it's not odd. Bulletproof is normally a power you seek to conceal, but the specific nature of my role makes it harmless, even beneficial, to half-claim it.

3)

When he's present, he engages with multiple people at once, drawing focus onto himself.

Actually this is me explicitly dicking around. When you see me truly

engage

people, you won't need to have me tell you; you'll instantly see it.

I think it's time for me to be a little less passive in how I approach things here.

I'll be doing similar within 72 hours. I'm still hoping for something I've yet to see manifest, which will impact my reads.

Your reads have no explanation, so I can't follow them that well.

This is another reason I've been stalling on posting my reads because I generate reads before I generate explanations. (It's one of the main habits I'm using this account to break.)

Free preview:

PP's last post makes me feel that PP v Taly is not TvT. Dunno which one is the Scum yet, though. I'll catch that on re-read.

It is far from a surefire thing given I have limited experience with both players, but from what I know this is fairly standard Taly play and not what I'd expect from PenguinPower if he were town. This would not be something I'd state with any level of true confidence, but it has enough where I'll back your sentiment.

[DeasVail]

I have things to talk about but it will have to be tomorrow

[TehBrawlGuy]

My take on it, as is my take on most early claims, is that I don't really care. I could give you 5 reasons town!pun makes that claim and 5 reasons scum!pun makes it, but it's all baseless speculation.
From my experience, people like to read roles and claims a lot more than players (see also: some of the chatter on espe/dunn), and it's a mistake early in the game. Shelve the claims, develop reads on actual play.

Meh... Do you have a read on their play, then?

I just don't get tonereads, as in, I'm not someone who uses tone to gamesolve, usually.

I'm very case-style, and that doesn't merge too well with current site-meta.

I'm having second thoughts on

Fire

. I didn't like that they minimized me trying to interact with them. I can't tell if he was playstyle clashing with me or overtly trying to dismiss me. He could've easily responded to my points, and instead he found reasons to state that I wasn't oriented to gamesolving. 84 - 87 and 88

I also don't know what to think about

Espe

and

Dunn's

claims at the moment. I don't have a strong read on either of them, and coincidentally, I'm leaning to the suspicion side for

Vax

and

Fire

.

Vax

because he's just drifting in the game and fluffposting; like an active lurker.

Fire

because I'm afraid I'm townreading scum, and he would be the first person I'd rethink.

If I had to number based off reads, I'd put them all near mid-range, but I don't think that's optimal.

How do you feel about these 4?

Ehhh... I have reservations of literally pointing out someone and all of us collectively give them 0s. If they're town, that's basically a free sacrifice for scum.

That's just a mislynch though? I don't get why you're opposed to this. Yes, if we hit the wrong target, someone Town dies, because that's how lynches work - and we're not usually shy about lynching. I've been thinking about it more, and I'm strongly in favor of having two pseudo-lynches today. If we don't do that, I'd bet dollars to donuts Scum rank people weirdly to fuck with the numbers behind the scenes. The reasons for doing it to save another scummate are clear, but they also benefit from keeping someone Town alive who should've died to the ranking, because they'll enter D2 as mislynch bait.

I'd rather not mislynch at all. If I were going to put someone at a 0 as a scumread, I'd be weary on whether everyone's doing it or not.

Is there anyone that has warranted a 0 from you, yet?

Fire: pings me, but I can't tell if that's because badtown or scum. I'm leaning badtown.
Espe: Has been pretty content to talk a lot about his role and the mechanics, but hasn't chimed in on much else. I consider focusing on that kind of role-centric discussion and avoiding giving any stances a pretty universal scumtell.
Dunn: Not a lot to go on, but seems genuine in the content he has. town lean
Vax: Town, as stated in my last post.


I get that you'd rather not mislynch, but surely you see that putting the two upcoming deaths in Town's hands completely is better than leaving it influenced by Scum? We should all just agree to 0 the top two vote getters for today. I'm willing to go on record agreeing to it now. I'll 0 the two top vote getters today.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Re-read PP and I don't see anything that jumps out to me as particularly scummy, and I'm not going to re-read all of Taly's posts. I still think it's not TvT though.

I suppose if I'm going to endorse pseudolynches I should vote. VOTE: espe.

