SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE


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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:06 pm

Post by Punreader »

In post 381, Chara wrote:punreader, i can't wait for why i'm a perfect ten.
Full version is coming, but the basic version is two factors.
One, something I suspect but shall not comment on any further. (This I will not go into detail on.) It is not much in of itself, but it certainly augments,
Two, experience. When you are town it displays and it is on display clearly.
In post 406, MariaR wrote:need to fill in the blanks I see
PenguinPower and Pine as your zeros. You won't regret it. Unless you're their teammate. :P
In post 411, TehBrawlGuy wrote:VOTE: pp
I buy the claim, I just think he's lying about the alignment of it. That's a straight-on perfect Scum role.
Agreed.
In post 467, DeasVail wrote:Hi Punreader. This reads list was pretty similar to where I was at that point in the game. Main exceptions are Chara's high placement (they're probably only a weak townread for me right now) and Pine being so low. So I'd be pretty interested in explanations of those.
Chara, the short version is above. Pine, the short version is that this is Pine transparently being a punfuck. I am intimately familiar with his meta as both alignments and I guarantee you his contribution this game is him as pun. I can cite multiple behavioral tells to this effect, from what content he is giving, what reads he has given, to the ways he has given it and I will do precisely that in the full version. He had no clue he was playing with
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, so he didn't properly hide his tells that give him away to me.
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:09 pm

Post by Nahdia »

I think trying to find some way to optimize the ranking phase is folly. Like Chara said, if we have some universal scumread and they slip by that phase, we can always lynch them. IS there even anyone whom people are in total agreement should get all 0's though? Can we talk about that? This conversation seems like a lot of futile fluff that's really easy for scum to blend in during. Scum thrive when mechanics is the focus of the game rather than scumhunting.

@Punreader when you say pun do you mean scum..?
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:14 pm

Post by Punreader »

I'm beginning the full write-up now, but it may take me a while. (My estimate is 1-2 hours.)
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:14 pm

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In post 526, Nahdia wrote:@Punreader when you say pun do you mean scum..?
Most commonly, yes. It has other uses, but that is the main one.
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Post by TehBrawlGuy »

In post 518, Chara wrote:and you may as well include 1s as an additional 0 to use, if you're doing something like this at all.
and there are 4 scum, they have 40 points max with which to elevate a player of their choice, not 30.
Screen was talking about how many points they could swing to a fellow scummate if we agreed to give them all 0s. They can swing +30.

They'd get up to 40 points total, since everyone has to 10 themselves, but it's easiest to think about if you look at the total number of points given by other players since that lets you work at a base of 0.

Randoming or lying both accomplish obscuring our non 0s, so I endorse both plans.
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:51 pm

Post by TehBrawlGuy »

In post 521, Chara wrote:basically, i think we're better served going in order of our reads whilst deciding on some players that definitely need to go. if someone dies outside of that, it means scum decided to kill them with rankings, and it also means that the player would probably have been mislynched anyway.
if we go random after deciding on a few universal zeroes, it means scum could theoretically kill anyone they liked.
like me, for example. :> or any other more helpful player who's actually good at mafia.
Here's are two pretty simple scenario where that's a bad idea. Say we have a mafia member in our 0s. Scum save him, and someone else who was 1s/2s die. We react appropriately, and PL the mafia member D2.
This is just straight worse than offing the mafia member D1.

In the other scenario, assume Scum save a town 0 instead. If we PL him D2, then we get to D3 with 3 Town deaths on our hands.

We definitely don't want to stack 1s and 2s on the same people.
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:58 pm

Post by Nahdia »

Alternatively, we just don't publish our lists before the ranking phase, we do so afterwards. Giving everyone a pass to lie about their reads is just shooting ourselves in the foot and randoming makes zero sense. Even if scum are able to save themselves in this phase, we'll still clean out some scummy town.

In other news, we should VOTE: End day sooner rather than later, though we can wait for some people to craft reads lists first if they really insist. I would advise against outright ranking them though and publishing who you're giving what score. I don't believe there's much to be gained from a prolonged day 1. From experience, spending a long time just chatting with no information doesn't necessarily lead to better reads. Watching the chaos that was Civilization Mafia certainly taught me that.

