Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Gustavo]

Alright, if town has to work together, why aren't you working with me?

You showed an unwillingness to work with me. After reading your posts I no longer believe you are town. I won’t work with scum.

Have a good day

[Irrelephant11]

I’m not voting anyone else at this point

Talk about not being a team player. Nauci's made a case on me. I've made a case on Keyser. Lots of people have given reasons to think the worst is likely scum. Even if shoshin's scum, there's still two more to find and tons to talk about. I'm not asking you to quit playing, I'm just not seeing your point on Shoshin's votes

[Shoshin]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Because I want your reason.

Here was me saying I want your reason.

You haven’t provided one still.

Yeah, I interpreted this as you wanting an answer to why I voted Nauci without any reason, not you wanting an answer to the question of why I voted Nauci. Maybe if you asked less aggressive, more clear questions, you'd get the answers you're looking for.

[Gustavo]

Everything you've done from the moment you've entered this game has been needlessly aggressive towards me,

Asking you why you didn’t explain your vote wasn’t aggressive. Notice I asked everyone on that wagon who didn’t have a clear wagon the same question. The others haven’t answered but you were the one who responded with the unnecessary aggression. Not me.

I was trying to sort you. You refusing to answer my question was your attempt to allow yourself be sorted which I don’t attribute to town behavior.

[Shoshin]

Gustavo's "non-aggressive" question: "Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?"

The question Gustavo says he wanted an answer to: "Why did you originally vote Nauci?"

I though the qualification, "with absolutley no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior" was a very aggressive way to ask the question, so aggressive in fact that I didn't even think he was asking why I voted Nauci, I thought he was asking why I voted without reasoning.

Gustavo doesn't want to talk with me anymore because he's "convinced" that I'm scum, so maybe someone can ask him why he added those qualifications to his question.

[Shoshin]

It's curious that the first thing Gustavo does when entering the thread is ignore Stun's thoughts, look at the biggest wagon, decide the wagon is on town, and thus start questioning the votes on that player. I'm trying to picture this thought process - "Ignore thoughts of someone I know is town, assume biggest wagon in the game is on town, and thus question votes on biggest wagon" - as a town one. Struggling to see it. But input from others would be appreciated because I'm biased here.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, what're your thoughts on Gustavo? Town or scum?

[Irrelephant11]

I'm stuck, I was townreading stungun but I'm scumreading gustavo

Leaning scum

[Shoshin]

I wasn't really townreading Stun and I'm complely confused by Gustavo. Why the townread on Stun and why the scumlean on Gus?

[Irrelephant11]

hmmm browsing gustavo's meta gets me back toward a townread, though

I just think he's wrong

[Irrelephant11]

stungun never came across as informed, and came across pretty transparent

[Shoshin]

I never townread Stun the same way others have but I'm unsure what to think about Gus. I'm thinking a couple things.

One, he just played as scum in Tropical and his approach in that game was to jump onto opportunistic wagons but rarely start them. His play here is different on that score. But when you compare this to his play as town in Scientific, it looks nothing like it. He never had much confidence in his reads there, asked for input from others, and didn't push anything aggressively like this.

Two, his scumhunting approach here seems to be looking for the same sort of behavior that he exhibited as scum (i.e. looking for opportunistic behaviors) and that's sort of townie on his part. , so he's looking at who jumped onto the Nauci wagon (e.g. me, Mom, etc.). The approach makes sense given the way he played as scum, but it also assumes that Nauci is town and that bugs me.

[Shoshin]

The other problem with Gus is that his confidence that I'm scum feels entirely fake in the same way it felt fake in Tropical. He was so sure in Tropical that I was scum that he "townread" Invis because I suspected him. That overconfidence was really scummy because it showed that his read was fake. Here, he's over-the-top confident that I'm scum again in a way that doesn't make much sense. And when you compare to his play as town, there's nothing close to that level of confidence.

But then again, his thought process is absurdly black-and-white and maybe that's just the way he thinks. Dismissing the value of D1 and dismissing NM's style despite others actually having success reading NM are the hallmarks of someone who is so blindingly confident in themselves that anything they don't personally understand is dismissed as incapable of being understood by others.

[Shoshin]

hmmm browsing gustavo's meta gets me back toward a townread, though

I just think he's wrong

What part of his meta makes you think town? Did you peruse his town games?

[Gustavo]

It's curious that the first thing Gustavo does when entering the thread is ignore Stun's thoughts, look at the biggest wagon, decide the wagon is on town, and thus start questioning the votes on that player. I'm trying to picture this thought process - "Ignore thoughts of someone I know is town, assume biggest wagon in the game is on town, and thus question votes on biggest wagon" - as a town one. Struggling to see it. But input from others would be appreciated because I'm biased here.

I didn’t assume it was town though. The best thing to do when replacing into a game with many pages is to look at the largest current wagon. That’s going to give you the most relevant information.

[Gustavo]

stungun never came across as informed, and came across pretty transparent

This describes me btw

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah it was specifically Scientific Mafia where he has the same bluster and willingness to express anger as town, which were parts of my scumread of him here

[Irrelephant11]

stungun never came across as informed, and came across pretty transparent

This describes me btw

disagree. you "have no interest in voting nauci." (975)

This shows that you aren't just looking at the biggest wagon for info, you also have some sort of feeling about Nauci that

does

come across as informed

transparent I guess though

[Irrelephant11]

Also why are you so explicitly uninterested in voting the worst?

[Shoshin]

Gus, what's your read on Nauci?

[Gustavo]

stungun never came across as informed, and came across pretty transparent

This describes me btw

disagree. you "have no interest in voting nauci." (975)

This shows that you aren't just looking at the biggest wagon for info, you also have some sort of feeling about Nauci that

does

come across as informed

transparent I guess though

I developed a read based on the lack of reasons for a nauci wagon. That’s not being informed. That’s using information available to me to figure out if the wagon was a good one or not. There was very little reasoning from anyone on the wagon which to means it’s probably not on scum.

If nauci were scum I’d expect more of a case for her. I’d expect more people pushing hard for her. You’re making an incorrect assumption that I’m informed because of how quickly I was able to pick the wagon apart. That’s me just being efficient.

[Keyser Söze]

Gustavo since replacing in...

[Gustavo]

Also why are you so explicitly uninterested in voting the worst?

Because my top scum read deliberately misrepresented him. I don’t see that as a s/s interaction. I see that as a s/t one.

[Gustavo]

Gustavo since replacing in...

This game has too many posts with so few wagons. Cutting through the fluff seemed to be a good strategy and from my POV it’s working out pretty good even if I’ve ruffled some feathers.

[Irrelephant11]

A lot of shoshin's reason-less votes have been toward the end of creating wagons imo
That's what's pro-town about her play and her voting

Have you read my 879?
Look at math (who hasn't delivered on his Wednesday reads he promised), keyser (who I scumcased in 897), and gamma emerald if you want to see scummy voting (or lack therof)