NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[profii]

PS I think I know but I wont out you... I dunno if I'm allowed to PM you whilst we are playing

[Skygazer]

@HitAlt I've done some thinking. So my understanding of the honeypot is:

It gives you reason to vote for someone (me) who you described as potential lynchbait. By calling it a honeypot it seems like you're trying to preemptively distance yourself from any criticisms of voting for lynchbait. If I were to be lynched and flip town then you say (in 654) that you have three early wagoners (brass, t_w and ausuka) to examine after the honeypot. The thing is, if you're scum, you could easily tell your partners to not vote for me after your initial vote and catch some more potential mislynches for later through your "honeypot." This whole thing seems like a really convenient way for you to line up multiple mislynches through easily fakeable VCA's later in the game.

[dramonic]

basically he started out by saying "these three people are the scum team" and as soon as people started to apply, like, any scrutiny at all to the idea of guessing the scum team that early, he was like "ACTUALLY I just think this one person is scum and the other two are scum leans. I made this assertion for Very Smart Reasons"

Last post of my spam for now - this is flawed.
Go check the situation and posting around my accused backpedaling.
My honeypot got very mild scrutiny and critique towards it in the start, and I actually got three votes on SkyG before I revealed why I had done what I did.
Now tell me this:

why would I "backpedal" on those "faked scumreads" as scum?

It would only fit if I was scum WITH Sky, and was afraid that the "bus" would go through.
Which I'm not, and I wasn't either - I still would like for us to lynch SkyG because I believe there's a high chance for scum there, and even if not red, it would help me advance my VCA for tomorrow.

So assuming scum!Hit, I would've brought myself to the front, called a list of people I'm willing to lynch (most of who propably could've been lynched as well), and then made an unnecessary soft-turn to annoy people?
Solid theory - pick another.

Don't twist so hard you're gonna hurt yourself.

[Taly]

@Taly

– I’m not sure how much depth you are looking for in my response to you.

First off the answer that I’m least happy with is your answer to the “Townreads” query from me. I know you aren’t Dave. However that whole answer feels like a sort-of meandering tour. You really sort of sidestepped the whole issue of why you asked in the first place if having Townreads in the first 24 hours isn’t unreasonable. Frankly the whole question was driven by the way you opened the question to me in the first place. The “Ugh” insinuated that somehow there was an expectation that I should have more to say about Town. Which I think would be pretty damn odd for the first 24 hours of the game regardless of how much a player normally gives Townreads. Which what little direct experience with me you have should have suggested I’m much more a scum-read driven player.

The "ugh" was because I read through your posts and didn't see townreads so I wasn't very sure of your thinking originally.

And meh, I don't meta-read people unless I've been in more than 1 game in with them - or, that 1 game I'm in with the player lasted for awhile and we survived through multiple dayphases.

So I didn't really pick up on you being a scum-read driven player. As scum in

Echo Bay

, I was focused on not getting shot by you LOL

My followup to you is this – how much game-solve should you expect from a brand new player in a Large game where there is a pretty sizeable group of players who seem well acquainted with each other? I had communication before the game even finished signups with Pine in which he confirmed to me Sky was a completely new account and not an alt. That upon replacing in you immediately started scum-reading a completely raw player didn’t set well with my gut.

As a newer player, I can see why someone would still be forming their approach to Mafia and thus reads, and Large games were hell for me in 2015. But I don't think about the joindate of a player until it's pointed out, or I look out of curiosity.

I didn't know

Sky

was new. Never saw

Inferno, Gustavo,

or

Andrius

before.

the worst, Chickadee, xyzzy, brassherald, profii, Ausuka, MoI (you)

are all people I either talk to a lot on MS, or have played with before.

My scumread on

Sky

wasn't immediate as in it happened the moment I replaced in.

It was my impression of the first 9 pages I read through, which dissipated when I caught up.

And no, alts almost never influence my reads unless I 100% know who they are and have played with them before.

