Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[Zoronos]

I really don't see another lynch happening

Come now, that's a tad reductive.
This is by far the towniest Pintu's posted all game, even if he's doing so under maximum pressure.

[pinturicchio]

Spoiler: @pintu (honestly others don't really have to read this)

How does it benefit me in this or future games to expand my scumrange?

Having a larger scumrange hurts you as a player. People will always be paranoid of you. I in part owe my towngame to the fact that I roll scum so rarely (and got replaced out of 2 scumgames) that my scumgame just never got real practice.

If you're saying that I would use this as an opportunity to show my chops as a scumplayer, sure. That was how I treated that newbie game. Those few times that I do roll scum, it's fun to show off.

But in that case I'd be showing off in terms of my play.
Not in terms of shooting myself in the foot by killing a VT-NSG, leaving all 3 PRs alive (almost guaranteeing the vig gets a 2nd shot and brings us back to evens), initiating a hypoclaim to publicise the 4th conftown,

hypoing an inno on my only scumpartner

, and nagging people to keep their hypoclaims in order to protect the cop.

If I were scum, regardless of my scumpartner, I would consider this a failure. There is literally no player here that I could see myself as scum with, thinking "You know, we really set ourselves up well!"
The damn framer got lynched D1 partially because of me, and claimed the lowest priority PR possible.

So yeah scum-me is showing off my scum chops beautifully in terms of play (my dayplay this game is leagues beyond my scum meta), but every mechanical and high-level strategic decision has been utter shit so far and scum-me should be ashamed.

Yeah Dino but you see, there's a thing called WIFOM... where doing exactly the opposite of what people expect for you to do as scum could be a good reliable thing to do to get a good game at the end. You saying "I would never do this or that as scum" is what pings me as making yourself a better scum player, for future games being able to say "yes, I would do that either as scum or town" to get better scumgames in the future. What I'm saying is, you're not shooting your own foot here as much as you're depicting it, 'cause you have so much more tells as town that losing a bit of % chance as town wouldn't affect you at all in practice.

[pinturicchio]

Also, Pintu, you're never going to convince math that he is scum.
Nobody is so cool they convince someone "Yup, I'm the scum /selfvote".
Maybe you can post him into a corner, but you do that by talking to the rest of us, not arguing at Math.

Anyway:

1. Zor: at that point 845 didn't ping me, but I believe what Dino has tried to do this whole game is like "being the reincarnation" of NSG. NSG died, revealed VT, Dino has been saying loud and clear that it was obvious that NSG was VT and that he has been following NSG' reads the whole game. It's a psichological way to make us believe he's town by making us complete the blank spaces between "NSG confirmed town --> Mathdino confirmed town". So yeah, Mathdino going on jjh when he was being focused by NSG means to me that Dino understood that jjh wasn't having a good game and it was time to get some credit. Timing is important: remember Dino's firsts impressions on jjh? It changed drastically after some time.
About HitAlt: I think that if we flip scum!Dino it basically confirms both me and HitAlt as town. I feel he's likely in the same situation I am, so yeah sure he could be partners with jjh, but so could ofrhz or ruru, but we're not pushing them 'cause they seem to be town. HitAlt doesn't have that much towncred because of his tunneling on D1; same as me, bad D1 ---> push them hard.

You maybe missed my intent.
845 was a condemnation of JJH by Math. Was that distancing? In order for a math theory to be correct, 845 must be either distancing or busing. You didn't really answer me about that.

Double-anyway. so, you think HitAlt is town. Let's move into the land where Math is town, and Blackstar is ???.
Based on your answer to Math, you believe that Blackstar + TW is the scum team. That would put them both on the bus, NSG's arguments about TW+JJH's discussion after 845 being scum theater correct. How does Blackstar tie into this? He was the L-1 vote after being on the HWS wagon. That would mean both scum were busing, the worst early and blackstar late.
This narrative would require that TW early boarded the bus, and instead of also joining that Blackstar waited until it looked inevitable (dave declared he was willing to be the -1 and Blackstar headed him off at the pass). Do you find this world reasonable or unreasonable?

