Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Gustavo]

A lot of shoshin's reason-less votes have been toward the end of creating wagons imo
That's what's pro-town about her play and her voting

Idk what this means. End of creating wagons?

[Momrangal]

I voted nauci for a # of reasons, none of which are stated and one of said reasons are I'm itching for EoD and top two TRs are/were strongly advocating it

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry I worded that weird. I was trying to use the expression "to that end, ..."

Seems like Shoshin's goal in her reason-less vote was to make wagons. That's what I get from these, anyway

VOTE: momrangal

That's a decent vote, but you should join me on Stun!

I'm not quite ready to say why you should vote Stun but you should. Irrelephant has the idea.

[Gustavo]

Scums goal is to also make wagons. That’s not ai for me. I’m not really interested in talking about sho anymore. If you want to discuss other people lmk.

[Momrangal]

Why?

Bernie? 133, 135, 141, 142, 173, and 174 are all pretty townie. As i said before, I especially liked the way that he joined me on Stun but then switched onto Invis becuase he couldn't keep up the farce of voting someone he didn't actually find scummy. The entirety of that sequence of posts felt very town. And following those early posts, there's been a very natural thought process and a lot of progression in his reads, as seen in 187, 266, 323, 375, 388.

I can see where you're coming from with this, but as far as his early interaction with you regarding stun and invis, I think you may be giving him to much credit as far as progression goes.

I do agree that 388 is a solid post. But I feel like a large majority of them are kinda just sitting in the middle and when he does take a stance he does this weird "eh what do I know thing" like in post 375 . He also did it in 323 when pushing Dino, making it feel like he's subliminally excusing himself from taking responsibility from anything that happened. Making it easier to brush it off as oversight or some othet thing. Something I see scum do constantly, something I'm always noting (like I did in implos large game as well in a few games in my old account).

It's subtle tell that people have thought me crazy to point out but has outstanding accuracy.

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I would love your thoughts on Keyser Soze, skitter30, mathdino, gamma emerald

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I would love your thoughts on Keyser Soze, skitter30, mathdino, gamma emerald

@Not_Mafia add Nauci to this list, pick at least one, and give me a thought please thanks

[Momrangal]

I’m not going to argue this game. I’m done with you. You aren’t willing to cooperate clearly. It’s going to just piss me off and I need to stay chill because the mod I’m sure didn’t even want me to play.

For someone not willing to cooperate with others, she sure asking others for input quite a bit

[Momrangal]

As far as Gustavo goes, I'm kinda confused. I absolutely see him believing in what he's saying but I don't think that should exclude him from scum. As far as my own play goes, I push logic and cases that I personally believe myself to be pushing if I was town, and because of that, there's a level of authenticity to pushes. I don't think it unreasonable to see others do it.

That in mind, pushing shoshin here is very high risk high reward because it would be clear, if he is scum here, that Shoshin is the town leader here and shutting her down would eliminate town cohesion here in this game, which should be one of scums goals

[Irrelephant11]

blows my mind that keyser and bernie both have more posts than me (I'm #5 in posts) and I have so little hold on their reads.

off the top of my head, Bernie thinks tw is scum
Keyser thought skitter was scum but isn't sure of that anymore. He also wasn't sure about invisibility

???

gonna go re-read Bernie

[Gustavo]

I mean I would love your thoughts on Keyser Soze, skitter30, mathdino, gamma emerald

When I get some time I’ll iso them.

[Gustavo]

I’m not going to argue this game. I’m done with you. You aren’t willing to cooperate clearly. It’s going to just piss me off and I need to stay chill because the mod I’m sure didn’t even want me to play.

For someone not willing to cooperate with others, she sure asking others for input quite a bit

Cooperation is the process of working with others. She didn’t want to work with me and her asking people questions isn’t an example of that either. I can sit here and ask a billion questions but that doesn’t mean I’m cooperating.

Asking question is part of the game. It’s giving the appearance of scum hunting whether it be genuine or feigned.

