Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[skitter30]

like half of your case was based on meta and whether or not she gives reasons for votes

No my case has absolutely nothing to do with meta. The point of the meta dive was to prove she lied. The lying, not cooperating, refusing to provide a reason for her vote, and misrepping other players while accusing me of it are basically why I’m scum reading.

If town can you please try better at reading comprehension? It makes the game so much easier if you actually know what you’re talking about before speaking.

Thank you

lol ok; can't say i've often had people complain about *my* reading comprehension

i think that you're too rigid and that you're basically pushing her on the basis of lynch all liars when i don't realy think it's like a signifcant or meaningful or ai lie.

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also, again, can you show me where you think she was lying?

I honestly don’t believe you didn’t see the post.

i didn't, skimmed back through your ISO, wasn't sure what you were talking about, so ctrl+F'd for 'lied', and the first hit was you saying 'she lied' but there was no context in that post. so i asked.

and it has since been demonstrated that she hadn't.

honestly i don't think this is a fruitful topic of discussion from either of you

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He did lie. Quite blatantly and because he tried to use that lie against me, it makes it AI

i really don't think she did. i think you're making a mountain out of a molehill; i'm still deciding if this is scummy or just how you approach the game in general; maybe i'll do a meta dive if i'm motivated to do so

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Gustavo I'd just solely read on the basis of stungun who I highly doubt could've had anything near that level of thought in his scumrange as a newbie

yeah i'm probably just going to do this tbh

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nauci is probably town too

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this post scumpings me

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Mom, what's your current read on Gamma?

I'm hung up on it.

Gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right.

Wagon comp could be better and I may be hung up on the fact that Bernie is on there. It doesn't seem like much of a bus placement but in my mind, both Bernie and gamma have decent chance of flipping scum but I don't see much associations between them.

That aside, I feel like gamma has been getting a little bit more engaged and I don't want to discourage that especially when I think I see some probing I don't remember coming from scum gamma

this post is gross and fence-sitty. 'gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right' - like what does this even mean?

like you're supporting and promoting the gamma wagon in a non-tangible way without actually joining it.

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Irrelephant's 171 is the towniest post in the game (172 pretty town too but it's just in the standard way)

why on 171? i don't think that's a particularly townie post tbh. it's like nai to me.

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Townreading Errant, Shoshin, Momrangal

wait why on errant and mom?

i don't think errant's posting is ai, and mom's is pretty scummy imo

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I need to find the 3rd scum. I’m not reading the entire game though. I guess I can just iso random people

so, if you think shoshin and gamma are scum, why do you think shoshin is voting gamma right now?

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@Gamma - what do you think my read of you should be right now, based on my above opinions of your play so far?

this is a really weird question

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Nobody has explained why town sho would lie like he did, why town sho would refuse to answer me, or even why town show would accuse others of misrepping when he is guilty of it himself.

you're arguing from the perspective - i don't see town motivation for what she did. town players do that all the time.
i think it's more insightful to look for *scum* motivation instead of looking for lack of town motivation

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Btw gamma, The fact you went a majority of the day without voting anyone is a huge red flag. The few times I’ve seen that those people flipped scum. Even if I’m wrong and you are actually town, it’s shameful you’ve done that.

i do this fairly frequently as town, although i do it less often now. i can point to several games where i've done this, especially day1. (or just keep my RVS vote till close to deadline)

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But sho didn't even lie?

She did and I proved she did. That’s my issue right now. How can do many people deny actual proof is beyond me.

the cog-dis is strong with this one

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eh you might be town even if i disagree with like everything you say.

have you ever pushed a lynch/scumread this strongly before as town?

I like a gamme lynch, i'd be ok with maybe a math or skitter lynch also.

why me?

[Shoshin]

this post is gross and fence-sitty. 'gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right' - like what does this even mean?

Hmm, good point on Mom.

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Bernie Sanders

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Bernie Sanders

Why not Mom?

