Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Irrelephant11]

@brassherald

is proxying allowed when NOT v/la? Like can one player just give another player their vote temporarily for whatever reason?

No, I will only allow that for V/LA. If you are here, there is no reason you cannot just follow their votes, proxying is only if you are unavailable to post.

Shoshin are you townreading gamma

[Shoshin]

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

[Momrangal]

OK caught up.

BBs.

New vote

VOTE: skitter

Also, uhh.. Pressuring doesn't work if
A) the person does not realize it and
B)if you continuously state that it's for pressure. Just, FYI

[Irrelephant11]

alright cool

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we're buddies and we figured it out

[Irrelephant11]

thanks brass

[Keyser Söze]

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...does this mean I've pocketed you Irrelephant11?

[Irrelephant11]

ha. naaaa. Just means I like Shoshin for perceptive town more than I like you for scum.

you're funny though, we can be friends if not buddies

[Keyser Söze]

The Planeteers are growing quite fond of you too.

[Keyser Söze]

skitter30 > Nauci for me though atm.

Neither convinced of Nauci's villainous nature

or

wholesomeness right now.

[Irrelephant11]

The Planeteers are growing quite fond of you too.

Get out of here with this ish this is completely irrelephant

what does skitter > nauci mean

which one's the towny side

[Momrangal]

And no I'm not about to metadive. I don't want to keep hearing "this is how he plays so we should just clear him"

I didn't say you should "clear" Invis because of meta, I said you shouldn't scumread him for things that aren't scummy for him to do. How would you feel if someone called you scummy because of things that you do in every game as town? You'd think that person was scumreading you for things that aren't scummy, right? Apply that same logic to Invis.

And OK, I get it. If invis is just one of those players that don't contribute to town as any alignment then fine. I don't think someone like him should be allowed near lylo but pushing policy isn't my mo so.

Im not gonna metadive, so what exactly about those posts makes invisibility exclusively town?

[skitter30]

Are people scumreading Bernie here?

duckling, you feel a lot more ... reserved than you usually do. Or like, out of it, or, like, less *present*. Idk how to say that better.

do you or do you not know who BS is?

--

I wanted to sit back and watch Shoshin and Momrangel to play out the inner conflict in my head I have over Invisibility.

Are you usually this cage-y?

--

@Shoshin - now’s the time to share that irrefutable meta evidence for town-invisibility.

momrangel actually came back with a bang.

Still not town reading, but Shoshin sounds convinced they are town via meta. Maybe their playstyle is getting in the way of me seeing what scum-hunting/sorting they are actively engaged in

So the reason why I asked about your invisibility read is because 414 almost sounds like ... you're narrating a dispute between shoshin and momrangal and that you're like ... waiting for them to decide what their reads are and I'm wondering if you, like, are trying to form your own read or if you're just going to be listening to one of {shoshin/mom}, and if you're planning on doing the latter, how you're going to decide which one is correct.

Also I wouldn't really describe mom's recent posting about invisibility as a 'bang'.

--

Btw I don't think duckling and mom are scum together

Why is that?

Can't remember that many (if any) associations between the two players..?

don't think 315 is a vote on a partner.

--

I had Mom as town for similar reasons to Irrelephant, as well as her answer to my question in 163. Her play was also consistent with her town meta so nothing to worry about.

Do you have a good track-record cold-meta'ing people you've never played with?

--

If it's his meta it should be NAI and you shouldn't be town reading him off that.

I think it's meta and is wholly NAI and is neither vote-worthy nor town-read-worthy

--

1. *feel* was referring to your word choices. You've used "I don't think/I don't feel" "I'm not sure/I'm not seeing" "This doesn't/isn't" like SO much that I'm having trouble knowing what you DO think/feel/see and that comes across as somewhat intentional, given how much you've done it.

2. something something re-reading early posts something something shoshin/math and shoshin/stun really didn't look like early s/s and stun and dino both seemed independently towny

and then I was sorta light-scumreading all three of the second list and there was nothing to indicate they had different alignments

but also mostly I said it for the SPICE

1. That's a writing style thing. People have commented on that before. I think I write pretty clearly, but apparently it's confusing for some people. The 'feel' thing is how I describe gut, or when I don't know how to precisely articulate what I'm seeing. like if I don't like a post but I haven't figured out why yet, I'll say something like 'this post feels weird to me. I think it's because ...' and do my best to finish that sentence because it helps me articulate the gutpings into something describable and actionable.

The 'I don't think'/ 'I'm not sure'/'This doesn't' is how I express disagreement. IE if someone says something like 'I like post 372 because of X and I townread player Y because of it', I'll say something like 'I don't think 372 is AI because .... ' whatever the reason is.

2. hmm, interesting way to read associatives.

--

This is true and I'd been skimming. Still not townreading you because I do still have bad feels about your posts, but,

Nauci is actually reminding me completely of our scum game together: "casual" as a way of seeming town without doing much work
VOTE: Nauci

I mean, I think it's weird to vote someone for 'wanting more from them' when you agree they've posted a reasonable amount of readable content and you're skimming the thread.

