Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Irrelephant11]

jk reads coming later, gotta go

[Keyser Söze]

I hope Gamma and mom aren’t both scum

Was thinking of a world where my bottom scum reads are town.

[Nauci]

I find it hard to believe that Nauci "wants to townread" Irrelephant yet doesn't. She observes differences between his play here and his play as scum, she says his play as scum is strong and his play here weak, but she scumread him for that? He's been pretty careless this game and a lot less calculated with his posting than he was as scum, so why would someone who wants to townread him instead scumread him? I get the feeling that Nauci's faking the scumread and she keeps saying that she wants to townread (i.e. the opposite of what she's actually doing) to hide her actual intent (i.e. faking a scumread).

Only 5 min so quick response

I want to TR Irrelephant because he is my friend but he put up a great performance as scum so my desire to TR is totally overwhelmed by my paranoia, if that makes sense? The mind is willing, but the trust is spongy and bruised, you know?

I think it's a really good point about the purported sloppiness, and it does give me pause. But my read was *despite* it: I feel like there is a pattern of trying to delegitimize stronger players and avoid attacking certain ones that speaks to protecting teammates and leaving things open to scum read people, and that the sloppiness is a result of disingenuous reasoning to keep those options open.

I think that it's very good to get explanation and opinion posts from Irrelephant and not just these question and stir the pot posts that made him sound so town, because it wasn't until opinions had to be tossed around explicitly that he was alignment readable in our game. I'll link some examples of what I mean later from our game and our shamefully manipulative scum thread.

[Nauci]

the worst enters the game and begins his obsession with telling us Bernie Sander's is town:

"are you town bernie?"

[Who don’t you want lynched today?]

"Bernie"

"Bernie Sanders struck me as very towny"

"Are people scumreading Bernie here?"

"I strongly suspect Mr. Sanders is town"

"Bernie Sanders remains probably my strongest townread"

Reeks of over-compensating. Stinks of over-kill. it's making me theorize some interesting associations...

Hmm this is a good point. I didn't take into account that that behacior could mean wrt BS, especially in the context of their recent conversation. I'm not sure what exactly it means but I will put this in my thoughts bucket.

[Nauci]

If anyone wants reactions from me regarding any specific Nauci points, just ask. I had the same thought as Shoshin, overall - Nauci knows I'm better than this as scum (not to mention the help I'd be getting from most possible scummates on a playerlist that averages pretty talkative & experienced). I'm messy, unfocused, and acting overconfident, and it's because I'm still figuring out how to play as town.

Your meta-tell must be strong for Nauci. Impressive if you caught scum in a few posts.

reminding myself to respond to this later

My response here is that I wanted pressure on Nauci to determine her alignment, but as someone mentioned already it doesn't work if you present it as pressure. I actually *didn't* have a good feel before these long posts. Her scumread of me feels fake, though. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but that would require something like "well maybe if she had thought it through more" which, clearly, I was actually #1 on her mind (I'm flattered btw). Not townreading Nauci rn.

More thoughts on all players coming soon

1: I know you're really good at certain things, but that what you were great at in that game was done when there wasn't anything like the pressure you've faced in this game, so you could keep doing the Good Questions Posts. Your defense can't be "I would never slip and not sound town as scum, so I'm not scum!" That's absurd. We know it's possible to make you nervous and that it impacts your post quality (p.s. I'm sorry if after being in the trenches together I am now using that knowledge to nail you to the wall. Can we still be fronds?).

2: I feel like "scumread sounds fake" is something you pushed several times in our game to mislynch... Post links later when I get to a computer.

3: if you want to refute any of the reasons I am scum reading you, you'll have to come up with better evaluations of the other players in the game. If you want to just try to de-legitimize me by FOSing me (also something we did in that game, poor Teacher), that will make me far more suspicious but hey if you get me mislynched, go you I guess. But once I flip green I don't think you're going to have a good time.

VOTE: Irrelephant11

Serious vote.

[Nauci]

I was once a huge jerk like this to drive my own boyfriend to crumble in a game of secret Hitler because he was a dirty fascist so don't take it personally ;D

[Nauci]

@brassherald:

Can we know if scum has daychat or not?

This information will not be made public.
-Brass

Irrelephant11 says they do

[Irrelephant11]

I think it's a really good point about the purported sloppiness, and it does give me pause. But my read was *despite* it: I feel like there is a pattern of trying to delegitimize stronger players and avoid attacking certain ones that speaks to protecting teammates and leaving things open to scum read people, and that the sloppiness is a result of disingenuous reasoning to keep those options open.

(yes still fronds)

I am working on evaluating all players, already said that. obviously this conversation is distracting from that, tho

I think it's a really good point about the purported sloppiness, and it does give me pause. But my read was *despite* it: I feel like there is a pattern of trying to delegitimize stronger players and avoid attacking certain ones that speaks to protecting teammates and leaving things open to scum read people, and that the sloppiness is a result of disingenuous reasoning to keep those options open.

