Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Keyser Söze]

Sorry ninja'd me .

[the worst]

town!Nauci would mean "Nauci when she's town",

[the worst]

can't aim this morning

, the specific use of it in any one post is open to context. can relate to previous game experience or town meta or w/e

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I agree with you that Irrelephant might be scum. But that applies to everyone in the game. Can you point me to the specific posts that make it more likely that Irrelephant's scum rather than town?

[Keyser Söze]

@Irrelephant:

I think that as any alignment, you should veer off from these syntactical lines of thinking. Phrasing/wording/slang/idioms/vocabulary is usually mostly reflective of someone's culture/education/personality. If you know that "this works well" means "corroborates the theory," you should analyze the thought behind it OR explain in detail why phrasing X would mean thought process Y vs "I personally would have used Y instead of X here." It would either improve your scum hunting as town, or reduce your empty shading opportunities as scum.

The "I want to watch them fight" comment seems like the same sentiment as your "hopefully it at least makes other players' ability to read us easier" from 707. I've always thought 1v1s were good for sorting those involved, as a 3rd party observer or participant.

The "this is an attempt to scum read me later" comments ping me BADLY. Those aren't reactions I ever would have had to those comments (if they were about me instead) unless I was scum with a "oh god they're onto me" kick. One post literally says he didn't even think about scumrelephant as a possibility and it was a blind spot, so I can only see fear/misdirection motivating "this reads as excitement," and I really don't draw a line from "you just know Nauci well" to "attempt to scumread [irrelephant] if nauci flips town"?

I think that I have done my best to be extremely pro-town thus far, but "doesn't suck up to Irrelephant" shouldn't be a point in my favor. If I were scum I'd be as afraid of townrelephant as townmathdino, and try to hide because after we pocketed flicker/teacher you couldn't possibly trust anyone buttering you up.

This is quite an incredible post.
Nauci has expertly explained my whole play like the way I meant it (and perfectly described the way Irrelephant has miss-read). How did you do that?

[the worst]

tis indeed a good mafia theory post

[Keyser Söze]

Need to apologise to TW, sorry mate. Was just getting frustrated.

[the worst]

it's okay, right back atcha.

I just felt misrepped because I am not posting random stuff and don't do that as either alignment I just don't feel like I've had the time or the opportunity to actually present myself. you're fine I need to put more effort into obvtowning.

[Irrelephant11]

I’m gonna take a break from this game for the night

Nauci finding scum motivation for every little thing I do is exhausting, regardless of her alignment

See you tomorrow

[Shoshin]

As a matter of theory, I think town tend to talk about "phrasing" more than scum (points in Irrelephant's favor) and I strongly disagree Nauci's "theory" 'that "phrasing" doesn't matter (it's actually provable that people unconsciously use different "phrasing" for the same ideas when you change their perspective (i.e. whether they're informed or uinformed about what they're saying)).

[Nauci]

Nauci, I agree with you that Irrelephant might be scum. But that applies to everyone in the game. Can you point me to the specific posts that make it more likely that Irrelephant's scum rather than town?

Spoiler: VERY MASSIVE WALL POST

591I disagree wrt irrelephant. The bizarre push on Skitter despite being one of the most active posters, and possibly nervous turn off from Keyser, feels bad to me.

[*]

Irrelephant11

• I'd like to TR Irrelephant, but thus far I am not seeing the strong performance I expected. Even while scum, Irrelephant put up a good scum hunting game in 1863. More defensive posts and less active hunting, IMO.
  
• As previously mentioned, Irrelephant avoided attacking me even when I was putting up a poor performance.
  Feels too favorable to lurkers/momrangal without great justification, while keeping up cases on some of the most active/vocal/potentially great scumhunting players in the game (BS, Keyser, Skitter) that

  don't

  feel forced instead of robust, and potentially pocketing Shosh (which was rather successful in our game on a few people) [there was a typo "don't" there from laptop cursor skipping around]
  
  
• Acknowledging the "bad" vote on Skitter doesn't really address it at all? Admitting it's bad just means that we're all in agreement it was bizarre.
  
