SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE

[Pine]

Pine where you at here with scum/town

Your usually more opinionated... but i ... have missed some.

I started trying to score people earlier based on reads, but there's just a giant gulf in the middle because half the playerlist is lurky as fuck.

MariaR, DeasVail, Espeonage, Dunnstral, Nahdia, ReubenWasFine, Vaxkiller, the worst, NicoRobin, Srceenplay, Shoshin

10-Pine
10-TehBrawlGuy
10-Chara
9-Taly
8-Fire Assassin
7
6
6
5
5
4
4
3
2
1
0-Nahdia
0-Penguin Power
0-Punreader

[Pine]

Also ftr I think Penguin Power is Town these days, but I don't want to take that risk. Those roles are essentially counterclaims of one another, so Town!PP gets a 21-gun salute as he goes down.

Unless he flips scum, in which case the salute is more for turning my read around at the last minute rather than for an honorable sacrifice.

@TW: I think it was you who mentioned not wanting to downvote PP - this is why you can't. Stay the course. You can't dismiss the possibility that it's well-executed AtE. I respect PP as a player too much to dismiss that possibility.

[Shoshin]

I started trying to score people earlier based on reads, but there's just a giant gulf in the middle because half the playerlist is lurky as fuck.

Most of the players you're not ranking aren't lurky at all...

[Punreader]

Spoiler: Understanding of my Role

Mobile posting, so I can't provide full details now, but:

I am Cheetory6, and I have a Conditional Bulletproof.
The main condition is me being the most popular player.

This isn't quite as broken as it sounds because there IS a second condition, but for obvious reasons, that condition is best left unclaimed so that the pun don't know when I can/cannot be shot.

As indicated in later posts, my intention here was quite clear: the main condition to my vig

is

to be the most popular player. I

do

have a conditional bulletproof. I

do

have two conditions.

I was simply being misleading here to mask my intention; I was aiming for the vig rather than the bulletproof, because if I maintained this claim yet succeeded in obtaining the top spot, I'd be utterly vulnerable but the pun would

think

I'd be utterly invincible.

Another important detail to claim:

At least one of the numbers I have (i.e. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0) has a modified value in its weight.

It could count for nothing, it could count for half, it could count for double, it could count for triple, I'm not sure if I should claim what value it holds but what I am getting at here is that my ability to influence popularity is not the standard and has at least one property which is modified in at least one way.

I strongly suspect I am not the only player to have this type of modification.

For obvious reasons, I believe this should be at least partially claimed, if not fully claimed. It is my opinion that a failure to do so would be a punclaim.

I also believe we should claim our ratings and why the moment D2 begins, for maximum accountability.

I claimed this both for full accountability and for pointing out that if

I

have vote manipulation, others certainly do as well, and a failure to disclose this in advance would be a punclaim.

regarding Cheet's roleclaim

Since the evidence is already there for those who care to look, I should clarify I am not in fact

the scummer

Cheetory. That's my role. As the winner of the SUPP 2017, I was given some fun toys, namely the conditional BP and modified vote weight.

This early, with the aim to increase public knowledge, yeah. It's town points.

No, not really. It's a fine starting point of discussion regardless of alignment.

Here I clarify my flavor claim, along with hinting at the true nature of my role; I have multiple (rather than just one) abilities. I also hinted at my claim not being as town as assumed, because I did in fact

lie

. The lie was minor, the deception was small, and the intention should in hindsight be obvious, but unambiguously I HAVE admitted that I did tell a lie, and I was stating as such here. The lie made it not be as town as people had assumed.

I'm actually a bit concerned about "punreader".

You should be off of what I claimed, yes. It's not exactly a town-sounding set of abilities. I promise you that if I fullclaimed, you would feel much better about my slot. You would also wish I had kept my mouth shut and left it at the partial claim.

Mmm... I don't see scum-motivation here. There's no normal roles in this game, to my understanding, so why would

Pun

lie here?

And if he's scum WITH a BP, then there's probably a mechanical or role reason for this. In which case,

Pun

is actively sacrificing his role info., in the effect of getting a reaction from townies, possibly to give info.

There is an answer to this which would reveal why it is not nearly as town as you are assuming.

I don't think this is a reason I should share, but it contributes to the confidence in the action not being alignment-indicative.

Has that discussion helped you form reads?

Indirectly, yes. I'm still deciding at what time I'll reveal them. I can feasibly do it at any time, even during the night. (Role perk; yes this is a softclaim. I have Cheetory, the

winner of SUPP 2017

, as my role. It has many benefits.)

I find it odd to without more information.

It is specifically because it was done without more information it's not odd. Bulletproof is normally a power you seek to conceal, but the specific nature of my role makes it harmless, even beneficial, to half-claim it.

Here I further reinforce those concepts: the lie made it not be as town as assumed, but the truth was something which was better off not being claimed.

I have content to respond to, which I will in circa 12 hours.
DO NOT END THE DAY BEFORE I CAN EXPLAIN WHY I AM DOING THIS AND GIVE RESPONSES TO THE RESPONSES TO MY READS.

Claim: Conditional Bulletproof/Conditional Vigilante; the conditions are inverses.

I actually lied.
I DO have a conditional bulletproof, but it only protects me from those who are ranked HIGHER; I was aiming for an ungated Vig, with the illusion of being bp.

To explain, I can kill people ranked lower than I am, but they can kill me; I can't kill people ranked higher than me, but they can't kill me.

This is why PenguinPower is literally a punclaim.

Details for everything in 12 hours.