[Irrelephant11]

I actually have a feeling

VOTE: bernie sanders

[skitter30]

i kinda want a mom wagon to be a thing

my gut's screaming that gamma is a mislynch. it doesn't really feel like a wagon on scum to me

[Shoshin]

I actually have a feeling

VOTE: bernie sanders

I thought you scumread Key? Why would you follow him onto Bernie?

[Irrelephant11]

I do but I think he might be bussing
or if he's town, I think he might be right
either way works

[skitter30]

Irrelephant can you talk more about why you're townreading mom please?

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Bernie Sanders

Why not Mom?

I already scum lean read BS in isolation. I feel like I would live in regret if I never voted for BS. My bad feelings for Mom correspond with a web of associations with scum-BS.

[Irrelephant11]

I've been staring at votecounts for like an hour+ trying to draw conclusions that don't require flips. Obviously there's not a lot to find but I can rule some associations out that I hadn't thought to otherwise

Bernie is not scum with (and is therefore less likely to be aligned with) math, shoshin, momrangal, not_mafia, skitter, or nauci, all but one of whom I'm townreading, and who can townread not_maf at this point? (sidenote: it's hilarious to me that not_maf is the perfect replacement to carry the torch of invisibility's playstyle)

His likely partners if he flips scum are keyser, gustavo, the worst, gamma, and errantparabola which is actually a pretty good lynchpool

Meanwhile Keyser's most likely partners are Nauci, skitter, not_mafia, errantparabola, and bernie

I might be doing this wrong but I've spent a lot of time trying to pull useful information out of the votecounts and keyser voting bernie was fascinating to me after doing that and I want to wagon bernie now

pedit: I will say more about mom later I gotta go

[Keyser Söze]

You should vote who you think is scum mate. Not who you think i’m bussing. I may be wrong about BS.

I.e if I flip scum, then look at my associations.

[Irrelephant11]

I should vote who I have reason to vote for. You really have a lot of advice for me, “mate”

If you think my thought progression is
1. Keyser is scum
2. Bernie is a plausible Keyser buddy
3. Vote Bernie

You’re not reading me right

[Keyser Söze]

Sorry, I misunderstood the labels on your readslist and what you meant by “bussing”. Must be a language thing.

I thought you vote your ‘scum’ reads.

[Irrelephant11]

momrangel actually came back with a bang.

Did I now?

Scum Mom could just take the compliment/let someone else question this for her. Meh this is a small point

I am rethinking my read on Bernie, and I think he's going after low hanging fruit duck.

Bernie made a huge ass case on duck, and his tone and I agree with the lack of direction but I entirely disagree with duck being given enough space. I have that slot as null, but I honestly don't find his pred scummy outside the supposed semi-trustish whatever tell you want to call it regarding him replacing out. Even if whatsherface and skits (I think it was) told each other that they were excited to play the same alignment, I don't think replacing out should ever be alignment indicative and no one really has given duck a chance to do more than get his feet wet.

He even said that the wagon would have zero effect because he lacks time and wouldn't have it later in the week but absolutely no one has payed attention to that little tidbit.

Further more, this case on duck came when after duck said he wouldn't have any time to defend himself, and after duck is at a vulnerable L-2 (1?) position making it completely viable that duck gets lynched before he even had more time to get himself busy.

He also pushes duck but still takes a wholly neural stance on the matter so that, when popular scum read duck flips town, he can take the blame off himself considerably easier than most others gunning for his lych

Defending the worst comes across as towny to me here given how widely scumread tw was at the time - unless they’re scum together, in which case this seems like pretty bad play?

Why?

Bernie? 133, 135, 141, 142, 173, and 174 are all pretty townie. As i said before, I especially liked the way that he joined me on Stun but then switched onto Invis becuase he couldn't keep up the farce of voting someone he didn't actually find scummy. The entirety of that sequence of posts felt very town. And following those early posts, there's been a very natural thought process and a lot of progression in his reads, as seen in 187, 266, 323, 375, 388.