Of course I'm not trying to convince Math that he's scum, but by replying to him he makes more content to be better sorted and to be sorted myself as well, it's a win win.

I don't get the difference you're trying to make about distancing or bussing. Bussing IS distancing in essence, right? So yeah, I do think he was distancing and starting to morph into NSG.

Problem with discussing about Math not being scum and start making sense with other things is complicated, 'cause of course, I'm not that convinced of TW+Blackstar together for things like you said. I think TW is totally capable of bussing a partner to get towncred himself, but I never got why NSG thought that jjh vs tw was scumtheater. I mean, if TW is scum, she was right all along, yes, but that's not the reason why I think TW could be his partner; bussing a partner to "make sense" is much more of a tell than the interaction between jjh and him.
Blackstar vote was insignificant, jjh was going to be on L-1 anyways. I would do the same as his scumpartner, in order to let jjh claim and get a PR. In my story, jjh claiming Jailkeeper could make sense if the scumteam decided that hypoclaiming innos would be enough information to know who the cop is and protect themselves from reads at the same time ('cause if a VT hypoclaims an inno on them, they won't push them in order to make sense, like what happened to me and Blackstar).

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: @pintu (honestly others don't really have to read this)

How does it benefit me in this or future games to expand my scumrange?

Having a larger scumrange hurts you as a player. People will always be paranoid of you. I in part owe my towngame to the fact that I roll scum so rarely (and got replaced out of 2 scumgames) that my scumgame just never got real practice.

If you're saying that I would use this as an opportunity to show my chops as a scumplayer, sure. That was how I treated that newbie game. Those few times that I do roll scum, it's fun to show off.

But in that case I'd be showing off in terms of my play.
Not in terms of shooting myself in the foot by killing a VT-NSG, leaving all 3 PRs alive (almost guaranteeing the vig gets a 2nd shot and brings us back to evens), initiating a hypoclaim to publicise the 4th conftown,

hypoing an inno on my only scumpartner

, and nagging people to keep their hypoclaims in order to protect the cop.

If I were scum, regardless of my scumpartner, I would consider this a failure. There is literally no player here that I could see myself as scum with, thinking "You know, we really set ourselves up well!"
The damn framer got lynched D1 partially because of me, and claimed the lowest priority PR possible.

So yeah scum-me is showing off my scum chops beautifully in terms of play (my dayplay this game is leagues beyond my scum meta), but every mechanical and high-level strategic decision has been utter shit so far and scum-me should be ashamed.

Yeah Dino but you see, there's a thing called WIFOM... where doing exactly the opposite of what people expect for you to do as scum could be a good reliable thing to do to get a good game at the end. You saying "I would never do this or that as scum" is what pings me as making yourself a better scum player, for future games being able to say "yes, I would do that either as scum or town" to get better scumgames in the future. What I'm saying is, you're not shooting your own foot here as much as you're depicting it, 'cause you have so much more tells as town that losing a bit of % chance as town wouldn't affect you at all in practice.

I invite other people to parse this and figure out whether it makes sense.

I understand there's WIFOM.

But it doesn't benefit my future scumgames to expand my scumgame. It hurts it.

Are you suggesting that I shot a VT so I can shoot PRs as scum later on and be like "hey man I've shot VTs before, don't look at me"?

[pinturicchio]

I really don't see another lynch happening

Come now, that's a tad reductive.
This is by far the towniest Pintu's posted all game, even if he's doing so under maximum pressure.

Him pushing me still after my claim makes sense coming from either town Dino or scum Dino; I did have a great claim on Tit for Tat, where I was scum and got to L-1, and by AtE I got so much towncred that not only I wasn't the lynch of that day, I got A50, our beloved mod, lynched. I still have dreams of that beautiful moment. But seriously, there's a shitton of difference between this claim and that claim, and Dino should know that.

[Mathdino]

This is by far the towniest Pintu's posted all game, even if he's doing so under maximum pressure.

Stop it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've seen scum-pintu literally request to get vigged and then start a massive end-of-day discussion when he was at maximum pressure.

Scum-pintu is townier under pressure. I'll accept a HitAlt lynch (even though I think he's definitely townier), but we're not pulling more claims.