Here, people were beginning to give PenguinPower much-undeserved towncred for his claim, townreading what was actually a punclaim. I knew of this from my own role, but in order to expose PenguinPower, it was necessary for me to truthfully claim and reveal the real role so that people could understand

why

PenguinPower was specifically a punclaim. I was mobile posting at the time and thus had limited resources at my disposal, but I needed to make sure day was not ended before PenguinPower was exposed.

Protected from people below them, kills people ranked higher. That screams “self-aligned” to me.

That role sure WOULD be perfect for 3p, but unfortunately for your attempted narrative, it is not the role I claimed.

I can kill the people who can kill me; I cannot kill the people who can't kill me.

As to why I claimed? Wait 11 hours for the details, but one factor is that I can't shoot N1. I CAN, by claiming, ensure PenguinPower is eliminated via
lowest score, making it an effective substitute for a Vig.

I was still mobile posting and thus short on resources, among them time. I had to choose a post to quote, and Pine's was overall the best to allow me to clarify as much as I could in as little space as possible.

Vigging PenguinPower was something which wasn't viable, but which we could effectively get via eliminating him due to universal 0s.

pun what did you think about me accidentally shitposting half your role lmao

I internally had a nice laugh, and

almost

went and posted, "you jest, but a role similar to that is likely in the game", but at the last second I decided it would potentially tip my hand well before I had intended to. (I was planning on claiming anyway circa D3.)

PR is Cheetory. It’s entirely possible he simply wins if he’s ever on top.

No, but my abilities bear relevancy to this, as I indicated earlier. The flavor for my role indicates that I am the absolute best.

My bulletproof ability is stadium status. I am bulletproof as long as the shooter is above me in standing.
My vig ability is spreading the word. If the ranking of a player I target is below me, I'll kill them.
My ranking manipulation ability is libel and slander. It modifies at least one number's vote weight.

The combination of vig/bp feels like third party but it's tough to say either way. Probably worth investigating.

Early on? Bad strategy. Do you agree that I am EITHER: 3p OR: town?
If so, then investigating me early-on instead of investigating for town/pun is detrimental.
I do think I should be investigated

mid-game

, after we have at least 3 pun dead, but not before then. You know I have a role and am not vanilla; you know I can kill, thus tracking/following me is a waste; you know I have a gun, so a gunsmith is a waste; you can reasonably infer my roleclaim is accurate, so a rolecop is a waste; the only investigative not a waste is a cop and a cop should be looking to nail pun, not 3p, early in the game.

He's leashed now that he's claimed, and in the event he's Town he'll either draw a RB every night or see some use, and both are beneficial. The sudden addition of a no N1 modifier is kind of weird, but actually makes a lot of sense given that we have an extra death today because of rankings.

No, the reason I can't kill N1 is altogether different and should be stupidly obvious.
Rankings are done

during

N1.
Rankings are assigned at the

end

of N1.

How can I kill someone ranked lower than me before we actually have rankings?
Obviously, the answer is I can't. My role PM doesn't

tell

me I can't; it is an obvious inference from the given game mechanic. (That won't stop me from trying, but I expect Errant to tell me it's not possible.)

As for being leashed?
If the majority of the people asking for me to be leashed are in the bottom half of my reads (and that is currently the case), I refuse.
If the majority of the people asking for me to be leashed are in the top half of my reads (which is not currently the case), I will do so provided two additional conditions:

Condition #2:

I will not shoot someone in the top half of my readslist. The first reason for this would be that, obviously, someone in the top half of my readslist is more likely to outrank me (and thus make me not vig them), making it stupid to try.
The second, and far more important (and frankly, obvious) reason I won't shoot someone in the top half of my readslist is that them being in the top half of my readslist means I am townreading them and no duh, I refuse to shoot a townread because

that would be deliberately shooting at someone I think is town

, which is gamethrowing.

Condition #3:

I will not limit my vig to a single name. It must be a pool of 3-5 players, no more no less. More than five isn't really much of a leash at all, now, is it? Yet less than 3 narrows it down too much. 3-5 is the butter zone of vig names. The reason for not limiting it to a single name is also obvious enough if you think it through. If the pun know the EXACT player I am going to vig, that gives them many methods of failure otherwise unavailable to them.

By manipulating their votes, they can ensure my target is ranked higher than me (causing me to not vig them).
By doctoring my target, they can ensure my target survives a vig.
By rolestopping my target, they can ensure my target survives a vig.
If my target has an activated defensive ability, e.g. activated commute, activated bulletproof, activated pgo, then telling them I am going to shoot them allows for them to use it.
By jailkeeping my target, they can ensure my target survives a vig.
By roleblocking me, they can ensure my target survives a vig.
By jailkeeping me, they can ensure my target survives a vig.
By busdriving my target, they can ensure I vig someone we don't want dead.

That's a lot of failure methods.

In contrast, by using the pool of 3-5 names, the pun are forced to guess.
By having 3-5 names, it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder for the pun to manipulate the pool and ensure my target is ranked higher than me.
By having 3-5 names, the pun cannot guess with accuracy who I will shoot, thus cannot doctor my kill, leading them to potentially waste it if limited, use it wrong, or not use it when needed if limited.
By having 3-5 names, the pun cannot guess with accuracy who I will shoot, thus cannot rolestop my kill, leading them to potentially waste it if limited, use it wrong, or not use it when needed if limited.
By having 3-5 names, the pun cannot guess with accuracy who I will shoot, thus cannot jailkeep my kill, leading them to potentially waste it if limited, use it wrong, or not use it when needed if limited.
By having 3-5 names, the pun cannot guess with accuracy who I will shoot, thus cannot know whether using their activated defensive abilities is necessary, leading them to potentially waste them and also potentially not use them when needed.
By having 3-5 names, the pun cannot guess with accuracy who I will shoot, thus cannot know whether roleblocking me is a good or bad idea.
By having 3-5 names, the pun cannot guess with accuracy who I will shoot, thus cannot know whether jailkeeping me is a good or bad idea.
By having 3-5 names, the pun cannot guess with accuracy who I will shoot, thus making a successful busdrive unlikely.