Also not sure how I feel about you backing off that quickly when I asked you about it.

Post's getting long, will continue in a new post shortly.

[Keyser Söze]

The Planeteers are growing quite fond of you too.

Get out of here with this ish this is completely irrelephant

what does skitter > nauci mean

which one's the towny side

It means: Skitter lynch is better than Nauci lynch right now if I had to choose between the two.

Your meta-tell must be strong for Nauci. Impressive if you caught scum in a few posts.

[Momrangal]

Irrelephant11
Shoshin
stungun0404
Keyser Soze

Mathdino
Bernie

Nauci
the worst
northsidegal*
Invisibility

Gamma Emerald
skitter

That's where I stand. Moved invis with meta considered

[northsidegal]

i have no energy to play mafia recently. i realize now that it was irresponsible of me to sign up for this.

apologies to everyone else and to brassherald. i hate doing this.

@mod, please replace me

hopefully i feel better soon.

[Irrelephant11]

I mean, right, I understand that contextually you were disagreeing with people. My problem was with how you seemed to spend most of your time disagreeing with people, often in a non-committal "I dunno..." kind of way that shuts things down, rather than making assertions/questions that generate discussion and help to eliminate posscumbilities.

I get why you wouldn't like me backing off. I'm just being honest, though - I wanted enough content from you to determine if my feel on your posts stayed the same. When I voted you, because I had been skimming and ISOing, I didn't notice that you did indeed already have enough to get a read. It's still a scumlean for me. But also, I've been scumreading Nauci for awhile and liked the wagon there more than the me/keyser one on you.

pedit: this is all a response to the end of 511.

[Irrelephant11]

Your meta-tell must be strong for Nauci. Impressive if you caught scum in a few posts.

reminding myself to respond to this later

[Gamma Emerald]

oh hi this game exploded

[Keyser Söze]

I predict another replace out in the next 48 hours.

Called it.

And no, I do not share a scum pt with NSG

[Gamma Emerald]

Keyser if you put your sus on me aside for the moment who do you think is scum?

I kinda question the motive of this type of post: it reads like trying to subtly make someone drop the read they're being told to set aside

[Gamma Emerald]

momrangel really needs to start talking about other players, not just Invisibility

Would you say she is a competent town/scum player?

Yes to town, quite a bit for scum, based on my experience playing with/modding for her

[brassherald]

Searching for a replacement for NSG

Technically, the replace list right now is on hold because Pine said it would be a week or two before he's available by the way. I know that's there.

[skitter30]

hey it's mom. Hi Mom!!!!

Who on your wagon do you think is scum? because prolly one of 'em, regardless of your alignment

I'm tending towards thinking it might be the duck.

Don't have enough from NSG to read her and I think stun is more likely than not town.

--

And no I'm not about to metadive. I don't want to keep hearing "this is how he plays so we should just clear him"

I didn't say you should "clear" Invis because of meta, I said you shouldn't scumread him for things that aren't scummy for him to do. How would you feel if someone called you scummy because of things that you do in every game as town? You'd think that person was scumreading you for things that aren't scummy, right? Apply that same logic to Invis.

which game did you play with invis again? have you metadived him?


--

keyser, is english your first language? Your posts feel very ... cage-y or put-upon or artificial maybe? Idk what the right word is exactly but they feel kinda off in a general sense. Or like affected is maybe a good word?

--

Spoiler: 489

Ok, I can see why skitter is pulling up Shoshin on his 'remarkable' entrance (#20), hell, even I was dumbfounded by Shoshin's first few posts. But i've seen scum attack townies for being overly suspicious for NAI behaviour... so this is what I was initially picking up from skitter (#26). I feel like a townie would have just let it go but skitter presses on (#28), (#42). If you're not finding their behaviour scum alignment indicative, why are you getting so worked up about it? I feel scum find it easier to talk about misunderstandings (which can be completely NAI matters).

Not sure why you think a townie would have let it go there; I actually still want shoshin to explain why she thought math's post was pro-scum

I was trying to get her to explain her thought process, because it didn't make sense to me (and still doesn't, and she ignored me way back when when I tried to get her to explain). I'm not getting worked up about it, and I'm not convinced that it was NAI.

What I got from these interactions was a 'Shoshin-and-skitter' aren't scum partners. I also concluded skitter may have been

the scum

to jump on Shoshin's unconventional entrance.

you're also assuming that there *was* scum who jumped on shoshin, which imo is not an inhernetly valid assumption. I kinda feel like you're looking someone to fit your preconcieved notions of where scum ought to be.

Questions/challenges Momrangal's reads (#70). Engages Mom into a discussion about "lurking". Is skitter here to just correct players?

No, I was pointing out that voting someone for 'active lurking' two hours into the game starts is silly and a really stupid reason to vote someone; I don't think you can classify someone as active lurking at that time.