[pinturicchio]

Spoiler: @pintu (honestly others don't really have to read this)

How does it benefit me in this or future games to expand my scumrange?

Having a larger scumrange hurts you as a player. People will always be paranoid of you. I in part owe my towngame to the fact that I roll scum so rarely (and got replaced out of 2 scumgames) that my scumgame just never got real practice.

If you're saying that I would use this as an opportunity to show my chops as a scumplayer, sure. That was how I treated that newbie game. Those few times that I do roll scum, it's fun to show off.

But in that case I'd be showing off in terms of my play.
Not in terms of shooting myself in the foot by killing a VT-NSG, leaving all 3 PRs alive (almost guaranteeing the vig gets a 2nd shot and brings us back to evens), initiating a hypoclaim to publicise the 4th conftown,

hypoing an inno on my only scumpartner

, and nagging people to keep their hypoclaims in order to protect the cop.

If I were scum, regardless of my scumpartner, I would consider this a failure. There is literally no player here that I could see myself as scum with, thinking "You know, we really set ourselves up well!"
The damn framer got lynched D1 partially because of me, and claimed the lowest priority PR possible.

So yeah scum-me is showing off my scum chops beautifully in terms of play (my dayplay this game is leagues beyond my scum meta), but every mechanical and high-level strategic decision has been utter shit so far and scum-me should be ashamed.

Yeah Dino but you see, there's a thing called WIFOM... where doing exactly the opposite of what people expect for you to do as scum could be a good reliable thing to do to get a good game at the end. You saying "I would never do this or that as scum" is what pings me as making yourself a better scum player, for future games being able to say "yes, I would do that either as scum or town" to get better scumgames in the future. What I'm saying is, you're not shooting your own foot here as much as you're depicting it, 'cause you have so much more tells as town that losing a bit of % chance as town wouldn't affect you at all in practice.

I invite other people to parse this and figure out whether it makes sense.

I understand there's WIFOM.

But it doesn't benefit my future scumgames to expand my scumgame. It hurts it.

Are you suggesting that I shot a VT so I can shoot PRs as scum later on and be like "hey man I've shot VTs before, don't look at me"?

No, what I suggest is that, by increasing the things you could do either as scum or town, you get better scumgames. Let's say there are 10 parameters for determine a player's playstyle. Let's say one of the parameters is "shooting VTs" in your case. As you say, shooting a VT is something you wouldn't do as scum, so your towngame gets a boost whenever a VT is shot. But if in all of your 10 parameters you work in favour of boosting your towngames, then your scum playstyle gets reduced to so little ways of playing that you will eventually get caught everytime at the end. What I'm implying is that loosening one of the 10 restrictions you applied into your 10 parameters, you don't affect that much your towngames in comparison to the boost you get at getting new tools for playing scum. You can do that until the marginal cost of increasing a bit more your scumgames is zero, where you will reach a perfect balance between scumplay and townplay. But of course, we know that you will have much more towngames than scumgames, so you can apply that restriction and yes, you will want to have much more towntells that you don't want to fake as scum, but not everything.

[Zoronos]

Stop it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've seen scum-pintu literally request to get vigged and then start a massive end-of-day discussion when he was at maximum pressure.

Scum-pintu is townier under pressure. I'll accept a HitAlt lynch (even though I think he's definitely townier), but we're not pulling more claims.

If I accept this supposition, then there is no eventuality where Pintu is not lynched.
"Pintu is posting scummy" -> "Pintu is scum for posting scummy, lynch him"
"Pintu is posting towny" -> "Pintu is scum for posting towny, lynch him"

If all roads lead to pintu being scum, then somewhere there is a flaw in the logic.

[pinturicchio]

This is by far the towniest Pintu's posted all game, even if he's doing so under maximum pressure.

Stop it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've seen scum-pintu literally request to get vigged and then start a massive end-of-day discussion when he was at maximum pressure.

Scum-pintu is townier under pressure. I'll accept a HitAlt lynch (even though I think he's definitely townier), but we're not pulling more claims.