The downside to this is that I am in fact less accountable, my actions can run afoul of town protectives targeting in the pool (unlikely as that may be given that this would be a pun pool so protectives SHOULDN'T be targeting consensus punreads), and the consequences of the pun getting it

right

are higher (for instance, say the pun DO correctly guess my target and successfully busdrive; I am placed in the rather ugly situation where two incredibly town players die overnight and my target did not, something which is statistically speaking unlikely to have occurred), but overall a pool rather than a specific name gives a much greater shot at making shots be meaningful.

This post contains further elaboration on my actions: what was going on in my head early in the game with the joke claim (which I knew was a joke claim), with further clarification on the details of my role including flavor and critically: paraphrasing my abilities, both their names and effects.

From there it is theory talk, discussing optimal investigation times (most investigatives are always a waste; the one which isn't, cop, should be focusing on nailing pun earlier in the game), plus discussing the reasons for why I am not currently letting myself be leashed and why if I do there are specific conditions that need to be met before I agree.

This can actually nicely be summed up by one post:

I indicated from the onset that I was not claiming fully. I said from the beginning that my bulletproof was not as strong as indicated. I said there was a second condition. I said I wasn't claiming fully. I said that if I claimed fully, it would make sense, but that it would be detrimental for me to have done so. I laid this all out at the beginning; I was quite clear about the nature of my claim.

When I claimed my actual role, I outlined the nature of it. I made no such claim about having that modifier. I stated that I couldn't vig N1, not that I had a modifier stating I can't vig, because my role PM doesn't indicate it at all; it is simply self-evident from the nature of the claim. My vig works off of ranking. I can't vig someone when we don't have a ranking. Ranking is done N1. Thus, I cannot vig N1.

So there's my role and how you can understand it. My process, start to finish, and what it is exactly.

[Punreader]

i feel like scum is lurking pretty hard rn.

Then you should rate Pine 0 and give a low rating to Screenplay.

[Punreader]

Spoiler: Understanding of my Stances

Free preview:

PP's last post makes me feel that PP v Taly is not TvT. Dunno which one is the Scum yet, though. I'll catch that on re-read.

It is far from a surefire thing given I have limited experience with both players, but from what I know this is fairly standard Taly play and not what I'd expect from PenguinPower if he were town. This would not be something I'd state with any level of true confidence, but it has enough where I'll back your sentiment.

This still holds. In the PenguinPower-Taly exchange, PenguinPower plays exactly to what I'd expect of his punplay, and Taly comes out looking incredibly town from the fight.

TOWNIE TENS:

Chara

EAGER EIGHTS:

Taly
Dunnstral
ActionDan

SOLID SIXES:

Shoshin
MariaR
Espeonage

FINICKY FIVES:

the worst
Fire Assassin
DeasVail
Vaxkiller

UNFORTUNATE FOURS:

NicoRobin
ReubenWasFine

IN-BETWEEN THREES:

Srceenplay

TERRIBLE TWOS:

TehBrawlGuy
PenguinPower

ZOMBIFY THESE ZEROES:

Pine/TwoInAMillion

Here I post my readslist, and deliver the promise that reasons will come in 24 hours. (As it turned out, I finished 23 hours later.)

Since then, PenguinPower has become a zero, but I will detail that later; otherwise, this remains unchanged and is my reference point.

I'll begin by stating, most of my reads come from meta combined with motivations: what I expect to see as either alignment. I can do this for almost the entire playerlist to some extent, but some of these reads are going to have a stronger base than others. With that established...

Chara:

My Chara townread comes primarily from having many games' experience with it. I hesitate to Chare my past experience (as my meta comes from first-hand exposure, linking to examples would be traceable to my main), but the Chararal Chist of it is that Chara always Chows a strong aptitude for forwarding a town wincon. (Okay I'll stop that now.) When Chara is town, it demonstrates this by providing a transparent thought process where its reasoning can be traced, step by step, from beginning to end. This trait, in of itself, isn't town, but what amplifies it is the consistency and the delivery of it. It's not only the process itself, but the content therein. While Chara is not an elite punhunter, Chara's process still provides reasonable town positions to hold.

This is not something Chara can fake convincingly. You can always tell Chara is town by it demonstrating the genuine attempt to game solve, furthering the town wincon in the process. In spite of Chara not being an elite punhunter, in its own way, you can still hold a certain burden of proficiency to it; if Chara's stances don't seem reasonable positions to hold, then it could be pun. However, Chara's content this game

does

show reasonable stances, with reasonable justifications. I follow the process, even if I don't fully agree with it. I agree with more than I don't, and understand how Chara is getting from point A to point B. All of this strongly suggests town.

Taly:

If you Tally his posts, it should be immediately obvious why I hold this read. He has the highest post count in this game by far, and in those posts, constantly, neverending, there is content where he explains his reads, justifies his stances, asks questions, and engages players. Not in of itself enough to be town because tryhard pun is a thing, but when you look at the nature of the content it becomes clear he isn't just doing "busywork". His content builds off of itself; he follows through on the content, and when his stances change, there is a logical progression in the shift.