What do I think of profii – I don’t per-se. He’s in my deep null pool at the moment (other members included xyzzy and HewhoSwims). There’s a bit of chummy “be friends” from him that I find reminiscent of Firebringer and thus want to dismiss. His posting really just reads as “there”. I’d really have to give him a deep ISO dive to move him in either direction as it stands. And I have other irons in the fire right now.

Since he appears to be in your Town pool why don’t you give me some wordage behind that? Thanks.

profii's

not a strong townread, partially because my read on him is meta.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75347 - I hammered him D3, I got NKed N5.

profii

was scum in that game, and he had a very scattered and inconsistent line of progression with his reads, votes, and thoughts in the game from what I remembered, and what made me lean to him being scum.

So far here, I don't get the same vibe. I don't like that

profii

is doing the same thing by waiting for a wagon to go on, but

profii

in this game so far has evaluated several more wagons and is not focused on certain players to lynch like he had an agenda in

Elemental Large

He's also more centered on his own independent thoughts this game.

((When has he mentioned that he should sheep?))

It's not strong reasoning even as meta, but it's enough to make me say

"no lynching this"

now

Speaking of which, I've done fuckall to gamesolve but everyone in this game townreads me. Guarantee scum cozying up to me in hope that my whimsical and flippant nature can make me easy to sway, or something.

This is how I feel about the playerlist and being scumread right now.

I hope I'm not being put to the side only to be set up as a mislynch later.

Taly apparently didn't get my point about not wanting them lynched D1, but trying to force my point across is likely not very smart.

Yeah. I totally got that you don't want my lynch D1.

I don't like that.

For someone that likes point that there's scum within multiple pools or groups of people, you definitely don't try to resolve your scumreads and you shelving me leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Also, I still want to hear

Dramonic/Chick/Sky

-scum idea.

[Raskolnikov]

Have some time for this this afternoon please don't prod me

[Andrius]

vote: HitAlt

VOTE: HitAlt

ITS HAPPENING

Lol
VOTE: HitAlt

This is easily the worst thing you could do at this point.
Join a wagon on a player we actually should and/or can lynch today.
Whether you like my antics or not I am not scum, and will not be lynched this game. (or on this alt for that matter unless town enjoys trolling)

also this is such a bad post. catastrophically bad

Par for the course, really.

Hey Andy … first let me say Happy Birthday to you! Also as an aside sometime out of game you need to fill me in on the full story regarding Plum and 2017 … I am definitely out of the loop and feel like there is something very cool there I missed out on in Bakerland.

Thanks. I'll try to post mornings/evenings the next couple days.

I'll hit you up. I'm more a Paladin these days than a Baker; haven't even touched the flour yet this game.

On to the topic of HitAlt – while part of me would be happy to wagon on policy. I mean I have had my fill of hidden alts who act inscrutable, arrogant and needlessly opaque about their thoughts and almost Outed from the signups when I saw HitAlt join. Reading 729 almost pushed me to it. But I know my absolute disdain for hidden alts is completely clouding my judgement on whether HitAlt is scummy or just playing a dumb game behind the mask of an alt. Can you say that you honestly that you aren’t just turned off by his posting style as opposed to seeing scum intent? If so I’ll happily devote some time to a detailed read on HitAlt.

I'll consider this further, but you should know I didn't start this as a policy lynch. I think there's a decent chance of them being scum underneath the layers of ego yet I will consider your words. Like I'm considering Rask.

Yes, its a hidden alt with poor game. Honestly Rask is more turning me off play-wise and I realize that since its basically the laundry dilemma for me all over again. Except the batting average that game was .333 on the trouble people.

Its more like, this game is supposed to be chill so my usual THROW THE SWORD and/or RALLY THE FAITHFUL and/or hooking myself to the game with an IV isn't really on the menu since that's a very intense crusade against scum and this is supposed to be chill.

What do I think of profii – I don’t per-se. He’s in my deep null pool at the moment (other members included xyzzy and HewhoSwims). There’s a bit of chummy “be friends” from him that I find reminiscent of Firebringer and thus want to dismiss.