As I said one post over this one (2154), don't you see any differences between this and Tit for Tat? My reaction there was pure AtE. You can ask the worst how was our last Newbie together; I was at maximum pressure there too, and my reaction was much more like this one. You have seen only one face of me working under pressure and using a fallacy assuming that I don't get townier under pressure when I'm town too. Pintu under pressure, either as scum or town, gets townier, and I have proof for both.

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos look 2158, there's the flaw.

[Mathdino]

I'm not saying you're scum for your play since the L-1.

I'm saying that your behaviour after getting basically hammered is totally NAI. In my mind, I got my lynch already and I'm talking to a dead player.

I'm trying to say that this time is more for "talking to pintu and getting reads out of him" than it is for "sorting pintu and deciding on the lynch". The lynch was already decided. I didn't not-hammer pintu because I'm having second thoughts. I did it to reiterate the ruru and ofrhz reads because I trust town-him on those.

[Mathdino]

No, what I suggest is that, by increasing the things you could do either as scum or town, you get better scumgames. Let's say there are 10 parameters for determine a player's playstyle. Let's say one of the parameters is "shooting VTs" in your case. As you say, shooting a VT is something you wouldn't do as scum, so your towngame gets a boost whenever a VT is shot. But if in all of your 10 parameters you work in favour of boosting your towngames, then your scum playstyle gets reduced to so little ways of playing that you will eventually get caught everytime at the end. What I'm implying is that loosening one of the 10 restrictions you applied into your 10 parameters, you don't affect that much your towngames in comparison to the boost you get at getting new tools for playing scum. You can do that until the marginal cost of increasing a bit more your scumgames is zero, where you will reach a perfect balance between scumplay and townplay. But of course, we know that you will have much more towngames than scumgames, so you can apply that restriction and yes, you will want to have much more towntells that you don't want to fake as scum, but not everything.

Why would I feel like I need to boost my future scumgames...?

You're seriously saying that I made a suboptimal play (shooting VT NSG) for meta reasons so I have a sliver more of a chance to win

future scumgames

over this one?

You think I'd fuck over my teammates just to expand my range for later on?

[pinturicchio]

Why would I feel like I need to boost my future scumgames...?

You're seriously saying that I made a suboptimal play (shooting VT NSG) for meta reasons so I have a sliver more of a chance to win

future scumgames

over this one?

You think I'd fuck over my teammates just to expand my range for later on?

Never said you fucked up this game to win future games, I think you're both getting a solid scumgame here and by that getting better scumgames in the future too.

[ofrhz]

- Who says you're lying about mechanics? I think that you used mechanics to leave both HitAlt and me between a rock and a hard place. I mean look at this lazy town: you say "HitAlt and pin are the optimal lynches for today" and bam! Both wagons formed.

3. Mathdino knows about that, or at least I think he should know it, and that's why I said a couple of times that he used mechanics in his favour: he hypoclaimed an inno on Blackstar, and I'm pretty much convinced that both of them are the scumteam.

I mean

Your argument is basically "scum!Mathdino propped up two mislynches: HitAlt and pintu"

So basically if Math is scum, his strategy was to:

1. Propose dave and HitAlt as the best lynches for today
2. Start townreading Dave for no reason??? Why would scum!Math do this? Maybe if Math and dave was the literal scumteam but you're not even suggesting that right now.
3. Say Pintu is towny because something Pintu said was out of his scumrange (when literally no one else would have brought this up or even noticed it) and vote HitAlt
4. Then swing back around and say maybe scum!Pintu could've faked that
5. Townread HitAlt a little more based on his D2 posting and vote pintu (again, what is the motivation for Math backing away from HitAlt here)

...idk man. This progression doesn't seem to me as coming from scum. It's not at all obvious to me that he was trying to push you (pintu) from the outset.

The whole "Mathdino proclaimed an inno on BlackStar thing as a mechanic to save his scumbuddy" is kind of unbelievable as well considering NSG had only two strong townreads that I know of and BlackStar was one of them.

5. I assume that I was rolecopped last night, and that's why Mathdino has been so eager to push me, since he knew I would claim VT and that I was the most likely mislynch for today.