When he presents posts, he does so without an attempt to force us to wolf it down. This violetly aggressive pushing shows a desire to work with others in a way difficult, but not quite impossible, to fake. He is similar to Chara in this regard, but I don't have the same level of familiarity with him to be as confident on my read here as I do on Chara.

Dunnstral:

I may have been a little hasty in having him this high, but I feel this is his town game off of what little he has provided. Admittedly, he lurks as both alignments but initial signs point to town.

Nahdia/ActionDan:

This read comes from ActionDan, obviously. ActionDan didn't contribute much before leaving the game, but what he did give was enough to make me instantly feel this is his towngame. When ActionDan is town, I expect his reads to be fairly competent, and also to have some level of synchronization with mine. He was suspicious of Screenplay before even I was, and also noted suspicion on TehBrawlGuy well before the thought crossed my mind. Does this mean his reads are right, of course not, but the fact he saw the same slots I see as suspect before I did is an instantly promising sign. His analysis of Espeonage is fairly good as well, and I thought his position on Chara/Deas was indicative of solid, critical thinking of a type difficult to fake as pun.

However, the lack of overall activity and his natural competency as a pun player keep this from being a read I would more strongly Act on. Counterbalancing that, given he was replaced I'd say that isn't Danning at all, so I may be promoting Nahdia's slot.

Shoshin:

Shoshin is one of the players in this game I am least-familiar with, so I can't speak about her with any meta-based experience. However, just off of her play, I felt that her content was indicative of town solving. 10 and 11 are comments that could come from pun, but I lean town on. Many of the directions she's headed have felt like good ones; I've liked the inquiries in posts such as 112, 115, 157, 164, 185, 189, 204, 257, 469, 470, and 486. There's good analysis in 337. However, I'm a little concerned that a great amount of what she has done doesn't appear to have much follow-through to it. This is mitigated by the times I can see it (for instance, the continued Screenplay push), but there are many times where I don't see her evolution in process, keeping me from promoting her. Shoshi's reasonably town, yet not locktown.

MariaR:

I have extensive experience with Maria. I'm not at the point where I can soulread her (not even remotely close), but I still have a reasonable baseline for what she'll be like as town, and initial signs are promising. However, this is not something I can lock in because the best ally in reading her is time we've not had; you never know, something might Mar my Rid there later.

Espeonage:

I don't actually have a good ability to read Espeonage even though I've spied on plenty of his games before. He's a little difficult to pin down; a fair amount of his content

has

made me question him, but he always ninjas his way out by the end. It's mostly the little things which give him this rating; I liked his lighthearted banter seen in such places as 33, balanced nicely by more serious gamesolving. Many of his prods have felt good, yet this boon is ruined by the conclusions reached from them; his stated reads are, by and large, backwards from what I would expect. Espeonage is reasonably competent, yet all the players I'm suspicious of (Pine, PenguinPower, TehBrawlGuy, Screenplay) are players he's giving passes for whatever reason, even if he had genuine inquiries.

the worst:

Another player I can't reliably read, albeit in part owing to lack of extensive experience. the worst case scenario would be him as pun, but I don't have any reason to suspect he is. He doesn't particularly make me feel town, but lacking a reason to punread him, he may actually be worthy of promotion.

Fire Assassin:

Though I have the experience necessary to meta read Fire Assassin

in theory

, in practice I simply don't know what I'm doing with him and pretending I do would be detrimental. I have no clue what to look for; I have no tells on him; I don't know what indicates he's town or pun. I can tell you overall on his play alone, the content he has produced hasn't been a Sin, but if there is a strong town Fire, I've yet to see it lit. If I had to make a call, it would be town, but I would do so with no confidence whatsoever.

This is the midway point in my reads, and unfortunately I need to take a break to attend to something which came up, so this makes a good stopping point.

Here I give my basic process, outlining that my read on PenguinPower has strengthened from punread to STRONG punread. I lay out the groundwork for the top half of my readslist, which can loosely be thought of as my townreads.

DeasVail:

DeasVail is an incredibly talented pun player, and nothing he has done is out of his punrange. In fact, a fair amount of his content is actually the sort I'd expect if he were pun. For the longest time, he was

lower

in my readslist. What actually bumped him up was, in fact, when he gave

his

reads in 307. His Intervention was an incredible step in the right direction.

Though it's not impossible for him to distance/bus and it's a certainty my reads are far from perfect (and thus, that he could be pun that pushes town players I'm punreading), the significant overlap in reads and his explanation of his process all the same was enough to remove him from the lower half of my reads. Altogether, while he has a permanent Vail preventing me from putting him much higher, he is still someone I'd say is more likely town than not.

Vaxkiller:

Vaxkiller also has gone on a rollercoaster in my reads, from a six to a four before I settled on five. To some extent, he Vaxes me; I don't have a reliable way of reading his contribution. However, some of his pushes, while containing some...questionable...reasoning, look like they are genuinely going in the right direction. Not a killer-strong read, but enough that I want to keep him in the game longer.

NicoRobin:

Nico's not reacting in the way I would expect her to if she were town, but I want to wait longer before committing to this, because she also lurks/flakes plenty as town and this could be one of those times. If she does the thing I am expecting her to do as either alignment, I'll have a better handle on her.

ReubenWasFine:

There isn't much here and I have no game experience with Reuben, but Reuben's contributions to this game have been...lackluster. Not condemning, but certainly not endearing.