Agrees with Nauci's point about Mathdino's playstyle making "it easier to obfuscate" - but has skitter acted on this suspicion directly with Mathdino yet?

no, because I was catching up and she brought it up at around the same time I realized that.

"I don't really know if people can be classified as 'lurkers' when the game hasn't even been a thing for a full day yet." Again, Skitter here slightly nitpicking at Stun's observation instead of trying to understand the sentiment.

Because I thought he was going after lurkers pre-maturely

Skitter puts mom in the same breath as gamma (#293). Gamma's effort has frustrated me so far, but wouldn't put in the same category as the frustration/suspicion with mom. That's just my take though.

OK? Are you like trying to say that I"m scummy for having different reads than you? I don't really understand the problem with having gamma in the same tier as mom. I don't even know which one you like more tbh.

Skitter talking about her suspicion of Mathdino... but still no direct communication with Mathdino to resolve her suspicions...? (#325). OK... finally engages with Mathdino (or Mathdino confronts Skitter).

Because math wasn't around in that 12-hour span or whatever it was since I first mentioned it and like, I'd talk about it with him whenever he shows up? I'm not really sure what you're expecting from me here?

Shares final scumleans... "scumlean: math, duckling, mom, gamma". I don't know why they share the same level. Math sounds more like a null/null scum read, as skitter believes Mathdino will prove himself town in the long run, so best to keep Mathdino alive for now...

You know, for someone who's been remarkably cage-y about your own reads you're very critical about how I share mine.

They don't share the same level; if you want a more tiered readslist it looks something like this for right now; I don't know if I can make one retroactively for the time of that post like this. At that time, math was roughly on the same level as duckling, and mom and gamma are roughly on the same level. Math can be sketchy, but not a read that I want to act upon right now for just the reason you described. That doesn't make him not a scumread though.

For right now:
{}
{stun}
{shoshin, bernie}
{nsg, irrelephant, invsibility, nauci} -- null
{mom, gamma}
{math}
{duckling}
{}

I don't know where to put you right now.

Most of this seems to be more of a 'you don't like how I express myself' thing than an actual scumreading thing tbh.

--

Alright, cool. So Nauci, Skitter, and the worst as scum? I think that makes the most sense at this point.

nsg’s a legit possibility too. everybody has at least 17 posts except her. she has 4 (-13 compared to everyone else)

I don't think she's been around in a general sense this weekend, and not just this game; I really don't think that's AI.

--

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

this is just like a list of most of the people that are generally percieved to be sketchy

--

i have no energy to play mafia recently. i realize now that it was irresponsible of me to sign up for this.

apologies to everyone else and to brassherald. i hate doing this.

@mod, please replace me

hopefully i feel better soon.

i hope you feel better soon

--

I mean, right, I understand that contextually you were disagreeing with people. My problem was with how you seemed to spend most of your time disagreeing with people, often in a non-committal "I dunno..." kind of way that shuts things down, rather than making assertions/questions that generate discussion and help to eliminate posscumbilities.

I mean, that's just how I write, and I'm not being non-committal. If I say 'I don't think that ...' it means 'I disagree with you'. I just don't write that way.

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh yeah I read Shoshin as yikes level lynchbait and your push was scummy

FTR you're more likely town than Shoshin atm I'm just not happy about it

So what I'm getting out of this is:
Shoshin reads as lynchbait
Keyser pushing Shoshin is bad
Keyser still reads town otherwise
Am I correct?

[Keyser Söze]

I wanted to sit back and watch Shoshin and Momrangel to play out the inner conflict in my head I have over Invisibility.

Are you usually this cage-y?

"Cage-y"? I was being as frank as I could be IMO. When I have 12 players at my disposal (where 75% are likely town) I'm going to get them to explore and explain their two contrasting stances to the full (in regard a player I was struggling to articulate and sort).

Unfortunately I didn't get the show I was expecting, even though I billed it to the max (admittedly using hyperbole). Put, they have talked out the invisibility-meta dilemma in the last couple pages. This would help my read on invisibility. Moreover it probably has made me re-look at my reads of both mom and Shoshin too.

@Shoshin - now’s the time to share that irrefutable meta evidence for town-invisibility.

momrangel actually came back with a bang.

Still not town reading, but Shoshin sounds convinced they are town via meta. Maybe their playstyle is getting in the way of me seeing what scum-hunting/sorting they are actively engaged in

So the reason why I asked about your invisibility read is because 414 almost sounds like ... you're narrating a dispute between shoshin and momrangal and that you're like ... waiting for them to decide what their reads are and I'm wondering if you, like, are trying to form your own read or if you're just going to be listening to one of {shoshin/mom}, and if you're planning on doing the latter, how you're going to decide which one is correct.

Again, there is nothing in the rule book against using two other players to resolve your inner conflict.
"Correct"? Nothing is correct right now. They just have to convince me, and I need to convince myself. Weird question.