I can see where you're coming from with this, but as far as his early interaction with you regarding stun and invis, I think you may be giving him to much credit as far as progression goes.

I do agree that 388 is a solid post. But I feel like a large majority of them are kinda just sitting in the middle and when he does take a stance he does this weird "eh what do I know thing" like in post 375 . He also did it in 323 when pushing Dino, making it feel like he's subliminally excusing himself from taking responsibility from anything that happened. Making it easier to brush it off as oversight or some othet thing. Something I see scum do constantly, something I'm always noting (like I did in implos large game as well in a few games in my old account).

It's subtle tell that people have thought me crazy to point out but has outstanding accuracy.

This made sense to me at the time and affected my read of Bernie

[Irrelephant11]

Her low activity seems tied to real life, not alignment (or at least she’s said so once or twice)
And her associatives leave me with no real scumteams that make sense to me? So I’d really have to be misreading someone else for her to be scum I think
ISO does leave much to be desired though so I get the scumread

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry, I misunderstood the labels on your readslist and what you meant by “bussing”. Must be a language thing.

I thought you vote your ‘scum’ reads.

No I think you’re literally reading the meaning of my words correctly, you’re just misunderstanding the intention of my vote
Also the longer post about associatives does imply that I scumread Bernie a little more than I did before

For some reason this post of yours feels towny, hmmm

[Keyser Söze]

Sorry, I misunderstood the labels on your readslist and what you meant by “bussing”. Must be a language thing.

I thought you vote your ‘scum’ reads.

No I think you’re literally reading the meaning of my words correctly, you’re just misunderstanding the intention of my vote
Also the longer post about associatives does imply that I scumread Bernie a little more than I did before

For some reason this post of yours feels towny, hmmm

I was being sarcastic (unless you’re t/reading my sarcasm).

[Momrangal]

this post is gross and fence-sitty. 'gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right' - like what does this even mean?

Guess it means I'm scum getting cold feet from a Gamma!bus

Realtalk tho, you're pulling this out of context

[Keyser Söze]

You can’t see any Bernie-Mom associations?

(Don’t wanna delve too much into without a flip though)

[Momrangal]

VOTE: bernie

[Keyser Söze]

@Gamma - what do you think my read of you should be right now, based on my above opinions of your play so far?

this is a really weird question

I wanted him to realise how much of a lynchbait-type persona he’d become in my eyes.

However, he ended up scum reading me for my observations of him... so not the desired effect

[Nauci]

@Nauci I never asked about scum!irrelephant?
And how am I your other top pick based on that logic?

You asked me how the Gustavo interactions helped my reads, so I explained the two reads that I now have more data points for because of his interactions

You are the other poster who is currently active and needs a lot more engagement to swing my scum vibe, versus nsg/tw/etc.

I have no idea how to even get nm to converse so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A lot more engagement how? If I need to be more engaged, what the fuck do you want from me? If others need to be more engaged with me that's placing the burden of removing the scumread on other people which isn't fair to me because regardless of what I do if no one else does what you want "oh no one is engaging with him, SCUM!!!!"

I understand why you read my words in that manner, but I'd like to clarify that "more engagement" meant literally just more words/posts. I haven't seen enough posts to really get a feel on what your thought processes or emotions or whatever else are like, and I generally read people by what I feel like their point of view/thought processes may have been. I have seen a bit that could be scummy, and I haven't seen enough that feels very town to me to change that evaluation much. I just need more content from you, regardless of what you comment on or who interacts with you.

Do you *need* someone to prod you in order to post? Why not just comment on the relatively dramatic events thus far? It's not like our arguments are a VIP only party and you're not invited.

VOTE: gamma

The fact he’s not voted all game and his first vote is on me and his reason basically implies he knows I’m town is a red flag for me

I can’t be scum who doesn’t give a shit if I’m wrong. I’m fairly obviously town. He’s not scum hunting imo.

