Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Keyser Söze]

I'm completely open to you explaining yourself? And confused why you won't

No thanks.

Looking at the nature of your scum read it is an obvious case of confirmation-bias. Even the innocent/NAI posts I have made, you have attached insidious scum-motivation to them . I think only other town/or scum (who know I am town) can help you. Nauci's earlier post did this exceptionally well.

[Irrelephant11]

But your refusal to answer for your own actions doesn’t make it easier for me to townread you
Also
-scum don’t have much incentive to convince me you’re town
-town doesn’t know you’re town

So just tell me your thoughts behind things? Don’t just “accept the scumread” (unless you’re scum)

[Shoshin]

36 seems to be asking whether I ever open games as scum by bussing teammates.

Irrelephant is right that Key's question implies that I could be scum here even if I lynch scum on D1.

[Gustavo]

Shoshin is still a woman, btw

Bad habit. I’m trying best I can.

[Gustavo]

I can't think of myself ever asking that as town at that point

Fine I get that. It’s sort of like my read on sho. I can’t see town doing what he has done but you town read him for it.

[Gustavo]

I'm saying your logic is wrong. Multiple people have objected to your reasoning and you haven't taken any of it in.

This still implies I’m town.

I’m not taking it in because those people aren’t really looking at his actions. They are biased because they already town read him and they refuse to consider a new perspective.

Nobody has explained why town sho would lie like he did, why town sho would refuse to answer me, or even why town show would accuse others of misrepping when he is guilty of it himself.

So since nobody can do that, their opinions don’t really hold any weight.

This is basically multiple cases of conf.bias.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma Emerald ISO re-read:

Entitled 'A Tale of WIFOM'.
Took over 5 posts to get Gamma to share a simple observation/opinion/read, despite a page one break from RVS.
Told me he wants to "kick back" this game, so indirectly acknowledges his distant/laboured start. I wanted The Incredible Hulk, he was giving me comatose Bruce Banner.
Early game, seemed to be more interested in finding out who Bernie Sanders was an alt of instead of finding out who was scum
Gamma then challenges both Shoshin and Invisibility. Would class it as pro-active surface level scum hunting. He's looking for meaning, but it's easy work so far, so not gonna applaud.
Gamma talks a bit game theory with Soshin. Playing the nice/helpful guy so far... but later says skitter's "logic kinda seems weak". I prefer this more pointed play. Still not enough aggressive scum hunting for me though.
I called his early play "distant and nice", Gamma comes back and says: "I want to enjoy this as much as possible, getting into a big stink kinda defeats that goal". Gamma is fully aware (or says he is fully aware) of the non-aggressive tone he is demonstrating. Thus, he acknowledges he'll likely stick out among the loud/abrasive/tenacious characters in the playerlist.

Keyser if you put your sus on me aside for the moment who do you think is scum?

I kinda question the motive of this type of post: it reads like trying to subtly make someone drop the read they're being told to set aside

This suspicion involves me as the victim, so it resonated with me for a while, and added another shade to my suspicion of Bernie Sanders. I hope Gamma follows up this with more questions to BS.

honestly fair, but I didn't see any continuation of this, however he never answered why I shouldn't be harping on him about this.

What have I done to deserve being higher? You haven't seemed to have that high of an opinion of me so far so this is off-color imo.

Yes, feels like Gamma questioning the sincerity of my frustration/suspicion of his slot. He notices a CONTRADICTION. But it does demonstrate he is actually

very aware

of players who are not town reading him (I never called him outright 'scum', but I have been keeping him in my sight all game, nudging and poking him).

Decides NSG's rep out wasn't AI: "Yeah nsg flaking out is ehhh but given the ubiquitous drop-out I think it's passable". Wouldn't scum want to keep all replace out slots in the lynchable zone?

[INSERT FROM LATER]

one thing I can say is relevant is the idea that the replace outs were all scum.

Oh... Gamma has changed his tune.. please confirm Gamma



Still too much fixation over who he thinks BS is. Needs to be more serious.

Defends Momrangel over Bernie's accusation that her stances were not actually stances/sitting on hard-read people. Is Gamma developing a scum read on Bernie...?