[DeasVail]

Change of plan. The time is actually now! (Plans to do something else ended up falling through)

First, regarding TehBrawlGuy:

I still think he's scum. His posting since I last posted has not done anything to quell my suspicion.

This is the problem.

His posts are a particular style of sounding busy without actually offering much insight nor demonstrating much evidence of engagement with the goal of finding scum. (or finding town, or whatever a town-oriented goal in this game would be!)

His first two posts, 34 and 36 are joke posts, which is totally fine. I don't have any issue with these.

37 is the first questionable post, but still, not totally convincing of scum or anything. I'm not sure if town would necessarily have any reason to expect such a post to yield any actual results. So, it

could

be a scum attempt at looking like they care when they actually don't. BUT, I could also see town possibly posting it anyway. So that by itself is not much.

60 is an example of sounding "helpful" without actually offering much of substance. I think it, as a post without much further thought on the game, is more likely to come from scum.
78 follows this theme, and I will get back to the "TehBrawl and the pseudolynch" saga later.

My biggest reason for suspecting him in the early stage of the game, however, was 142. And I agree with the point that ActionDan made in 154.

2)

TehBrawlGuy

, where's your head at? D: You posted but I don't know what to conclude from it.

disagree that pun's claim should be viewed as towny - BP is a very easy falseclaim to make, especially conditional where nobody can shoot safely to check it. I still read him as Town on tone, but I think giving him townpoints for the claim is bad logic.

espeonage town tone

fire scums

maria town for 126/127

@dunn and espeonage: do you just need him to be higher/lower than an average, or a certain mark? because we as a town could give him all 0s or all 10s to guarantee one of you gets the power

Taly asks TehBrawl where his head is at. He gives a vague noncomittal opinion on punreader which was the hot topic of the moment (not scummy in and of itself but certainly well within what I would expect from scum)
And then a few reads.

Then he asks the above question of dunnstral and espe. And this question is really sus! It gives off the vibe of trying to be helpful and work things out, but is it really realistic for town to structure their voting around some conflicting power role thing. It's pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. But it's totally something scum would ask to look like they are TOWN and trying to HELP THE TOWN SUCCEED WOO!

The entire post gives me the impression of scum trying to look like they care, but I believe the content reveals a lack of actually caring about scumhunting/townhunting/the town succeeding.

---

Brawl explains his reasons for promoting pseudolynches in 211, but it doesn't make all that much sense.

"I'd bet dollars to donuts Scum rank people weirdly to fuck with the numbers behind the scenes"

How can scum fuck with the numbers if they don't know what the numbers are? He mentions scum either trying to save a team-mate or save mislynch bait. But using both as reasons doesn't make sense either. If scum "fuck with the numbers" in order to save mislynch bait, then that puts themselves at greater risk.

I'm not totally against the pseudolynch idea, because sure, it'd work okay I guess. I just think it's boring and loses the potential of catching scum out by playing a game format that they are unfamiliar with. But TehBrawl's posts have a conspiracy theory vibe to them that I think comes from scum.

Not only this, but in 285, he implies that those who disagree with the pseudolynch idea are scum because pseudolynching is pro-town because he said so and isn't listening to what other people might have to say about it.

I also have an issue with him saying that PP's post means PP v Taly is not TvT. It only gives indication of PP's alignment, except in the case that PP is scum, in which case it may give insight into Taly's alignment. But that is not what TehBrawl is saying, he's saying that PP's post means one of PP/Taly is scum, which doesn't make sense! It's just empty "sounds helpful" posting that is what TehBrawl has been doing all game.

[DeasVail]

okay free time ends now. Other posts later.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm pretty confused how you think " I still read him as Town on tone, but I think giving him townpoints for the claim is bad logic." is vague and non-committal. It literally contains the phrase "I still read him as Town".

Scum can fuck with the numbers by giving one generally-seen-as-scummy person high numbers, for one. Say that by the end of the day, I'm generally suspected. If I'm Scum, then obviously my mates will rank me highly to prevent me from dying. If I'm Town, then they can still do that so people ask "How did Brawl live?" at the start of D2. People keep talking about "catching scum" via the rankings, but the voting is all private, so there's not any way to actually do that. Unless they're careless and make a shitty fake ranking instead of a buyable one, there's not really any way for us to catch them doing anything.