How can't you be that? Despite half or more of the game telling you you're wrong you're still bullrushing the "shoshin is scum for lying" idea. As I see it you will never consider a counterargument because it doesn't fit your scum agenda.

Being wrong implies I don’t know sho’s alignment. So I can’t be wrong and scum.

I can be scum pushing a mislynch but you didn’t say that. I could easily call that a scum slip on your part.

Me as scum would be stupid to push somebody everyone is town reading because of the negative attention I’d receive, and look. I’m receiving negative attention.

I don't have an alignment read to this statement but I just wanted to say that lying and being wrong look exactly the same to us, so it's useless to say "if you think I'm wrong then you don't think I'm scum" because scum would be purposely wrong and town would be unintentionally wrong.

Shoshin is still a woman, btw

It's just a weird question coming from Keyser. He doesn't ask "Do you replicate this way of getting out of RVS as scum?" he specifically asks "Do you replicate this strategy as scum and actually lynch your own partners?"

I can't think of myself ever asking that as town at that point

Whereas scum afraid of being caught having "taken the bait" (something he gets weirdly focused on for long after everyone else has stopped talking about it) might lampshade the idea that if Shoshin had successfully caught scum that could somehow be scum-indicative for her, which doesn't make sense?

So I'm really not understanding your complaint here? It seemed like a super standard "do you do X when you are scum?" meta question? I mean it's asking someone to self meta so efficacy is questionable but it's like how I keep saying you shouldn't be town read because X and you were perfectly capable of doing X as scum, so knowing whether someone does X as scum is important.

I had personally read "caught the bait" as in "scum like to make a lot of noise over very little so they don't have to make noise over the big things and still look like they're making noise." I read "bait" as "opportunity for faking effort" and that shosh's posts about math were the kind of low hanging fruit scum would love to attack.

It's just a weird question coming from Keyser. He doesn't ask "Do you replicate this way of getting out of RVS as scum?" he specifically asks "Do you replicate this strategy as scum and actually lynch your own partners?"

I can't think of myself ever asking that as town at that point

Whereas scum afraid of being caught having "taken the bait" (something he gets weirdly focused on for long after everyone else has stopped talking about it) might lampshade the idea that if Shoshin had successfully caught scum that could somehow be scum-indicative for her, which doesn't make sense?

I'll let Nauci attempt to explain my play again, and how you've miss-read it.

You are short-sighted in viewing my behaviour mate. [

I don't see it as scum-Irrelephant miss-repping me though, just town-Irrelephant being very shortsighted

]

@Nauci - over to you.

Goddamnit how did you know

[Nauci]

I'm completely open to you explaining yourself? And confused why you won't

So I normally wouldn't have made the post I just did but I TR Keyser pretty hard because I felt like I had a pretty good grasp of his train of thought and what he was trying to communicate

I do really hate this behavior though, so I will not be doing it again; Keyser clarify your own damn interactions >:C

[Nauci]

@Nauci I never asked about scum!irrelephant?
And how am I your other top pick based on that logic?

You asked me how the Gustavo interactions helped my reads, so I explained the two reads that I now have more data points for because of his interactions

You are the other poster who is currently active and needs a lot more engagement to swing my scum vibe, versus nsg/tw/etc.

I have no idea how to even get nm to converse so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A lot more engagement how? If I need to be more engaged, what the fuck do you want from me? If others need to be more engaged with me that's placing the burden of removing the scumread on other people which isn't fair to me because regardless of what I do if no one else does what you want "oh no one is engaging with him, SCUM!!!!"

Before I finish my catch up I just keep mentally going back to posts like these

So much of your content was fluff (Bernie speculation, "I don't feel like posting" posts, posts like these, etc.). I FOS you for the exact same reasons that I did back in page 5, just a little less because there's *some* engagement on the board.

But this reaction to my read of you just strikes me as strange and I don't have time to meta-dive you to figure out what it means for your alignment.