  
• Excited for this 516 promise
  
• I don't want to scumread Irrelephant because it'd be awesome if we were town together, and I tried to not read with too much bias from my obvious paranoia of his brilliant scum play, but I came away from the catch up with less good feelings than I had hoped. I could see plausible associations w/ Mom or Shosh or TW (or even Math), while NOT w/ Bernie/Skitter/me/Keyser.

I find it hard to believe that Nauci "wants to townread" Irrelephant yet doesn't. She observes differences between his play here and his play as scum, she says his play as scum is strong and his play here weak, but she scumread him for that? He's been pretty careless this game and a lot less calculated with his posting than he was as scum, so why would someone who wants to townread him instead scumread him? I get the feeling that Nauci's faking the scumread and she keeps saying that she wants to townread (i.e. the opposite of what she's actually doing) to hide her actual intent (i.e. faking a scumread).

Only 5 min so quick response

I want to TR Irrelephant because he is my friend but he put up a great performance as scum so my desire to TR is totally overwhelmed by my paranoia, if that makes sense? The mind is willing, but the trust is spongy and bruised, you know?

I think it's a really good point about the purported sloppiness, and it does give me pause. But my read was *despite* it:

I feel like there is a pattern of trying to delegitimize stronger players and avoid attacking certain ones that speaks to protecting teammates and leaving things open to scum read people, and that the sloppiness is a result of disingenuous reasoning to keep those options open.

I think that it's very good to get explanation and opinion posts from Irrelephant and not just these question and stir the pot posts that made him sound so town, because it wasn't until opinions had to be tossed around explicitly that he was alignment readable in our game. I'll link some examples of what I mean later from our game and our shamefully manipulative scum thread.

Tl;Dr Irrelephant is absolutely brilliant and thinks 11 steps ahead of the game and can fake the best of town effort posts, so don't bank on that.

He has employed several scum ploys we discussed in our scum pt so I get very bad vibes.

His weakness is being rattled under pressure/accusations that hamper his ability to fake aforementioned tryhard posts AND having the "this feels fake" posts challenged for more detail.

I take back the credit I gave earlier for those "good point" posts because of stuff like this.

Points against Irrelephant, either because they are independently suspicious or similar to tactics mentioned above:

• super early hypothetical scum pools (111)
  
• questioning if a player's post arc was genuine (205, 421) as a reason for suspicion that's deceptive because he's literally saying someone is scummy for sounding town but only qualified as far as "feels too good to be true"
  
  
• shades another strong/active player for a less than stellar reason (412)
  
  
• backs off on Keyser as soon as he's called out for a weak case in order to shade another one of the active/threatening players (423)
  
  
• withdraws town reads on players in the same breath as making them and also retcons a post as "for the SPICE" (473)
  
  
• non-commital shading "I don't actually know if that's because she's scum" while saying that he made a case on her already even though half of the case was about not having enough content which was debunked shortly afterwards (468)
  
  
• more "feels off" type shade (488)
  
• 494 and 503 read like joking-not-joking about buddying/pocketing/blocking
  
• I feel bad vibes about the defensive posting like 619 628 650. He acknowledges that those posts were bad, but continuously gets defensive when it is brought up as a data point against him. It's like admitting to a murder but protesting that every time someone brings up "irrelephant is bad because he murdered that dude" with "UGH WE'RE JUST GOING IN CIRCLES." I mean it's not like the situation has been rectified, and continued posts are just desperately trying to claw back into our good graces?
  
  
• In the same vein, 697 HA YOU SAID I'M GOOD AT SCUM SO WHY WOULD MY SCUMMY POSTING BE SCUMMY? is a nervous defensive response. Also more "fake" feels accusations.
  I *did* find the sloppy posts strange, but still felt that the things that made me uncomfortable outweighed that hesitation.
  