Not only this, but in 285, he implies that those who disagree with the pseudolynch idea are scum because pseudolynching is pro-town

because he said so and isn't listening to what other people might have to say about it.

This is a pretty big misrep, especially the part in bold. If I strongly believe that pseudolynching is in the Town's favor, then naturally, I think Scum would want to push against it, because it's to their advantage if we don't pseudolynch.

I've given you the mechanical reasons why pseudolynching is good. It's not like I just came off my mountain to preach it for no reason. Implying that I'm not listening to what anyone else says about it is disingenuous, especially when the primary arguments in rebuttal have been fairly weak, such as "we'll (somehow) catch scum in rankings!" and "i don't want to mislynch townies".

[Taly]

*wakes up*

oh god

Townlean on

TBG

deleted.

Wallpost incoming whenever I feel like it, because I just woke up.

[TehBrawlGuy]

someone who isn't me, give me your thoughts on 307

I feel like it's pretty blatantly misreppy with the things I addressed in my last post, and that pings me pretty hard, but there's an amount of internal frustration/omgus there that makes biased. I'm trying to sort if this is town!dv getting overeager and viewing all my posts under his own tinted lens, or if it's scum!dv just trying to bury me

I'm leaning towards the first, but I'd like an outside opinion

[Taly]

When Chara, Pun and DeasVail post this past page-

When TBG and PP post this past page-

[Taly]

ALSO STOP USING BUZZWORDS LIKE OMGUS AND LAMIST.

DO YOU WANT TOWN TO LOSE? STOP SCUMCLAIMING OR BEING OVERTLY BAD TOWN.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Or you could stop being condescending in giant text? Seriously, it's obnoxious, and I'm already sick of you doing it.

I don't get what the issue is with using terminology if it helps convey meaning. It's not like this is a newbie game. You all know what it means

[the worst]

yeah okay fine Taly is probably town whatever

[Taly]

It's been awhile since I had a good 1v1

Or actually, 2v1 - because 2 people are very strong scumreads right now.

[Taly]

LET'S START WITH PP.

Then why are you even bringing up votes? If you think there's no point, you're not adding to the discussion by saying "I want this, but we can't have this"

And if you think votes are worthless, I'm voting you, and is it not catching your attention?

I said I wanted a system to vote, not the standard voting system. I don't really care that you have voted me since it means naught.

VOTE: Taly

1)

Delayed ass vote. Disingenuous.

2)

You literally discredited and dismissed my vote on you. Good job.

3)

You show no effort to try and actually figure out my alignment.

VOTE: PenguinPower
VOTE: PenguinPower
VOTE: PenguinPower

Either you're scum, or scum must LOVE keeping you alive.

Because I'm looking to see if you're trying to genuinely figure out my alignment, or trying to make a townread on me seem unusual or unwarranted.

Then wait for the original person asked to answer before jumping in.

Did you read a thing

Chara

stated? He wasn't going to answer until I stepped in.

He wasn't the reason I posted, of course, but instead of pushing me out of a conversation and then shading me for asking my OWN questions; how about you actually listen to the person you're talking to.

1) I still think their claim would potentially come more from town.

Not sure I agree, and, as I said originally, I find it odd to without more information.

Um... What's odd about waiting to give reasoning for a read? You know that's been half of the reads given so far in this game, right?

Why are you cherry picking the few reads of clarity on ME?

2) Curious about everyone else questioning the claim.

Why is that town and not scum? Both alignments can do that.

No, I'm saying I'm curious about everyone questioning his claim.

That makes me think he's more town, because it's easy for scum to cast suspicion and distrust revolving around an otherwise potentially pro-town claim.

I think, generally, scum would have a smarter claim.

3) When he's present, he engages with multiple people at once, drawing focus onto himself.

All 5 posts...totally drawing focus.

I mean, when he's present.

That's much more than what I can say for most of your ISO.

4) Questions reads on him and gives valid counterstances that help improve the perception of another player.

This happened where?

Have you read any interactions I had with him?

[Taly]

Or you could stop being condescending in giant text? Seriously, it's obnoxious, and I'm already sick of you doing it.

I don't get what the issue is with using terminology if it helps convey meaning. It's not like this is a newbie game. You all know what it means

Is this your way of trying to downplay my intentions, again?