[Gustavo]

As far as Gustavo goes, I'm kinda confused. I absolutely see him believing in what he's saying but I don't think that should exclude him from scum. As far as my own play goes, I push logic and cases that I personally believe myself to be pushing if I was town, and because of that, there's a level of authenticity to pushes. I don't think it unreasonable to see others do it.

That in mind, pushing shoshin here is very high risk high reward because it would be clear, if he is scum here, that Shoshin is the town leader here and shutting her down would eliminate town cohesion here in this game, which should be one of scums goals

Nobody should be putting shoshin as the town leader. Anyone who thinks she is will not be highly regarded by me.

[Gustavo]

blows my mind that keyser and bernie both have more posts than me (I'm #5 in posts) and I have so little hold on their reads.

off the top of my head, Bernie thinks tw is scum
Keyser thought skitter was scum but isn't sure of that anymore. He also wasn't sure about invisibility

???

gonna go re-read Bernie

So maybe engage with them like you have been with me. The best way to learn something is to ask questions. If they don’t answer you, then you have a justified reason to scum read them.

[Gustavo]

You said my predecessor was transparent. That’s the best thing town players can do. It’s super hard for scum to maintain fake transparency throughout an entire game. Scum have to be able to pivot when an opportunity arises and they can’t do that easily while being transparent.

[Irrelephant11]

I forgot Bernie voted math at one point for srs reasons

Bernie, thoughts on math now?
Also, talk to me about 388. What was your goal there, and why did you drop it when everyone ignored it?
640 you said "You are right in that I'm wondering if I might've given someone a pass too early here" - do you still feel this way?
What's your read on Nauci? You've had multiple clarifying questions on her but I don't see any direct thoughts from you since.
Why are you voting Gamma?

Any firm reads at this point?

pedit: I am engaging, but thanks for the help

[skitter30]

are you like trying to dismantle the nauci wagon?

No. I was just looking for a starting point because I’m not actually going to read every post that’s been made so far. Day 1 is the most useless day anyway so I figured I’d cut right to the chase.

ok but i'm like trying to explain that the nauci wagon isn't actually a thing right now; it's just where a few people are vote-sitting.

now that i think about it that's actually a really bad sign for the gamestate

--

Btw if you look at shoshin’s town game. His first serious vote on invisibility includes reasons with his vote - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10200938

His 2nd serious vote was on mumble and it included reasons - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10212098

His 3rd serious vote was on me and it included reasons - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10220015

His 4th vote lacked reason but his 5th had some.

Please somebody verify what I’ve just posted and see if what sho says below is truthful.

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

i really think that this is a fairly arbitrary metric and isn't super AI; she hasn't really voted that much in this game anyways.

--

i'm reasonably confident that she's town, and is prob close to one of my strongest townreads.

I’ll ask you to reconsider given the information I’ve provided so far. I don’t think you in good faith can maintain that given I’ve proven she has been dishonest. She used her dishonesty to paint me in a negative light.

I feel I’ve provided multiple reasons why she is a good lynch today.

My play may be odd to you but if you are actually town you have to admit that it’s proven effective especially if she flips scum

.

ok i did my hw and checked her scumgame and i don't think this game is like anything like that game; her posts her are incredibly more nuanced and exhibit, like, real thought when you compare that to here.

maybe i'll check her towngame if i'm bored later

i don't know where you think she's been dishonest.

and i really hate the bolded because i won't know if you're right till after she flipped - like i see no reason to believe that you can read her better than i can right now, and i won't have proof till she's dead (and incidentally secured a mislynch if she's town).