I have multiple townreads but no scumreads

Not even a s/lean on Bernie?
[LATER]

Bernie Sanders kinda feels town

OK, I was way off. Definitely thought he cast some doubt in your head surely though...?

Just because I disagreed with Bernie's stance doesn't mean that I should scumread them. Pretty poor reasoning there.

I haven't voted once

Gamma's "no scumreads" comment is backed up by the point that he hasn't voted anyone. However, if he's finding it hard to sort players why not use your vote? He surely isn't hard town reading everyone. Why not step on people's toes, provoke reactions, follow up your suspicions. You can't play this sit-on-fence periphery figure without expecting the wrath of other players questioning your behaviour (quite a WIFOM element in favour of him, as it would be so easy to lynch him for his backseat persona). The way he said "I haven't voted once" sounded like he was open and proud of that fact too

I wasn't proud of it, I was just stating it's kinda weird to judge me with the other non-voters given that fact.

Gustavo is the ONE player I feel Gamma has interacted with directly (with emotion?). Gamma does look torn on Gustavo.

you obviously aren't reviewing my most recent play if this is your conclusion on the matter.

These are Gamma's null/scum leans:

Nauci tbd
Momrangal haven't gotten anything solid yet
Not_Mafia a bit scummish
the worst could be scum
Gustavo could be irrational town or scum
northsidegal blech

I wish I'd seen more direct interactions with these players. A town player should be showing more signs of frustration with so many unresolved players.

Nauci and Gustavo don't really count among those, NM yeah I want to interact but that require his participation too, Momrangal is honestly the one I most want to chat with out of those, tw hasn't been too active, and putting nsg on there is just foul cos the slot was inactive, so how could I interact? This point kinda makes me scumread Keyser a bit.

A lot more engagement how? If I need to be more engaged, what the fuck do you want from me? If others need to be more engaged with me that's placing the burden of removing the scumread on other people which isn't fair to me because regardless of what I do if no one else does what you want "oh no one is engaging with him, SCUM!!!!"

Oh dear lord.

*FEELS INTENSFIES*

has Gamma finally cracked?

I mean in a sense yeah? I'm not very happy with the standard Nauci seems to be judging me from.

Some conclusions soon.

@Gamma - what do you think my read of you should be right now, based on my above opinions of your play so far?

Honestly I'd expect a scumread, but some of your stuff feels questionable. I'll be sure to work on a write up of a couple of questions to some of the people you reminded me of (Bernie, Momrangal, NM, EP)

[Gustavo]

Btw gamma, The fact you went a majority of the day without voting anyone is a huge red flag. The few times I’ve seen that those people flipped scum. Even if I’m wrong and you are actually town, it’s shameful you’ve done that.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm saying your logic is wrong. Multiple people have objected to your reasoning and you haven't taken any of it in.

This still implies I’m town.

I’m not taking it in because those people aren’t really looking at his actions. They are biased because they already town read him and they refuse to consider a new perspective.

Nobody has explained why town sho would lie like he did, why town sho would refuse to answer me, or even why town show would accuse others of misrepping when he is guilty of it himself.

So since nobody can do that, their opinions don’t really hold any weight.

This is basically multiple cases of conf.bias.

But sho didn't even lie? I'm gonna need you to demonstrate how what she has said about her meta is a lie. As for refusing to answer you maybe it's because she thinks you're not judging her fairly so she sees no point? As for misrepping haven't paid attention to that so I may need to look that over myself.

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw gamma, The fact you went a majority of the day without voting anyone is a huge red flag. The few times I’ve seen that those people flipped scum. Even if I’m wrong and you are actually town, it’s shameful you’ve done that.

I think that's the first time I've done that in any game. Honestly I'm not happy with it myself because it makes me feel like I'm dead weight.

[Keyser Söze]

Don’t just “accept the scumread” (unless you’re scum)

Town can accept a scum-read on themselves Your scum-tell book is again short sighted
It's about sussing out if anything I say will actually help you sort me. Judging by the nature of your scum read... I doubt it.
Me defending myself ain't gonna help me find scum, but it would help to stop a potential misslynch.


If you think I am being anti-town or grossly damaging to the game then I may spend a few hours addressing everything you have wrote about me. Don't want anyone feeling like that.