I know this wasn't meant for me, but this actually helps me out somewhat, thanks.

I just can't find the energy to check who they were exactly, but undoubtedly some combination of the people I poked at..go figure.

This game could use more effort and less sportscasting.

Andrius replaced Gus, right?
While a welcome change in many ways, I think their reads were a bit shaky in that catchup.
Also the way they kept building to that "vote HitAlt with me" before reaching Infernos vote on me in their catchup..yea it feels like scum faking it.
I like Andrius the person, but not Andrius the character..! (anyone? know the reference?)

Yes, I did.
It was the first post in. Ofc I don't have a firm grasp on everything. Usually I'm a mid-game replacement and got gamedays of text and a few weeks/months of content to work with so I come in with very firm reads. The game was 3 days old when I walked in the door.

Game's chill. Me starting a crusade and/or throwing the sword when I smell blood is par for the course.
You say you like me but you've known me about a week now? I mean I know some people move fast but pls. I enjoy dinner and ice skating.

I dunno if I'm allowed to PM you whilst we are playing

As long as its not related to the game (like two old friends catching up on personal lives) most mods don't have a problem with it.

Never saw Inferno, Gustavo, or Andrius before.

I haven't played mafia in roughly a year, save for the couples game that ended around this time last year. Chickadee was in that game.

Honestly, Elbirn, part of the general townread on you might be your 'could-care-less' attitude.

[Raskolnikov]

Andrius can you summarize your scumread on me in one or two sentences please.

[Raskolnikov]

I kinda just want to sheep MoI this game

[Raskolnikov]

Hitalt I'm wondering how specifically you come to the conclusion scum jumped on sky wagon with you if he's town

Can you explain exactly why and how exactly you'd learn from a sky lynch given afaik you said it's good even if that's the case?

Granted even if true 1 scum in a group of 3 people after a mislynch is still actually kind of awful (random is almost as good afaik) so I don't understand talking about it like it'd be potentially worth a mislynch to even get that information

[Raskolnikov]

ironically enough hitalt might potentially be partially a flub cw though

[Raskolnikov]

Taly if you have time, can you summarize the select few reads this game what you feel the most strongly about in one post with an under 200 word count and no quotes. It would help me a lot, I have ADHD or something.

[Raskolnikov]

Flub what you think about hitalt here and the wagons being you vs him?
Dramonic how do you read taly's catchup?

[Flubbernugget]

Catch up tomorrow

[Raskolnikov]

WRT the worst / hitalt their game (sharing) does back up why duck would respect hitalt, he lockscummed him super early on. dont see this kind of reaction-style bait play there though it seems more just straight up metaing and tonal
interestingly hitalt hasn't made a hard judgment on duck yet though but seems to scumread him via association?

Hitalt can you explain specifically why sky is probably scum btw?
Also maybe more on dramonic overall now though I did get you said you scumread 110

[Raskolnikov]

I think hitalt is probably a bad lynch at least d1
I'd even let him pick lynch if he makes a solid case, at worst he would ideally be checked if possible rather than lynched

[Raskolnikov]

@HWS can you go into your scumreads? Also what's your take on flubber wagon?

[Inferno390]

Rask, next time you link a game like that, make sure you mention that it’s specifically an ISO. I literally started reading the game and was like “huh, this was a short game, only 3 pages long,” and “huh, this seems like a pretty long 1v1 early for TW and HitAlt.”

So for the sake of all the stupid people, make it clear it’s an ISO.

[the worst]

BTW Profii always sounds scummy early on which is why I've found it very productive to torment him early game and see if he spews himself.

he's been evasive here but otherwise fairly coherent? either his scumgames improved or he's town, putting it at like ~65% likely atm

[HitAlt]

It gives you reason to vote for someone (me) who you described as potential lynchbait.

I'd like to clarify, that I had you pinned as a scumread, but also think that it's hard to discern a lynchbaity townplayer from scum with a limited amount of posts and flips (=every D1 ever).