--

-skitter I am drunk dumb rn but can you explain what you mean by white knighting a tw lynch? Does that mean being against said lynch?

i mean i think she may be scum defending town!tw for the mislynch in the hopes of gaining towncred

--

But speaking of that, that’s not how you read not mafia. I’ve don’t think I’ve ever seen not mafia do pro town things as town. I often find myself wondering why not mafia even joins games because of how little they contribute. But anyway.

are you an alt? you're reminding of someone i played with once

As I said those are things I found suspicious, the fact she outright refused to answer a simple question. She lied saying she did that in the other game we played (I’ve just proven she lied) and I should somehow know better and then I think she accused me of misrepping her?

maybe i missed something but i'm not sure where you showed she lied? or can you give me more context than just 'she lied'
--

I’m willing to straight up policy lynch you for that alone because no town should refuse to explain themselves when asked, but thankfully you’ve done other things that are suspicious so I’m comfortable tunneling you.

i really don't think that's a pl worthy offense, and i still don't get on what basis you're tunneling her tbh

--

like 1037 exhibits the nuance that her scum game completely lacked imo

--

i don't really gus right now but i can't tell if that's a scum thing or a playstyle thing

i'm also getting not super great vibes from mom

i might be voting there soon i think

[skitter30]

i'm kinda waiting for math to come back

[Irrelephant11]

Honestly it feels like half the playerlist is, which is annoying.

[skitter30]

i mean i'm not like specifically waiting for him in order to do something, but i feel like his thoughts woudl be very helpful

there's like the same ~7 people who keep talking to each other and i feel like these other slots are going by the wayside

[skitter30]

eh, i want to do this for now

VOTE: mom

[Irrelephant11]

@Irrelephant:

I think that as any alignment, you should veer off from these syntactical lines of thinking. Phrasing/wording/slang/idioms/vocabulary is usually mostly reflective of someone's culture/education/personality. If you know that "this works well" means "corroborates the theory," you should analyze the thought behind it OR explain in detail why phrasing X would mean thought process Y vs "I personally would have used Y instead of X here." It would either improve your scum hunting as town, or reduce your empty shading opportunities as scum.

The "I want to watch them fight" comment seems like the same sentiment as your "hopefully it at least makes other players' ability to read us easier" from 707. I've always thought 1v1s were good for sorting those involved, as a 3rd party observer or participant.

The "this is an attempt to scum read me later" comments ping me BADLY. Those aren't reactions I ever would have had to those comments (if they were about me instead) unless I was scum with a "oh god they're onto me" kick. One post literally says he didn't even think about scumrelephant as a possibility and it was a blind spot, so I can only see fear/misdirection motivating "this reads as excitement," and I really don't draw a line from "you just know Nauci well" to "attempt to scumread [irrelephant] if nauci flips town"?

I think that I have done my best to be extremely pro-town thus far, but "doesn't suck up to Irrelephant" shouldn't be a point in my favor. If I were scum I'd be as afraid of townrelephant as townmathdino, and try to hide because after we pocketed flicker/teacher you couldn't possibly trust anyone buttering you up.

never responded to this

-Word choice is how I caught scum quickly and accurately in the game I replaced into with shosh. In this case, "this works well" seems like he's slipping how convenient it is to have a good excuse to scumread someone, and in hindsight the way he backs off skitter30 after waiting a while for the wagon to pick up makes this look even worse. Keyser what inspired you to back off skitter?

-the reason these are different is that our 1v1 happened naturally, whereas my problem with keyser was that it seemed he wanted to turn two other players against each other for his own benefit

-that's a fair reading re:blind spot. All I know is my own alignment, so it's easy for me to question when people challenge that. I'm learning it's a weakness of mine (unless you and keyser are both scum in which case I should trust myself MORE on this lol)

-I'm flattered that you compare me to towndino (as it seems many players respect him greatly, myself included), but all I was saying is that it's actually easier to see town paranoia motivation for your push on me than it is to see scum motivation. But it sounds like you are saying your approach to me is actually what you'd be doing regardless of alignment, which, okay? I'll keep that in mind, I guess.

[Gustavo]

Honestly it feels like half the playerlist is, which is annoying.

So stop waiting. Lurking as a strategy is a thing. Ask shoshin.

[Irrelephant11]

are you talking to me?

[Gustavo]

I haven't voted once

And that is a huge red flag.

With regards to gamma one could argue he’s avoiding this game. Last post here on Tuesday. Posted on site yesterday. Logged on today.