Realtalk, that's enough about mechanics. Let's get talking about reads. I think Pine's shit he got warned by the mod for was towny, so I'm eager to see Punreader's assessment to the contrary. Dunnstral's content is lame, particularly his response to my opener; extremely LAMIST and doesn't track considering he's barely playing the game himself. Chara looks like its townself (have I ever played against you as scum tho?) but its read on DV's opening doesn't track with me at all, and the thing it pointed out tends to be something I look for.

TBG really needs to stop talking shop and get back to scumhunting.
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:59 pm

Post by Nahdia »

I hereby declare anyone after this point who makes a post purely mechanical in nature will provoke my eternal ire and I will campaign for their death forevermore.
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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:00 pm

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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:05 pm

Post by Punreader »

Starting point:
In post 370, Punreader wrote:
TOWNIE TENS:

Chara

EAGER EIGHTS:

Taly
Dunnstral
Nahdia/ActionDan

SOLID SIXES:

Shoshin
MariaR
Espeonage

FINICKY FIVES:

the worst
Fire Assassin
DeasVail
Vaxkiller

UNFORTUNATE FOURS:

NicoRobin
ReubenWasFine

IN-BETWEEN THREES:

Srceenplay

TERRIBLE TWOS:

TehBrawlGuy
PenguinPower

ZOMBIFY THESE ZEROES:

Pine/TwoInAMillion
Since then, PenguinPower has become a zero, but I will detail that later; otherwise, this remains unchanged and is my reference point.

I'll begin by stating, most of my reads come from meta combined with motivations: what I expect to see as either alignment. I can do this for almost the entire playerlist to some extent, but some of these reads are going to have a stronger base than others. With that established...

Chara:
My Chara townread comes primarily from having many games' experience with it. I hesitate to Chare my past experience (as my meta comes from first-hand exposure, linking to examples would be traceable to my main), but the Chararal Chist of it is that Chara always Chows a strong aptitude for forwarding a town wincon. (Okay I'll stop that now.) When Chara is town, it demonstrates this by providing a transparent thought process where its reasoning can be traced, step by step, from beginning to end. This trait, in of itself, isn't town, but what amplifies it is the consistency and the delivery of it. It's not only the process itself, but the content therein. While Chara is not an elite punhunter, Chara's process still provides reasonable town positions to hold.

This is not something Chara can fake convincingly. You can always tell Chara is town by it demonstrating the genuine attempt to game solve, furthering the town wincon in the process. In spite of Chara not being an elite punhunter, in its own way, you can still hold a certain burden of proficiency to it; if Chara's stances don't seem reasonable positions to hold, then it could be pun. However, Chara's content this game
does
show reasonable stances, with reasonable justifications. I follow the process, even if I don't fully agree with it. I agree with more than I don't, and understand how Chara is getting from point A to point B. All of this strongly suggests town.

Taly:
If you Tally his posts, it should be immediately obvious why I hold this read. He has the highest post count in this game by far, and in those posts, constantly, neverending, there is content where he explains his reads, justifies his stances, asks questions, and engages players. Not in of itself enough to be town because tryhard pun is a thing, but when you look at the nature of the content it becomes clear he isn't just doing "busywork". His content builds off of itself; he follows through on the content, and when his stances change, there is a logical progression in the shift.

When he presents posts, he does so without an attempt to force us to wolf it down. This violetly aggressive pushing shows a desire to work with others in a way difficult, but not quite impossible, to fake. He is similar to Chara in this regard, but I don't have the same level of familiarity with him to be as confident on my read here as I do on Chara.

Dunnstral:
I may have been a little hasty in having him this high, but I feel this is his town game off of what little he has provided. Admittedly, he lurks as both alignments but initial signs point to town.

Nahdia/ActionDan:
This read comes from ActionDan, obviously. ActionDan didn't contribute much before leaving the game, but what he did give was enough to make me instantly feel this is his towngame. When ActionDan is town, I expect his reads to be fairly competent, and also to have some level of synchronization with mine. He was suspicious of Screenplay before even I was, and also noted suspicion on TehBrawlGuy well before the thought crossed my mind. Does this mean his reads are right, of course not, but the fact he saw the same slots I see as suspect before I did is an instantly promising sign. His analysis of Espeonage is fairly good as well, and I thought his position on Chara/Deas was indicative of solid, critical thinking of a type difficult to fake as pun.