1. this first sentence feels like a scumslip, though not enough of one for a whole read obviously. "That IS a good point, but my read WAS dependent on ignoring that" shows you had already thought of this before you posted your read of me. Then when shoshin pointed it out you had to acknowledge it as new information while trying to get others to ignore it.

I think one thing we both need to take into account (if you're town) is that we said multiple times last game "I'm playing exactly like how I would as town lol" so maybe when some things look the same we should consider they might actually be from town. (re:"scumread sounds fake")

I recognize that "I look scummy so I must be town" is a bad argument. The argument

I'm trying to make

though is "My play shows a lack of concern for how I come across, which isn't scummy".

If we're both town, this is gonna be a struggle.

But... I'm still not convinced you are, so bring on the tunnel. Hopefully it at least makes other players' ability to read us easier.

I don't know what 706 is referring to?

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, you haven't played mafia on a different site?

[Nauci]

It's referring to your claim that your teammates would be helping you polish, which would imply day chat

[Gamma Emerald]

i finally put together something i remember you saying on the discord, and then checked rask's account and saw that the references regarding your sig and gamma added up.

OH NOW I GET IT
So it took me being wrong to get the puzzle solved, nice

[skitter30]

Alright, I feel a bit better about Skitter after skimming those games.

oh, i knew i was forgetting something yesterday: this basically explains my POV in a nutshell

--

Biased because we seem to have very similar perspectives/feelings at a whole lot of times in the game, but I think that I can reasonably give town points for that.

this is basically what i feel towards you rn.

--

(Surely you must think I’m scum though trying to pro-actively misslynch you or a townie with bad reasons to scumread you.. because you have refuted/argued every single point, and also noted I’ve grossly misrepresented you... and said my tone is fake..?) looks like you’re not being lynched D1 so I’ll have to re-look at my read of you D2

no, i said i didn't know how to sort you at that point, which means i couldn't tell if you're town with bad reads or scum trying to mislynch me; i didn't put you in either category at that time

atm you're tending towards scum

yes i'm actually that stubborn and yes i'll actually quibble over every little thing if i think it's silly or unwarranted.

--

not gonna happen. what's your intention in applying unnecessary pressure when I literally don't have the capacity to rock your world rn?

duckling do you think you'll be able to engage better within a couple of (irl) days?

--

If anyone wants reactions from me regarding any specific Nauci points, just ask. I had the same thought as Shoshin, overall - Nauci knows I'm better than this as scum (not to mention the help I'd be getting from most possible scummates on a playerlist that averages pretty talkative & experienced).

I'm messy, unfocused, and acting overconfident, and it's because I'm still figuring out how to play as town.

even tho brass won't clarify if there's daytalk, i don't think that insinuating that there is in fact daytalk is inherently a slip because most games that i've played here have daytalk so i just kinda assume it's a thing at this point, although i usually do check to see if its in the OP.

who are you familiar with in this playerlist?

the bolded is kinda :/ i kinda feel like you're emphasizing about being perceived as town, if that makes sense? i'll try to figure out how to articulate this better if i can. like you want me to townread you, you seem to want you/shoshin to be a townbloc, and are defending your play here as 'figuring out how to play as town'. it feels kinda off to me.

i actually skimmed through the ISOs of both of your newbies and i didn't see anything like that in either of them.

--

also could somebody explain the thing with gemini and postcount?

me and math were in a game with her a few weeks ago and i kinda mislynched her, oops. he told me after she can be read on postcount, ie that if she's posting a lot and seems active she's town; if she isn't she's probably scum. i have not personally asceratined the veracity of that read; that's how math thinks she can be read.

--

I recognize that "I look scummy so I must be town" is a bad argument. The argument I'm trying to make though is "My play shows a lack of concern for how I come across, which isn't scummy".

i kinda disagree with this argument; i think your posts do in fact give off the impression that you're concerned about how you come across. (and the fact that i picked up on this before i saw that you're claiming you're doing the opposite is kinda ???? and kinda indicates that this is indeed something you're worried about and that it bled through your posts)

--

i finally put together something i remember you saying on the discord, and then checked rask's account and saw that the references regarding your sig and gamma added up.

OH NOW I GET IT
So it took me being wrong to get the puzzle solved, nice

gamma your posts are fluffy and are not game-solving.

[Gamma Emerald]

mmm irrelephants quick turn off keysor is odd because it seemed like a vote he was good with so even if stungun protested to go from it to skitter doesnt feel right

Quick turns are a towntell, don't get all confused
Read TM White Flag, you might be amused

Talking about Ranmaru's play right?

[Gamma Emerald]

also post reveal Bernie Sanders remains probably my strongest townread I think

What, did you think he reminds you of Boon
Where you're blind to goon links cuz hes like, some buffoon
Explain why you're suddenly willing to set a
Townread so lovingly with no hot meta

That was me who thought he was Boon
tw thought (correctly) BS is rask

[Gamma Emerald]

Stun-town
Keys???town

Mathprobtown but I'm probably gonna flip back and forth there
Gamma??? Worth looking into

Elephant???town
Nanci???
Sho???
Skit???