Screenplay:

Screenplay's contribution this game on the other hand have been somewhat indicative of pun. He is also fairly lackluster, but the difference is I have the experience with him to know that if he were town he

shouldn't

be. None of his contributions in this game have been even remotely endearing, and yet I've seen plenty of content sending up red flags, as early as 106. 108 was hollow as well, with no purpose behind it. His reads such as in 177 are opposite what they should be, and he is someone who I respect as a punhunter. Being on vacation feels like more of an excuse than anything else; he is posting plenty, he is reading everything (both of these are self-evident if you look at his iso), and yet in spite of this he is doing virtually nothing.

TehBrawlGuy:

This is another player I don't have much experience with, but his posting has continued to get worse. I'm having trouble explaining this one at the moment, so I'll try to tackle him in a separate post.

PenguinPower:

No need for me to explain my read here. I can simply recycle what I said on him before.

PenguinPower had an incredibly town entrance, which was natural; there was absolutely nothing artificial or fake in his opening. This earned him the spot as my penultimate townread. Since then, there has been a perfect blend of being lighthearted and scumhunting; he's neither fluff posted nor been super serious. That is exactly what I would expect of him as town. Pending some major change, my townread there is never shifting its strength.

I have no feelings on Titus right now. I am very skeptical of people who town read me D1 (outside a very small set of players), especially when they don't provide a reason as to why they town read me when asked.

I provided my reasoning.

I'll bite the bait though, tell me about this PP read.

I already did; you should have paid attention the first time.

Yea, but...I'm policy lynching...uh....

Power to you, my friend. I believe you have no place in a penitentiary.

PenguinPower had an incredibly town entrance, which was natural; there was absolutely nothing artificial or fake in his opening. This earned him the spot as my penultimate townread. Since then, there has been a perfect blend of being lighthearted and scumhunting; he's neither fluff posted nor been super serious. That is exactly what I would expect of him as town. Pending some major change, my townread there is never shifting its strength.

This still holds. I am quite positive you have been scumhunting and you yourself know that to be true. If you want me to point out the more 'lighthearted' content, I can.

Except this game, just invert it; PenguinPower's entrance this game was incredibly stilted. His posting this game has been entirely super-serious; he is altogether missing the lighthearted aspect. His focus has been too much on mechanics and not enough on punhunting. Add in that the role he claimed is literally a pun role, and he is a solid punread.

Pine:

I described the threefold reasons for this read briefly before.

Pine, the short version is that this is Pine transparently being a punfuck. I am intimately familiar with his meta as both alignments and I guarantee you his contribution this game is him as pun. I can cite multiple behavioral tells to this effect, from what content he is giving, what reads he has given, to the ways he has given it and I will do precisely that in the full version. He had no clue he was playing with

me

, so he didn't properly hide his tells that give him away to me.

The way Pine gave his content was in his posting gimmick. Pine was giving his reads through the "hey Errant got really drunk and slipped in discord..." method. The mod may have told him to stop, but without the mod intervening there, he would have continued to use that gimmick for the whole game.

I can cite multiple references to this, but most famously would in fact be Civilization, something Nahdia should be all too aware of. Pine uses gimmicks to mask his pun content, as a way of hiding in plain sight. They have served him well in the past, acting as a way to engage others in an entertaining manner but also lead to them underestimating him.

Prior to the gimmick, which brings me to the first point, Pine was contributing nothing. This was part of where the punread originated. Pine willingly replaced into the game. What did he do after replacing in? Nothing. Pine replaced in at 170, page 7, on June 5th.
Pine's first content was 253, a singular line on PenguinPower echoing thread consensus (more on that when we get to point two), but his first full contribution is 459, page 19, on June 9th.

He has given no reasons for his reads. (The gimmick also helps to serve mask a lack of reasons.) And he has given reads on only a small fraction of the players in the game. And he has done nothing since choosing to replace in. I know Pine, and while he may adamantly deny it, as pun he is a lurker, both in the sense of not posting often and actively lurking a fair amount of the time he posts.

Were he town, he would have upon replacing in done his absolute best to give content in spite of having not read the game. Pine replacing in as town needs not have read the whole game to contribute opinions, but the Pine of this game did nothing...except for, when he did go with his gimmicky reads, defend the players in the game most likely to be pun.

Why is that condemning?

Because Pine is the strongest anti-busser pun player on the site. He will distance. He'll even vote a punbuddy. He might 'bus' in the sense that he'll pine after a punbuddy who makes sense to push but given the slightest excuse he'll abort it if he sees an opportunity to let the punbuddy live. And he sees opportunities even where by all rights none

should

be. By that I mean he sees a chance to abort a bus where other players insist to continue one.

This is particularly pertinent given PenguinPower. If you assume PenguinPower is pun, then 253 is perfect distancing. Given the first opportunity, he reverses the read to being a townread. And his other noteworthy townread? TehBrawlGuy. The two players in the game aside from Pine, most likely to be pun, and Pine townreads them.

His approach this game has been pun. His content this game has been pun. This is, 100% guaranteed to be his pungame. He would never have played this way if he had known I was in the game, but since he was unaware of my presence, he thought that this strategy would go unnoticed.

Here I go into extensive detail about the bottom half of my reads, wherein you can see my punreads. In particular, I write multiple paragraphs outlining precisely why I feel Pine and PenguinPower in particular are pun.

Protected from people below them, kills people ranked higher. That screams “self-aligned” to me.

I’m not opposed to leashing it.

That role sure WOULD be perfect for 3p, but unfortunately for your attempted narrative, it is not the role I claimed.

Pine was misrepresenting the nature of the role I claimed, which if left unchallenged would have led to support of the 3p narrative, allowing him to get away with diverting discussion away from punhunting and onto mechanics.