• Town/scumslip stuff is top of Scumrrelephant's playbook IMO (I mean, I helped teach some of it) so 707 is totally lacking value in my eyes.
  I also think that sloppy play does NOT equate lack of concern for how he comes across. I think it's quite the opposite: that because he's under pressure instead of universally town read this time, he's fumbling due to trying to stay on people's good sides and not get caught out.
  Wait was 729 serious because why would you be so bothered by pressure if you're innocent ((this bit is joking and I'm aware I sound like WE HAVE FOUND A WITCH, MAY WE BURN HIM)
  
• After 516 and 697 I'm disappointed that all we got was 752 and 758 saying he doesn't actually really know

Conclusions:

A lot of it is circumstantial, like what feels like an unsubstantiated town read on momrangal, while continuously trying to push poorly justified shade on several of our most active players (skitter, keyser, bernie, and I) even when he's made several "oh this thing X did was pretty towny" concessions about all 4 of us.

There are strategies he frequently employed to keep options open (shade qualified with "paranoia," early <scum is in this large group of people> posts, and associations hunting) but those could just be general Irrelephant posting style so I don't put as much faith in that.

The stuff that most pinged me was usage of things he explicitly plotted in our scum thread about (pocketing people, trying to get in an early town block, actively deciding which viable mislynch would be the most advantageous and pursuing it, or taking advantage of existing suspicion the way Stun accused Skitter of in 284.

But in addition, it's silly to question why

he would defend you (someone we're saying he's trying to pocket) from skitter (someone I've thought he's trying to shade). That's in line with scumrelephant win-con.

897

The "this is an attempt to scum read me later" comments ping me BADLY. Those aren't reactions I ever would have had to those comments (if they were about me instead) unless I was scum with a "oh god they're onto me" kick. One post literally says he didn't even think about scumrelephant as a possibility and it was a blind spot, so I can only see fear/misdirection motivating "this reads as excitement,"

and I really don't draw a line from "you just know Nauci well" to "attempt to scumread [irrelephant] if nauci flips town"?

Now can you stop grilling me about Irrelephant so I can take a look at everyone else?

[Shoshin]

Nauci, that isn't helpful. I've already read those posts and they don't contain an answer to my question. I'd like you to tell me the specific posts that make Irrelephant more likely to be scum. You can list them out. And then tell me exactly what about those posts increases the probability that he's scum in this game without reference to his previous game as scum.

And you're welcome to look at others, but I'm working on figuring out Irrelephant right now and I'd like your help to do so.

[Shoshin]

You know what, I'll just address your points one-by-one to make this easier for you.

[the worst]

Nauci how do you rate your reads on powerful playstyles generally? do you tunnel as town?

[Nauci]

As a matter of theory, I think town tend to talk about "phrasing" more than scum (points in Irrelephant's favor) and I strongly disagree Nauci's "theory" 'that "phrasing" doesn't matter (it's actually provable that people unconsciously use different "phrasing" for the same ideas when you change their perspective (i.e. whether they're informed or uinformed about what they're saying)).

I am against "why did he say X instead of Y? That's weird" postulating. I am against "this person reads as scummy to me because I struggle to read his/her syntax." I am for "I think the words X and Y were used because of scum POV/motivations" analysis.

I think that players of all alignments make "bad vibes" posts all the time, myself included, and none of us should ever get away with ending it there.

Elaborating is how town get other town on board, or how scum fall apart on faking town points of view.

[Nauci]

Nauci, that isn't helpful. I've already read those posts and they don't contain an answer to my question. I'd like you to tell me the specific posts that make Irrelephant more likely to be scum. You can list them out. And then tell me exactly what about those posts increases the probability that he's scum in this game without reference to his previous game as scum.

And you're welcome to look at others, but I'm working on figuring out Irrelephant right now and I'd like your help to do so.