However, the lack of overall activity and his natural competency as a pun player keep this from being a read I would more strongly Act on. Counterbalancing that, given he was replaced I'd say that isn't Danning at all, so I may be promoting Nahdia's slot.

Shoshin:
Shoshin is one of the players in this game I am least-familiar with, so I can't speak about her with any meta-based experience. However, just off of her play, I felt that her content was indicative of town solving. and are comments that could come from pun, but I lean town on. Many of the directions she's headed have felt like good ones; I've liked the inquiries in posts such as , , , , , , , , , , and . There's good analysis in . However, I'm a little concerned that a great amount of what she has done doesn't appear to have much follow-through to it. This is mitigated by the times I can see it (for instance, the continued Screenplay push), but there are many times where I don't see her evolution in process, keeping me from promoting her. Shoshi's reasonably town, yet not locktown.

MariaR:
I have extensive experience with Maria. I'm not at the point where I can soulread her (not even remotely close), but I still have a reasonable baseline for what she'll be like as town, and initial signs are promising. However, this is not something I can lock in because the best ally in reading her is time we've not had; you never know, something might Mar my Rid there later.

Espeonage:
I don't actually have a good ability to read Espeonage even though I've spied on plenty of his games before. He's a little difficult to pin down; a fair amount of his content
has
made me question him, but he always ninjas his way out by the end. It's mostly the little things which give him this rating; I liked his lighthearted banter seen in such places as , balanced nicely by more serious gamesolving. Many of his prods have felt good, yet this boon is ruined by the conclusions reached from them; his stated reads are, by and large, backwards from what I would expect. Espeonage is reasonably competent, yet all the players I'm suspicious of (Pine, PenguinPower, TehBrawlGuy, Screenplay) are players he's giving passes for whatever reason, even if he had genuine inquiries.

the worst:
Another player I can't reliably read, albeit in part owing to lack of extensive experience. the worst case scenario would be him as pun, but I don't have any reason to suspect he is. He doesn't particularly make me feel town, but lacking a reason to punread him, he may actually be worthy of promotion.

Fire Assassin:
Though I have the experience necessary to meta read Fire Assassin
in theory
, in practice I simply don't know what I'm doing with him and pretending I do would be detrimental. I have no clue what to look for; I have no tells on him; I don't know what indicates he's town or pun. I can tell you overall on his play alone, the content he has produced hasn't been a Sin, but if there is a strong town Fire, I've yet to see it lit. If I had to make a call, it would be town, but I would do so with no confidence whatsoever.

This is the midway point in my reads, and unfortunately I need to take a break to attend to something which came up, so this makes a good stopping point.
Let me give an Alternative perspective.
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:20 pm

Post by Srceenplay »

In post 531, Nahdia wrote:Alternatively, we just don't publish our lists before the ranking phase, we do so afterwards. Giving everyone a pass to lie about their reads is just shooting ourselves in the foot and randoming makes zero sense. Even if scum are able to save themselves in this phase, we'll still clean out some scummy town.
Ok. I’m fine with this.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:20 pm

Post by the worst »

In post 414, Chara wrote:i am interested in why he's now locktown to worst, though.
heavytown more so than locktown, it's a gamestate mind melding thing I experienced while going through Taly's posts which I haven't experienced before and totally didn't expect
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:21 pm

Post by Srceenplay »

Pun make your next wall has a paragraph about me.
I feel just like a footnote.
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:21 pm

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In post 420, MariaR wrote:Ratings are hard to figure out because I need to find where to put my townreads, the people I want alive, the people I want dead, and the people I sr.
change PP to a 10
this is a good post imo
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:23 pm

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I like Maria
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:25 pm

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In post 459, Pine wrote:So hey you guyz

EP was just in the Fox Discord just now, and told me that Brawl is Town. Like legit confTown. Seems SUPER UNPROFESSIONAL to me, but whatev.

They also hinted that if we were smart, we’d downvote Punreader. I dunno. They might be drunkmodding.
I lol'd
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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:27 pm

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In post 487, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 459, Pine wrote:So hey you guyz

EP was just in the Fox Discord just now, and told me that Brawl is Town. Like legit confTown. Seems SUPER UNPROFESSIONAL to me, but whatev.

They also hinted that if we were smart, we’d downvote Punreader. I dunno. They might be drunkmodding.
Why not listmod here and replace out?
yikes

@srceen did you not realise Pine was shitposting?
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Post by TehBrawlGuy »

In post 531, Nahdia wrote: TBG really needs to stop talking shop and get back to scumhunting.