By calling it a honeypot it seems like you're trying to preemptively distance yourself from any criticisms of voting for lynchbait. If I were to be lynched and flip town then you say (in 654) that you have three early wagoners (brass, t_w and ausuka) to examine after the honeypot.

This is almost "correct", but realize that

I know

I am only excluded from the suspect-pool

to myself

. (because of my own PoV obviously)
If you were to flip town, I'd obviously accept the blame from others as well, but I am fine with that too.
I can towntell hard when it matters the most for town.
And none of that changes the fact that IF you were to flip town indeed, the aforementioned three players are very likely to include some scum (as their jump on the wagon fits scum-opportunism well)

The thing is, if you're scum, you could easily tell your partners to not vote for me after your initial vote and catch some more potential mislynches for later through your "honeypot." This whole thing seems like a really convenient way for you to line up multiple mislynches through easily fakeable VCA's later in the game.

This is actually an impressive thought-process, and awards you some small amount of townpoints!
Not because it has any connection with reality, but because such a thought seems to be at least "outside of the box".

Yeah. I totally got that you don't want my lynch D1.

I don't like that.

For someone that likes point that there's scum within multiple pools or groups of people,

you definitely don't try to resolve your scumreads and you shelving me leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

No, not true.
I want SkyGazer lynched today, and if you keep providing good posts, your time will only come later or never.
Simple as that.

[the worst]

Hit, what do you make of the fact Sky is green af?

[HitAlt]

WRT the worst / hitalt their game (sharing) does back up why duck would respect hitalt, he lockscummed him super early on. dont see this kind of reaction-style bait play there though it seems more just straight up metaing and tonal

interestingly hitalt hasn't made a hard judgment on duck yet though but seems to scumread him via association?

So far duck hasn't given any obvious meta-tells to me, and therefore I'm worried they are coasting because they are afraid of slipping (again).
So no hard judgement yet, but if I make it to D2/D3, I should be able to accurately sort them. (or they are REALLY coasting)

Hitalt can you explain specifically why sky is probably scum btw?

Also maybe more on dramonic overall now though I did get you said you scumread 110

I actually explained this somewhat later by saying:

A very stock answer/quote thrown in an attempt to look townie.
Such a basic thing to ask "then why aren't you voting?"
But it reveals, in fact, that dramonic didn't really read what was said, and went for the appearances instead.

[HitAlt]

BTW Profii always sounds scummy early on which is why I've found it very productive to torment him early game and see if he spews himself.

he's been evasive here but otherwise fairly coherent? either his scumgames improved or he's town, putting it at like ~65% likely atm

This puts my thoughts on profii very well to words.
profii AND duck moving up on the reads.

[HitAlt]

Hit, what do you make of the fact Sky is green af?

They new?
Wet behind the ears?

Might

explain being lynchbaity, but doesn't give a free pass for anything/everything.

Or are you trying to tell me you have a solid townread on them?

[the worst]

Hit, what do you make of the fact Sky is green af?

They new?
Wet behind the ears?

Might

explain being lynchbaity, but doesn't give a free pass for anything/everything.

Or are you trying to tell me you have a solid townread on them?

Nah just a Hanlon's razor moment. a lot of their sketchy elusive posting can easily be attributed to greenness and discomfort before scumminess.

I suspect they're not really leaving the lynchpool unless they go bleeding heart town though.

[Raskolnikov]

ATM I think there's two very different games here depending on if flub is scum or town. Ideally sort him either way first though I'd rather do so first hand, vote on dave feels like a really big stretch with how he built up a very specific expectation for what davesz should've done there, and post to chickadee reads more pushing technicalities than a thought

From what I've read so far I'm not townreading any of Taly, HWS, xyzzy or chickadee (though her read on flub isn't SonS) here for what it's worth

Sky and andrius notably seemed to scumread flubber but joined the hitalt wagon which I'd want expanded on a bit. hitalt negative association with both plus to TW probably safe to call FTR
which reminds me TW I'm curious if you could go into your flub read a bit