• super early hypothetical scum pools
  (111)
  
  
• questioning if a player's post arc was genuine
  (205, 421)
  as a reason for suspicion that's deceptive because he's literally saying someone is scummy for sounding town but only qualified as far as "feels too good to be true"
  
• shades another strong/active player for a less than stellar reason
  (412)
  
  
• backs off on Keyser as soon as he's called out for a weak case in order to shade another one of the active/threatening players
  (423)
  
  
• withdraws town reads on players in the same breath as making them and also retcons a post as "for the SPICE"
  (473)
  
  
• non-commital shading "I don't actually know if that's because she's scum" while saying that he made a case on her already even though half of the case was about not having enough content which was debunked shortly afterwards
  (468)
  
  
• more "feels off" type shade
  (488)
  
  
• 494 and 503
  read like joking-not-joking about buddying/pocketing/blocking
  
• I feel bad vibes about the defensive posting like
  619 628 650.
  He acknowledges that those posts were bad, but continuously gets defensive when it is brought up as a data point against him. It's like admitting to a murder but protesting that every time someone brings up "irrelephant is bad because he murdered that dude" with "UGH WE'RE JUST GOING IN CIRCLES." I mean it's not like the situation has been rectified, and continued posts are just desperately trying to claw back into our good graces?
  
• In the same vein,
  697
  HA YOU SAID I'M GOOD AT SCUM SO WHY WOULD MY SCUMMY POSTING BE SCUMMY? is a nervous defensive response. Also more "fake" feels accusations. I *did* find the sloppy posts strange, but still felt that the things that made me uncomfortable outweighed that hesitation.
  
• Town/scumslip stuff is top of Scumrrelephant's playbook IMO (I mean, I helped teach some of it) so 707 is totally lacking value in my eyes. I also think that sloppy play does NOT equate lack of concern for how he comes across. I think it's quite the opposite: that because he's under pressure instead of universally town read this time, he's fumbling due to trying to stay on people's good sides and not get caught out. Wait was 729 serious because why would you be so bothered by pressure if you're innocent ((this bit is joking and I'm aware I sound like WE HAVE FOUND A WITCH, MAY WE BURN HIM)
  
• After 516 and 697 I'm disappointed that all we got was 752 and 758 saying he doesn't actually really know

897

The "this is an attempt to scum read me later" comments ping me BADLY. Those aren't reactions I ever would have had to those comments (if they were about me instead) unless I was scum with a "oh god they're onto me" kick. One post literally says he didn't even think about scumrelephant as a possibility and it was a blind spot, so I can only see fear/misdirection motivating "this reads as excitement,"

and I really don't draw a line from "you just know Nauci well" to "attempt to scumread [irrelephant] if nauci flips town"?

You are welcome to disagree with my posts, but it is completely infuriating for you to imply I haven't already exhaustively pointed to over 15 posts that pinged me and written out why, even within the unnecessary constraint of not using meta.

[Nauci]

Nauci how do you rate your reads on powerful playstyles generally? do you tunnel as town?

I don't tunnel as town.

I spend a lot of time and effort on every single case, and I work really hard to be aware of my biases. I don't write up a lot on everyone because some players don't have a lot of material to work on, but when there is, it looks like I'm tunneling because of the amount of time I've spent here.

I have only had time to really analyze irrelephant and you, but if I wasn't answering shosin I'd be rereading momrangal and gamma right now.

I'm trying to do less wall posting because it understandably exhausts everyone as much to read as it was for me to type.

[brassherald]

Not_Mafia replaces Invisibility. Again, I rolled a dice to determine who replaces whom. It has been totally random that the first to request replacement is also the last to be replaced.

Please welcome Not_Mafia

[the worst]

Mmkay. Your current take on Irrelephant feels tunnelled but I'm starting to suspect that's influenced by how hard Shoshin is pushing you to help her sort him. Keen for your Mom and Gamma reads.

pedit: NOT_MAFIAAAAA WHAT'S NEW?!?!

[Nauci]

Woohoo! Welcome Not_Mafia!

I don't have much direct experience w/ NM or Gustavo but I've skimmed their games because I was skimming the worst/math/other games so it's nice to see players I have soooome amount of meta familiarity with

Much hype

P.S. Math i miss u booboo come bak 2 us

[brassherald]

"Love your Enemies, for they tell you your Faults"

Votecount 1.11

Nauci(3)

~ Shoshin(127), Momrangal(37), the worst(113)

Irrelephant11(2)

~ Nauci(57), skitter30(83)

Gamma Emerald(2)

~ Mathdino(58), Bernie Sanders(104)

the worst(1)

~ Not_Mafia(32)

Momrangal(1)

~ northsidegal(5)


Not Voting (4): Irrelephant11(78), Gustavo(42), Keyser Söze(125), Gamma Emerald(51)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-02 17:10:00)

MOD REMINDERS

Still Searching for a replacement for NSG

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I started writing up a response to your analysis but I don't have time for this right now.