I don't think Mathdino as scum needs to literally rolecop someone to know they're VT, given his perfect record of identifying PRs to NK as scum. So even if you wanted to keep pushing the argument that scum!Mathdino chose this game of all games to NOT kill a PR, this logic still doesn't make that much sense.

If you're town and math is scum, I just don't think you were the easiest mislynch today at all. If Math wanted to pick on a VT to push through a mislynch, it wouldn't make sense for that to necessarily be you. But you seem quite confident this was the case.

Also scum!you couldn't have claimed cop. I think too many people picked up on the inconsistency between your BlackStar inno and your BlackStar null read.

so many pedits, don't have much time to read them

[ofrhz]

Is ofrhz non-mechanically sortable in this game

wait seriously?

[pinturicchio]

ofrhz dear I didn't say anything of what you said, you just put information of what happened during the day, not what I said. Also, as I said before, having a perfect record doesn't mean that he KNOWS he is right, so why not using the rolecop if they have one? If you think "this logic still doesn't make much sense" that's up to you.

I already stated why I think I was an easy mislynch.

And already said why I could've claimed cop. "too many people picked up on the inconsistency" when the only one who pointed it out was ruru? When I gave my readlist people didn't notice it and I kept going with the inno thing after that readlist; if it was that obvious, Mathdino would've said that I claimed VT by saying Blackstar was null, so no, even if there was an inconsistency, I played it along to keep the hypo inno thing as long as I could.

[Mathdino]

I don't think Mathdino as scum needs to literally rolecop someone to know they're VT, given his perfect record of identifying PRs to NK as scum. So even if you wanted to keep pushing the argument that scum!Mathdino chose this game of all games to NOT kill a PR, this logic still doesn't make that much sense.

Just wanna step in and say that I wouldn't just not use a rolecop if I were scum. I'd use it on someone difficult to sort between VT/PR.

aka the worst.

@pintu: I didn't out your inconsistency because I was really hoping you would fakeclaim cop.

[ofrhz]

at the risk of getting sucked into the whole "would scum!Math NK a VT" discussion,

while there is the possibility that scum!Math would NK a VT to advance his agenda this game, I think it's more probable that he didn't.

But scum is more likely to cling onto that sliver of possibility, push the argument that "math did nk a VT," and ignore the more likely scenario imo

pedit: people who noticed the inconsistency in your hypo inno weren't going to point it out because that would've been an anti-town thing to do

[pinturicchio]

@pintu: I didn't out your inconsistency because I was really hoping you would fakeclaim cop.

Well I call bullshit on that. Why didn't you do that with the other two players who made the inconsistency?

[Mathdino]

There's a difference between HitAlt and dave both saying "fuck it I'm retracting my hypoclaim to vote this motherfucker" and you accidentally putting BlackStar as null in your reads list.

[pinturicchio]

pedit: people who noticed the inconsistency in your hypo inno weren't going to point it out because that would've been an anti-town thing to do

I insist: Dino pointed out two other players who were inconsistent.

[Mathdino]

I have a feeling that if he claims cop, we'll get a scum lynch today anyway no matter what

Pintu should claim so we can get things rollin

this was specifically a post i made to goad you into fakeclaiming cop

notice the double entendre

[Mathdino]

also not gonna lie
i didn't actually notice you fuck up your hypoclaim
i think TW was the one who noticed it and i just didn't comment
but correct me if i'm wrong

again, big difference between voting and pushing your hypo-inno

and forgetting your hypoinno for a single reads list

[Mathdino]

You should be able to meta TR me off team mafia plus other games we've been town together. No research should be necessary.
VOTE: Mathdino

That's a fuck you death tunnel btw.

I know that probably sounds weird... Example Mathdino is a medium town but it's a weak read. HitAlt and BlackStar are null and weak reads, etc.

davesaz (strong duh - the role PM can't be wrong)
HeWhoSwims - un-cc'd PR, would be weak read without that.

Zoronos (strong)
ruru (medium)
Mathdino (weak)

My hypoclaim was also bad. I think MathDino might actually be scum here.

notice the difference

[Almost50]

So...