Cool, can we start with you?
In post 532, Nahdia wrote:I hereby declare anyone after this point who makes a post purely mechanical in nature will provoke my eternal ire and I will campaign for their death forevermore.
Straight up throttling discussion on mechanics is absolutely not pro-town in nature, especially when the players involved have already established scum reads. If and when we see flips we don't want to see after today, I'll be looking at you.

I could maybe buy that you're just super interested in scumhunting over mechanics discussion if it wasn't for the end day vote and lack of any engagement with me w/r/t my reads. As it stands it just looks to me like you're attempting to powerwolf your way into silencing discussion that helps the Town.
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:29 pm

Post by Srceenplay »

In post 541, the worst wrote:
In post 487, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 459, Pine wrote:So hey you guyz

EP was just in the Fox Discord just now, and told me that Brawl is Town. Like legit confTown. Seems SUPER UNPROFESSIONAL to me, but whatev.

They also hinted that if we were smart, we’d downvote Punreader. I dunno. They might be drunkmodding.
Why not listmod here and replace out?
yikes

@srceen did you not realise Pine was shitposting?
No.
That’s why I asked for clarification.
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:30 pm

Post by Espeonage »

I don't want day to end because I'm kinda still forming solid reads.
Don't @ me.
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:31 pm

Post by the worst »

In post 543, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 541, the worst wrote:
In post 487, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 459, Pine wrote:So hey you guyz

EP was just in the Fox Discord just now, and told me that Brawl is Town. Like legit confTown. Seems SUPER UNPROFESSIONAL to me, but whatev.

They also hinted that if we were smart, we’d downvote Punreader. I dunno. They might be drunkmodding.
Why not listmod here and replace out?
yikes

@srceen did you not realise Pine was shitposting?
No.
That’s why I asked for clarification.
yikes
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:36 pm

Post by the worst »

I have 3 townreads I like a lot : ]
a few I like less

someone tell me how to feel about DV/TBG or talk to me about it
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:36 pm

Post by Errantparabola »

Votecount 1.3


Espeonage
(2): the worst, TehBrawlGuy
Fire Assassin
(1): NicoRobin
PenguinPower
(1): Taly
Shoshin
(1): Srceenplay
Taly
(1): PenguinPower
the worst
(1): Shoshin

Not Voting
(11): Punreader, MariaR, DeasVail, Espeonage, Dunnstral, ActionDan, TwoInAMillion, Fire Assassin, ReubenWasFine, Chara, Vaxkiller

--

End The Day
(1): Nahdia
(10 needed for majority)

Deadline in (expired on 2018-06-17 08:11:00)


Prodding ReubenWasFine and Vaxkiller.
did another ms user do something lovely? recognize their achievements here!

Today's modern mafia consumer demands dozens, nay, hundreds of roles that are vanilla cops.
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:39 pm

Post by Espeonage »

In post 546, the worst wrote:I have 3 townreads I like a lot : ]
a few I like less

someone tell me how to feel about DV/TBG or talk to me about it
I am getting Brawl's intentions are genuinely town and wanting to gamesolve. Recent pages have really gotten that to a much better read from when I was liking DV's case.

On that note, I liked DVs case on TBG at the time and felt he truly believed it which means town.
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:47 pm

Post by TehBrawlGuy »

In post 547, Errantparabola wrote:
Votecount 1.3


Espeonage
(2): the worst, TehBrawlGuy
Fire Assassin
(1): NicoRobin
PenguinPower
(1): Taly
Shoshin
(1): Srceenplay
Taly
(1): PenguinPower
the worst
(1): Shoshin

Not Voting
(11): Punreader, MariaR, DeasVail, Espeonage, Dunnstral, ActionDan, TwoInAMillion, Fire Assassin, ReubenWasFine, Chara, Vaxkiller

--

End The Day
(1): Nahdia
(10 needed for majority)

Deadline in (expired on 2018-06-17 08:11:00)


Prodding ReubenWasFine and Vaxkiller.
@mod, i voted PP a while back

In post 411, TehBrawlGuy wrote:VOTE: pp

I buy the claim, I just think he's lying about the alignment of it. That's a straight-on perfect Scum role.
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