Vaxkiller: Vaxkiller also has gone on a rollercoaster in my reads, from a six to a four before I settled on five. To some extent, he Vaxes me; I don't have a reliable way of reading his contribution. However, some of his pushes, while containing some...questionable...reasoning, look like they are genuinely going in the right direction. Not a killer-strong read, but enough that I want to keep him in the game longer.

This "rollercoaster from a six to a four to a five" feels fake.

Do you want me to do a Post By Post Analysis of Vaxkiller to prove what I mean? I kid you not, I can and will do it to show

precisely

why he has gone up and down and all around on my reads list.

Vaxkiller: Vaxkiller also has gone on a rollercoaster in my reads, from a six to a four before I settled on five. To some extent, he Vaxes me; I don't have a reliable way of reading his contribution. However, some of his pushes, while containing some...questionable...reasoning, look like they are genuinely going in the right direction. Not a killer-strong read, but enough that I want to keep him in the game longer.

This "rollercoaster from a six to a four to a five" feels fake.

Workin my way backwards, but yeah this confuses me as well. I'm a roller coaster but i Vex him, I push some, but something i do are questionable.. I look genuine, but not a strong read. I mean it dont get more wishy washy than that.

Vaxkiller, I realize English is not your first language, but perhaps you should look up the idiomatic expression like a roller coaster.

"Wishy-washy" is

precisely the definition of the expression

.
Yes you have gone up, yes you have gone down. Yes, you have things I like, yes you have things I don't like. That is precisely what I said my read on you was: uncertain, varying, constantly changing and shifting.

I also don't like how Pun's rankings -- 10, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 0 -- don't match up to the actual rankings -- 10, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0 -- seems like a very unnatural way to think about the game if you're actually trying to sort reads into a meaningful rankings list.

Your mistake is in thinking it's a

rankings

list.

It is not.

It is a

reads

list. Strongest town, strong town, weak town, various shades of null, potential pun, slight pun, pun, STRONG pun, approximately.

Read it again with that understanding and you will have a much better handling on where I am coming from.

Screenplay: Screenplay's contribution this game on the other hand have been somewhat indicative of pun. He is also fairly lackluster, but the difference is I have the experience with him to know that if he were town he shouldn't be. None of his contributions in this game have been even remotely endearing, and yet I've seen plenty of content sending up red flags, as early as 106. 108 was hollow as well, with no purpose behind it. His reads such as in 177 are opposite what they should be, and he is someone who I respect as a punhunter. Being on vacation feels like more of an excuse than anything else; he is posting plenty, he is reading everything (both of these are self-evident if you look at his iso), and yet in spite of this he is doing virtually nothing.

I’m not sure who you are but this is bullshit. You have went way down on my list.

If it were bullshit as you say, then you'd be able to explain why it was bullshit. You're not as incompetent/lackluster as you are pretending to be.

I think their being stilted is pretty well excused by there being no votes. I think their progression towards and the way they claimed came off as town.

I very strongly do not think a lack of votes justifies being stilted. It is an excuse for slacking off, nothing more, especially given that the mod announced from the onset a willingness to track the votes even though they hold no weight. Check the timing for yourself. That is Errantparabola's first votecount; the precedence for voting had already been established.

PenguinPower's complaint was a full 94 posts later. Check the timestamps as well. Errantparabola's post 100 has no edit mark. That means it was not edited at a later date. That means it was made on Monday, June 4th; PenguinPower's post complaining was on Wednesday, June 6th. The moderator was

already providing a service that PenguinPower was complaining about a lack of

. His complaint was thus an excuse. Nothing more; the stilted nature of his entrance cannot be reasonably explained by it.

Furthermore, the progression of his claim is the opposite of town. He didn't immediately counter my claim. It was only when players began to show suspicion of his contributions to the game that he provided his claim. When that claim proved to make things worse rather than better, he fullclaimed. He knew he was getting in trouble, and was hoping the truth would make him look better.

This was one of the contributing factors in my decision to fullclaim. PenguinPower's claim progression was meant to protect him from being voted off N1...and if I didn't realclaim, he'd have gotten away with it because people like you were buying it.

Here I respond to the people who responded to where I explain my reads. I offer to show in greater detail, a post by post take on Vaxkiller as to why my read there has shifted so much. I clarify that I am not producing rankings lists, but READS lists. I then go on the offensive, both by pressuring Screenplay, and by outlining why PenguinPower is pun.

i want to say Pine is scum, but i'm finding it difficult to rationalize what scum Pine's plan is this game, at all.

I already outlined it. Pine's team this game has some reasonable distancing, but is largely playing the same game: lackluster posting, lurking, and not contributing much. Giving the bare minimum to pass by, not drawing attention. Letting the active posters duke it out in town V town fighting, and subtly supporting this from the background. Focusing on mechanics talk rather than punhunting, for cheap towncred while avoiding giving hard stances that are difficult to back out of.

Is this an original plan? Why no, no it isn't. Is it a "boring" plan? Why yes, yes it is; it is thoroughly uninspired. Why doesn't that disqualify it from being Pine's plan? Because Pine is incredibly pragmatic and opportunistic. If he sees an opening to use a strategy, it doesn't matter how boring/unoriginal it is. He'll use it anyway because a plan which is boring yet practical is a more surefire way to win the game. He doesn't need to make flashy maneuvers. Flashy maneuvers are Pine's desperation moves, when he is backed into a corner.