In short, this is the problem I have. You're telling me why it's possible that Irrelephant's scum by telling the story of scum Irrelephant deploying an elaborate scum agenda to delegitmize strong players, protect others, pocket me, etc. That's all fine.

But there's no analysis as to why your narrative is more likely than a town Irrelephant one. Why do you think he's delegitmizing rather than simply critical of what they're saying? Why is he pocketing rather than correctly defending/townreading? Why's he scum pushing a scum agenda rather than a clueless townie who believes what he's saying?

I'm open to what you're saying but I just don't see any analysis of what makes Irrelephant more likely to be scum.

[Shoshin]

Not_Mafia! Excellent. Easiest guy to read in the game. Such a simple mind. In a good way.

[Not_Mafia]

ayyyy

[skitter30]

Like, Skitter, assume for a moment that Irrelephant's scum who knows that you're town and that I'm town. Why would he encourage you to townread me instead of sitting back and letting your paranoia fester? The last thing scum want is for two townies who suspect each other to suddenly start trusting each other and working together.

honestly i don't think my read on him/you at that moment was super important to him as either alignment. he's played with you and is more worried about what you think about him than what i did at that time.

like if he's scum, i think he was more worried about reinforcing his townread on you and buddying you than what i thought of you. iirc my comment about you was in a longer wallpost and that's the only thing he commented on - he was focusing on talking about you, not on particularly responding to me.

and i was in middle of having an argument with you; him piping in to say he thought you were town wasn't exactly going to change that or change my opinoin of you at that moment

--

okay i know this is really crappy of me but

@mod replace me out

because having to read over the game feels like a burden

afia;fa

honestly of the (4) repouts this might be the grossest? or is at least tied with gemini's i think

--

Sidenote: I have 100% at least once if not more times read skitter posts thinking they were stun posts and stun posts thinking they were skitter posts because synaesthesia

aside, this is a problem that i have too

--

Gustavo replaces stungun0404. Please welcome him.

The slot which he got was determined by rolling dice, and should not be considered AI for any of the slots being replaced at this time.

hi!
--

I seriously don't understand. Did I misunderstand your post?

Are you saying Nauci is not playing up to her town meta?

are you saying that you're having trouble understanding what he means by the notation 'town!nauci'? it means nauci-with-a-town-alignment.

like when he says 'nauci is not feeling like town!nauci', he's saying that this-game nauci doesn't remind of the nauci-who-was-town that he's familiar with from some previous game

--

Who is the "they" here? Is "she" referring to the momrangal post I mentioned, or about me?

sorry, that was addressed at you; 'she' was referring to mom. ie i think mom may be wk'ing a tw mislynch

--

it's okay, right back atcha.

I just felt misrepped because I am not posting random stuff and don't do that as either alignment I just don't feel like I've had the time or the opportunity to actually present myself. you're fine I need to put more effort into obvtowning.

i really don't know if this lack of motivation is like AI here; and like the pressure clearly isn't going to make him do anything, so i think we can give him a few (irl) days to get back into it imo

I'm struggling to form townreads without sheeping at this point which is killing motivation further. Sorry to ruin your day but I'm town and I'm not getting mislynched today. Stop positioning me for a mislynch and move on to something else.

however i'm not sure what to make of this in this context (you know why i think)

--

Not_Mafia replaces Invisibility. Again, I rolled a dice to determine who replaces whom. It has been totally random that the first to request replacement is also the last to be replaced.

Please welcome Not_Mafia

hi!

--

Not_Mafia! Excellent. Easiest guy to read in the game. Such a simple mind. In a good way.

really? i iwish i had this skill