DUCCKKKKYYYYYY!!!!if scum, never playing with Gemini again

NSG??
Bernie???town

Mentally I'm on page 9, but I don't know invisibilitys meta. I've never played and I pulled something I thought was scummy and rolled with it. I know you touched on it once but like, even if it is his meta whats stopping him from being scum here? If it's his meta it should be NAI and you shouldn't be town reading him off that.

not much a fan of the bolded here (stances that are not really stances)
also sitting on a read people are hard saying is stylistic should eventually spur something as well rather than sitting too long which
A) do check it, if you disagree with conclusions you can argue that point
B) sort people saying this thing and try to ascertain their level of judgment: keysor IIRC had this approach
C) temporarily prioritize
though maybe strike that as she did seem to do b c after caught up fully

Actually the reads you bolded seem very sensible thanks to two games very close in number that momrangal was involved in.

[Gamma Emerald]

Keyser if you put your sus on me aside for the moment who do you think is scum?

I kinda question the motive of this type of post: it reads like trying to subtly make someone drop the read they're being told to set aside

HMM didnt we go through this in clownspiracy

Don't recall that, please point it out?

[Gamma Emerald]

Brass you're an ass, go take a poem class
Near rhymes are a fast way to give your raps a pass

I would've noted that there is a rhyme just not at the ends of the lines

[Gamma Emerald]

Irrelephant11
Shoshin
stungun0404
Keyser Soze

Mathdino
Bernie

Nauci
the worst
northsidegal*
Invisibility

Gamma Emerald
skitter

Why is Gamma down there?

What have I done to deserve being higher? You haven't seemed to have that high of an opinion of me so far so this is off-color imo.

You have disappointed me in the following areas:
- attitude
- pro-active sorting contribution thus far
- laid back nonchalance to a challenging game
- timing of choosing when to offer an opinion

None of these points I would label in my personal ‘bottom scum read’ category.


But I can empathisize with mom’s later explanation of why SHE has you down there.

I also know it is within your ability to redeem yourself however, as you are a quality player. Hence my frustration.

Huh. Never expected that I would ever get BoP'd in my career after coming across an evaluation of my play in a scum PT a little bit back
I might have to make an alt for my "for fun" games from now on
but yeah I guess I'll cut the bullshit and play serious from this point on since LITERALLY EVERYONE expects that from me

[Bernie Sanders]

[*]

Mathdino

• I have a slightly town lean on Math atm. Was being overly difficult to read earlier, but has made an effort to be less absurdist just to rhyme. I'm willing to give Math room to get more involved, because tossing out a bunch of town reads is pretty town!math

eh throwing out townreads is really easy and doesn't commit to anything like scumreads would
I was expecting going into the game to see a lot from mathdino on the people he played with previous here to really analyse but as of yet it's some kinda boring statements and not so much stances or analysis on their alignments here

[Bernie Sanders]

Though that ever promised desktopdino catchup should be tomorrow!

[Irrelephant11]

Irrelephant, you haven't played mafia on a different site?

Nope. A completed scum game and a partial town game is all I got
Oh and loads of IRL play

It's referring to your claim that your teammates would be helping you polish, which would imply day chat

oh interesting, actually wow it's v towny of you to point that out unless scum don't have daychat.
wait except you asked the mod the same question in our last game to look towny

I regret signing up to play with Nauci when we'd only ever seen scum!eachother

[Gamma Emerald]

It's referring to your claim that your teammates would be helping you polish, which would imply day chat

Slip of some sort? idk

[Gamma Emerald]

I have multiple townreads but no scumreads
gonna re-read the people with wagons on em, but later cos I'm gonna watch anime for a bit

[Nauci]

I seem to recall pointing out that I ask about day chat all the time regardless of alignment due to a thing that happened in one of my newbie games

I have many opinions of Irrelephant11 but I will wait for your write ups on other players (as in anyone except you, but including the thoughts about me) to give you a chance to change my mind first

[Nauci]

[*]

Mathdino

• I have a slightly town lean on Math atm. Was being overly difficult to read earlier, but has made an effort to be less absurdist just to rhyme. I'm willing to give Math room to get more involved, because tossing out a bunch of town reads is pretty town!math

eh throwing out townreads is really easy and doesn't commit to anything like scumreads would
I was expecting going into the game to see a lot from mathdino on the people he played with previous here to really analyse but as of yet it's some kinda boring statements and not so much stances or analysis on their alignments here

I fully agree that throwing out a bunch of town reads isn't very strong play for day 1. I think I criticized him on that thing in our last game. But, I do think it is very consistent with town Math d1 play and that he tends to throw out town reads but become aggro about his POE scum reads later on.

But I should really refrain from being as meta dependent as Math is haha