The most unorthodox part of Pine's pun stratagem lies in his nightkills, something we haven't witnessed yet. His dayplay is not something very creative as he has no need to shift gears from the plan he knows will work, until something (like a player who is on an alt that secretly has loads of experience with him he was unaware of) throws a wrench in the plan. And he doesn't even enact that until the last possible moment; if he thinks he can salvage his original plan, at every opportunity, he will.

I can cite Turn of Camn as the most fresh example of this; at every point he was adamantly against altering the plan to account for Ellibereth, until he was given no choice. You were there so you should know precisely what I am talking about. Pine's play is his textbook punplay this game. He hasn't shifted gears yet because he still holds hope his plan will work, so it's still on display for all to see.

Here I explain what Pine's pungame is, and why his plan this game is it.

Pine is scummy on this page

Immensely so, and it is proof of the concept I am referring to.

He is shifting focus away from punhunting, and onto theory discussion. Theory discussion has the benefit of looking town and can offer him immediate towncred, while also distracting the town because theory discussion bears no ACTUAL alignment relevance.

Here I bring up by proxy examples of the behavior I am citing from Pine which are his pungame, and explaining why they are indicative of him being pun.

I'm certain that he half claimed, then admitted to lying about his claim, then added a N1 modifier after being asked to vig me.

This is a fine narrative but one which fails to live up to reality.

This was a proxy-callout of the punteam. Pine, TehBrawlGuy, and PenguinPower have all taken similar stances on the nature of my role, as if there were a discussion behind closed doors.

Since I know that's not a neighborhood with daychat, there's only one option that comes to mind.

If it were bullshit as you say, then you'd be able to explain why it was bullshit. You're not as incompetent/lackluster as you are pretending to be.

That’s bull shit as well because you would know that I am incompetent at explaining.

No, you claim you are but you're not. You explain things better than you are pretending. Furthermore, you actually

try

to explain things. You don't leave things as empty statements; you still explain in spite of the "incompetence" at explaining.

I know this in part because I have a similar perspective as pun; I underestimate my own competency as town and pretend I am a worse town player than I actually am, and

this

is what I am saying you are doing. You are stating you are incompetent when I know for a fact you are not actually that incompetent. You likely have a self-perception you're not that incompetent, and thus as pun you "mute" your own competency.

Perhaps I am not explaining this as well as I should, but I feel my message gets across. There is a disconnect between the level of skill I have witnessed from you when you've been town, and the level of skill you are displaying in this game. That disconnect most likely originates from a perception of "I'm not a good town player, so I need to pretend I'm not a good player", leading to you as pun being less competent than you should be.

Another way of stating this:
I do not believe you're lying about thinking it's bullshit.
I do not believe you

think

you're lying about being incompetent.
I believe you fully

think

that you're incompetent as town.
But I believe that perception is flawed, and that you're

not actually incompetent as town in spite of believing you're incompetent as town

.
And

due to this flawed perception, as pun you act incompetently

.
Which introduces the disconnect.

Here I engage Screenplay and go into greater detail as to why I am punreading him.

i feel like scum is lurking pretty hard rn.

Then you should rate Pine 0 and give a low rating to Screenplay.

Here I directly call Pine and Screenplay lurkers, as the most blatant examples.

That's the most important takeaways from my content.

[Pine]

I started trying to score people earlier based on reads, but there's just a giant gulf in the middle because half the playerlist is lurky as fuck.

Most of the players you're not ranking aren't lurky at all...

And yet a lot of them are. I didn't say ALL of them were. The worst, for example, is active but I can't decide where to put him. I want to rate him highly, but I have a nagging worry that he's playing me.

[Punreader]

And the coup de grâce,

Winning the game potentially as early as D2

The plan is simple.

1. Universally vote Pine a 0 to eliminate him.
   
2. Universally vote PenguinPower a 0 to eliminate him.
   
3. Rate the pool of players I am to vig fairly low: TehBrawlGuy, Screenplay, and ReubenWasFine gets the pool of 3 players necessary.
   
4. If I can vig N1, I shoot one of the 3. If it hits scum, we're down three pun.
   
5. And on D2, we lynch the fourth and final pun.

No need for a spoiler tag because this one is short enough to not warrant one.

If you wish to see why Pine and PenguinPower are pun, then it is available in my content which can be found here.
The VAST majority of my content, literally over 50% of it, is outlining the precise reasons why PenguinPower and Pine are pun.
Screenplay also takes up a reasonable amount of that time as well.
The one read I have failed to explain which I acknowledge I need to is TehBrawlGuy.

[Punreader]

I'd additionally like to point out:

Sup friend.

Still self-immolating I see.

You still suck at reading me.

Pine has a long history of a particular tactic.
When Pine has any sort of "oh fuck" realization, his response to this is to do

exactly this

and present a nonchalant response in an attempted to appear unfazed by the outcome. It's his first self-defense mechanism to being caught red-handed.

[Chara]

hey i've decided i like Punreader for today and i'll follow them. mainly, it helps that their reads line up with mine anyway.

[the worst]

I have a feeling abt who Punreader might be

[the worst]

I have a feeling abt who Punreader might be

update: I'm probably right and if so they're likely either actually a serial killer or just being totally honest.

[the worst]

probs also not scum with pine for what that's worth

[Pine]

I'd additionally like to point out:

Sup friend.

Still self-immolating I see.

You still suck at reading me.

Pine has a long history of a particular tactic.
When Pine has any sort of "oh fuck" realization, his response to this is to do

exactly this

and present a nonchalant response in an attempted to appear unfazed by the outcome. It's his first self-defense mechanism to being caught red-handed.

You're quite right! It is a favored tactic. I like it because it mirrors when I am actually unfazed.

You are incorrect. You've never been able to read me well, and it shows. Painfully.