Moreover,

if I'm L-1

, or if the majority scum read me, I promise I will pro-actively defend myself with great passion and immense conviction

[Shoshin]

Key, what're your current reads?

[Keyser Söze]

This point kinda makes me scumread Keyser a bit

I think my point was fair.

I think you should have shown more... town-

impetus

,

initiative

,

urgency

...

Do you think the motivation I've seen you demonstrate this game co-relates with the ideal town player in my head: showing initiative when faced with a lack of strong reads?

Why couldn't I be a disappointed townie @Gamma? Don't know why you jumped to "scumread Keyser".

[Gustavo]

But sho didn't even lie?

She did and I proved she did. That’s my issue right now. How can do many people deny actual proof is beyond me.

[Gustavo]

I'm gonna need you to demonstrate how what she has said about her meta is a lie.

Did that already. She said she doesn’t give reasons or whatever (can’t remember the exact phrase) but most of her votes has reason. She said I should know based off her meta she doesn’t do this but her meta showed she did.

That’s a lie. A straight up, bold faced lie

[Keyser Söze]

Key, what're your current reads?

Gonna explore scum-Bernie Sanders-Momrangal.

[Gustavo]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Btw if you look at shoshin’s town game. His first serious vote on invisibility includes reasons with his vote - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10200938

His 2nd serious vote was on mumble and it included reasons - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10212098

His 3rd serious vote was on me and it included reasons - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10220015

His 4th vote lacked reason but his 5th had some.

Please somebody verify what I’ve just posted and see if what sho says below is truthful.

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Sorry but the 1 time late game isn’t enough to make her statement true. Almost every vote had reasons. There were a couple other votes that she brings up later and I explained why I didn’t count those not. She confused her games and those votes around that time seemed to be related to them.

[Irrelephant11]

Gustavo have you glanced at Shoshin's town game in "Newbie 1869 | Stuff I found online II"?

[Gustavo]

And damn you for making me talk about that bullshit again.

[Gustavo]

Gustavo have you glanced at Shoshin's town game in "Newbie 1869 | Stuff I found online II"?

No. Why would I?

[Irrelephant11]

Well I'm having trouble knowing if you still scumread Nauci for her naked vote but regardless it's Shoshin's most recent town meta and it's relevant to a lot of things you are thinking/saying

[Irrelephant11]

*scumread shoshin lol when you've been ISOing one player and try to talk about another

[Gustavo]

my internet is acting up due to some outage and I am low on data so bbl

[Gustavo]

Well I'm having trouble knowing if you still scumread Nauci for her naked vote but regardless it's Shoshin's most recent town meta and it's relevant to a lot of things you are thinking/saying

the only reason I was looking at that game was because she mentioned that game. She said I should know better because that is what she did that game.

The reality of the matter is I was super busy during that game and barely paid attention, especially since town was attacking each other. I honestly didn't really remember much about her and only pushed her after a specific incident made her look bad. That incident was due to another idiot townie and not sho's fault but of course as scum I was taking advantage of it.

So when THIS game she says she is doing what she did in that game, I quickly iso'd her and searched for "vote:" and learned that she gave reasons for her first couple of serious votes outside of rvs. That alone makes this game different than that game and her comparison of the 2 is a farce.

Now she could very well be town here and just mis-remembered, but she didn't say that after I showed the difference. She didn't even respond to me when I showed her the differences. Guilty go silent. Town defend themselves imo.

That is where I am at and unless I see an innocent result on her, which I won't see today, I am sticking with MY read. I don't care if nobody else agrees with me. I accepted that and have moved on to gamma. Talking about my read of sho is pointless and if we are both town, scum is laughing about it because that is how scum won that other game.

That is where I am leaving it. I am going to try and just put my scum read of her on the backburner and start looking for other scum. I don't want to tunnel anymore and I don't want to argue. it's statistically proven to be detriment to town when these kinds of arguments happen.

I like a gamme lynch, i'd be ok with maybe a math or skitter lynch also. The worst and nauci I feel are townish to me and anyone else not mentioned I don't have a read on them yet.

Please do not ask me about sho anymore today. There is literally nothing else I can say that I haven't already.

Thank you

[Irrelephant11]

Okay

Your scumread of math is new, tell me more there