[TehBrawlGuy]

yeah okay fine Taly is probably town whatever

is this a towntell for taly or something?

give me your thoughts on 307 and 308

[TehBrawlGuy]

Or you could stop being condescending in giant text? Seriously, it's obnoxious, and I'm already sick of you doing it.

I don't get what the issue is with using terminology if it helps convey meaning. It's not like this is a newbie game. You all know what it means

Is this your way of trying to downplay my intentions, again?

I sincerely don't understand what you're trying to get at with this. Clarify?

[the worst]

yeah okay fine Taly is probably town whatever

is this a towntell for taly or something?

give me your thoughts on 307 and 308

1) going by the last few pages he's more likely to be town than he usually is yeah
2) what about 307/308?

[TehBrawlGuy]

yeah okay fine Taly is probably town whatever

is this a towntell for taly or something?

give me your thoughts on 307 and 308

1) going by the last few pages he's more likely to be town than he usually is yeah
2) what about 307/308?

sorry, 307 & 309

specifically w/r/t how much I feel like DV misreps me in 307 for his points that I talk about in 309. I don't really have a problem with his other points - the first half of his post is fine.

[the worst]

they are BIG POSTS with lots of thoughts in them and I think you guys need to talk it out between yourselves a bit more before I'm comfortable giving some kinda read that's actually got any weight

[Taly]

Spoiler: Me Line-By-Lining TBGs 285, get the popcorn out people.

This is a scum post. Let's dissect it!

I'll probably make a longer post later but here are my brief thoughts:

I mean, you haven't expanded much on the thoughts you're about to go into...

lmao @ vax wanting to kill me for the wang claim - I'm not even mad, it's too funny. Vax is probably Town because I think that's a crazy push for Scum to make.

1)

You say

Vax

is town, but instead of telling him why his push on you is wrong, you laugh at his reasons. Disingenuous and clearly not oriented into gamesolving.

2)

Your reason for his push being bad is that it's crazy for scum to push it? What? It just sounds like you're injecting your own bias to strengthen your means of discrediting him.

Do you know for a fact scum would be crazy to push you? Because you're pretty blatantly anti-town with the reason posts.

I definitely see resisting the pseudolynch as a ProScum play - PP and Taly both get shade for this.

Have you READ my posts?

At what point have I EVER gone with the idea that a psuedolynch option is bad? What the hell? I've been voting and ranking and giving suggestions of how town should work together, and this comment heavily implies you're not even listening to it.

Chara's townread on me doesn't seem genuine - they've given themselves an "out" to it every time they've posted and I find it weird that I've consistently sat at lukewarm town without moving.

Why do you keep weakening all the townreads on you? Like, you're casting uncertainty and suspicion while townreading someone? Maybe you know they're town for a fact, but you want a free mislynch when it's optimal for you?

This isn't town.

Also, it's convenient for you that you talk about

Chara

when he posts about ME.

previewedit: PP's last post makes me feel that PP v Taly is not TvT. Dunno which one is the Scum yet, though. I'll catch that on re-read.

...Where do I begin with this?

1)

Thanks for the mid-D1 dichotomy. Must be great to cast as much WIFOM as possible for you, right? Helps that scum-wincon.

4)

2)

You never said why TvT isn't possible between us.

3)

You casted shade on BOTH of us WITHIN this post, yet you're going to imply that one of us is scum, and the other is town? Wtf?

4)

The whole fencesitting on us is fake; you're looking at an opportunity to push a side of our 1v1 that BENEFITS YOU. You've displayed no real read on

PP

or myself, and this comment is very, very destructive to town congealing.

Or you could stop being condescending in giant text? Seriously, it's obnoxious, and I'm already sick of you doing it.

I don't get what the issue is with using terminology if it helps convey meaning. It's not like this is a newbie game. You all know what it means

Is this your way of trying to downplay my intentions, again?

I sincerely don't understand what you're trying to get at with this. Clarify?

If you think using poorly-defined buzzwords like

OMGUS and LAMIST

accurately display your thought process and paints a good picture for town that DOESN'T cause uncertainty,

then you need to rethink your approach here, critically.

Being condescending is the last thing I'm intending right now - your 'criticisms' are not easy to understand or engage with, and the more you keep posting in this muddy-gray area alongside this, the more I scumread you.