While we're on the subject of favorite tactics, yours is to go all-out when things look bleak, throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. You also write 1000 words when 100 will do, in an effort to appear intent and focused.

[Nahdia]

popping in to say unless i missed something, the people using setup spec to say one of punreader and penguin power must be scum should feel bad. setup spec is bad. it always ends it suffering.

[Punreader]

I'd additionally like to point out:

Sup friend.

Still self-immolating I see.

You still suck at reading me.

Pine has a long history of a particular tactic.
When Pine has any sort of "oh fuck" realization, his response to this is to do

exactly this

and present a nonchalant response in an attempted to appear unfazed by the outcome. It's his first self-defense mechanism to being caught red-handed.

You're quite right! It is a favored tactic. I like it because it mirrors when I am actually unfazed.

The problem with that is you aren't actually unfazed as town, even when you know the accusation to be wrong. You get emotional and react negatively to what you see as being bullshit.

This is actually the inverse problem of Screenplay: overestimating how calm you'd be as town.

You are not nearly this serene as town.

[Pine]

I frequently am, actually.

I don’t feel threatened, and I don’t feel that Town is off tilting at windmills.

THAT is what gets me negative and emotional.

[the worst]

I trust pun's claim but this play is bad
lean town on pine tentatively

[the worst]

I trust pun's claim but this play is bad
lean town on pine tentatively

[the worst]

00ps

[TehBrawlGuy]

He's leashed now that he's claimed, and in the event he's Town he'll either draw a RB every night or see some use, and both are beneficial. The sudden addition of a no N1 modifier is kind of weird, but actually makes a lot of sense given that we have an extra death today because of rankings.

No, the reason I can't kill N1 is altogether different and should be stupidly obvious.
Rankings are done

during

N1.
Rankings are assigned at the

end

of N1.

How can I kill someone ranked lower than me before we actually have rankings?
Obviously, the answer is I can't. My role PM doesn't

tell

me I can't; it is an obvious inference from the given game mechanic. (That won't stop me from trying, but I expect Errant to tell me it's not possible.)

No, that's not how the rankings work. I have absolutely no idea why you think that's the case.

MECHANIC INFORMATION:

- Day 1 is lynchless and will end in 14 days unless a majority of players vote to end the day early.
- Between Day 1 and Night 1, a Ranking Phase will take place, wherein players send their rankings of players in the game in a PM to me. The ranking values are as follows:

{10, 10, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0}

In short, 3 tens, 3 zeros, 2 fours, 2 fives, and 2 sixes. You can do this by sending me assigned point values or a ranking from top to bottom (10 to 0). Keep in mind that in accordance with SUPP guidelines, one of the tens is for yourself.
- All scores will be privately averaged and ranked. Ties will be resolved by # of 10s, # of 9s, and so on.
- The lowest two ranked players will immediately die at the end of the Ranking Phase.

Also, and I'm going to get a little bitchy here, so bear with me, how in the fuck did nobody else address this in the page since Pun made this post? I get that apparently the thread has something against mechanics, but holy shit you guys, there's one major difference between this and a standard game. How hard is it to keep track of that

one thing

? Some of you can criticize me for paying a lot of attention to mechanics, but at least I'm paying attention to them. Shit like this is the reason I do.

Anyway, onto the actual usefulness of this. I'm 99% this is Pun townslipping, or at least TP-slipping. Scum have daytalk, and I have to imagine they've been talking about rankings, so I'd wager they wouldn't make this mistake. I don't think vigilante-that-can't-shoot-N1-because-of-mechanics-except-actually-it-can makes it out of a Scum PT as an unprompted fakeclaim, but this line of events makes a lot of sense for town!pun.

Pun, I know you scumread me, but I s2g if you shoot me tonight after I reminded you you can shoot... It would be hilarious, true, but also I would hate you.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Nothing really changed rereading TBG's recent posts.

I'm starting to kinda like TBG honestly. his reactions have felt more genuine as the day has progressed and I think he's on the right track pretty much for the most part?

He's focused on mechanics sure but we have a heavily mechanically weighted d1 so I'm actually kinda feeling like that's fairly pro town.



Part of me wants to ask him for a reads list but also I hate reads lists but also were gonna be forced to do a compulsory one shortly so...... TBG can you sum up your current reads for me?

For the record, I'm against full reads lists as a general concept, because I think they're counterproductive. (until the game is small - <9p ish) They often quagmire into side topics about players not on the lynch block, and I'd rather keep my posting to things I actually want other players to focus on. When they're the norm, pestering people for reads lists is also a great way to seem Town without doing much. If you have specific questions that you want answered for whatever reason, fire away. Asking specific questions also helps me get a lens into where your mind is at.

[TehBrawlGuy]

TBG, update on your reads? Thoughts on Dunn/Maria?

I still think Dunn is town, both because I don't think he and Espe are scum together and I'm pretty sure Espe is Scum, and also because Dunn's early posting seemed to address both his role and scumhunting in good proportion. I wish he was doing more shit but meh.

Maria's openly advocating for lying and being mildly abrasive, which is pretty fearless if she's Scum but makes sense if she's Town, so probably Town.

[TehBrawlGuy]

actually on the note of lynch-block players, I really don't get Pine being pretty low on rankings. I weakly townread him. Most of his content is NAI and what there is seems to me like a townie who's just chilling waiting for the game to progress.

[the worst]

I kinda agree with you about read lists generally but in this game specifically were kinda obligated to do one at EOD1. I was thinking having a quick snippet of where your mind is at might help me calibrate my read on you but your response is understandable.