Ircher's micro normal review, July 2018


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Ircher's micro normal review, July 2018

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:28 am

Post by implosion »

FINAL SETUP:
Town Loud Cop
Town Loud Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker
Mafia Multitasking Motion Detector
Original setup:
Ircher wrote:
Role List:

1. Town Mason
2. Town Informed Mason (Is informed that there is at least one neighborhood in this game)
3. Vanilla Townie
4. Vanilla Townie
5. Vanilla Townie
6. Vanilla Townie
7. Vanilla Townie
8. Mafia Neighbor A
9. Mafia Neighbor A

Other Info:

1. All threads have daytalk.
2. Yes, the mafia are neighbors with each other.
Last edited by implosion on Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:31 am

Post by implosion »

Primary reviewer: callforjudgement
Secondary reviewer: Something_Smart
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:38 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I'm very skeptical that this idea would work.

I doubt many towns would even consider lynching the other neighbor after the first one flipped mafia.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:49 am

Post by Ircher »

That is generally true... Do you think that this idea would ever work (in a micro)?
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:53 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I think we MIGHT be able to get it to work if we added a town neighbor.

The issue is that the balance of this game is swung very strongly by the way that it defies expectations, but it's almost impossible to predict how much of an impact people's expectations will have on the game because that varies so much from player to player.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:56 am

Post by Ircher »

I might do something else in that case... What about the massclaim scenario? Certainly that would raise some eyebrows.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:08 pm

Post by implosion »

In a remarkable coincidence, I was actually in a game with this quirk in 2011: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17666
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:08 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

Why would that raise some eyebrows? Of course the scum are going to claim neighbors with each other.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:36 pm

Post by Ircher »

From a setup-speccing/balance perspective:

Two Masons + Two Neighbors, seems like something weird may be up. Plus, the masons know the neighborhood exists...
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:48 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

As a player, I wouldn't really find that weird at all; it would all make sense with the point of the game just being a large number of PT's. I might suspect that one of the neighbors is scum, but I don't think I would ever suspect that they both were.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:52 pm

Post by Ircher »

Town Neighbor A
Town Neighbor A Friendly Neighbor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
Mafia Neighbor B
Mafia Neighbor B

Do you think this would work out worse or better than the originally proposed setup?
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:32 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

The second setup is scumsided even without the scum neighbours.

As for the original setup, I don't think it's possible to balance it because it depends too strongly on players outguessing the mod. I had players very upset at me once for putting a Mafia Neighbouriser into a game, as they were under the impression (for whatever reason) that Neighbourisers were automatically confirmed town. If players think that when there's no theory reason to do so, it's very highly likely that they'll think a Neighbour pair won't be all-scum when there
is
a theory reason to do that. (And Mason-pair, Neighbour-pair isn't implausible as a setup with town/town or town/scum neighbours; it's probably slightly townsided but not by so much it wouldn't be approved if that's what the mod wanted.)

Or to think about it another way: a sizeable minority of players would likely consider this setup to be bastard (even though it isn't by the site's definition), and that's not the sort of thing players are likely to be looking for in Normals.

I'd recommend you do one of the following:
  • Throw out the setup and run an entirely different setup (we have pregenerated setups available, including at Micro size);
  • Run this setup modified in a way that balances it, at the cost of missing the point behind the setup (changing a VT to a Town Neighbour and a Mafia Neighbour to a Mafia Rolecop would work, for example);
  • Add a couple of mechanics that don't really change how the game works and just serve to obfuscate things (e.g. an ability to screw with deadlines), then run it as a bastard Theme (this is likely to be the only way to make your original idea work as is). You might need to add a bit more town power to balance that, if the setup's going to be balanced against the player's mod-outguessing skills.
scum
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:12 am

Post by Ircher »

The idea with the second setup, which I understood to be scumsided without the scum neighbors, was that come massclaim, people would Lynch in the pool of 4 (well, 3) neighbors and keep doing so until they lost or two mafia flipped.

But that’s okay; I’ll think of something else....
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:29 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I don't see why town would assume both scum were in the neighbors, though.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:38 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I think town would likely guess that there was one scum in the neighbours, but think zero scum to be a reasonable possibility and two scum to only be a possibility if they're in different neighbourhoods.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:41 am

Post by Ircher »

I’ll go with something simple:

Town Cop
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
Mafia Multitasking Novice Roleblocker
Mafia Multitasking Goon
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:47 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I don't think "multitasking" does anything on a player with only one active ability, so you should remove that. (Leave it on the Roleblocker, obviously.)

The setup's almost certainly townsided (statistics show that Cop/Doc/RB as a 9p variable-open is townsided and this is more townsided than that; making the setup fully Closed doesn't make a huge difference to win rates given that most scum are fairly uncreative with their fakeclaims). I think it might actually be too townsided to run (imagine what happens if the Cop gets run up D1 and claims).

I'd say that to balance the setup, scum need something that lets them deal with early claims. My suggestion is to make the Goon into an N1 Strongman, although there are probably other solutions that would work.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:00 am

Post by Ircher »

Town Loud Cop
Town Loud Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
Mafia Multitasking Novice Roleblocker
Mafia Multitasking Novice Motion Detector
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:01 am

Post by Ircher »

Eh, I could remove the novice modifiers as well.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:33 am

Post by callforjudgement »

A Novice Motion Detector is only of very marginal use in a Micro, because there's usually a massclaim D3 (making the results, which are also first obtained D3, almost useless). So I'd suggest taking that out.

Making the Cop and Doctor Loud is probably not enough of a nerf to town by itself? The Doctor is unlikely to protect scum, and if the Cop scans scum, they're likely to claim the guilty. So scum are unlikely to learn much of use from it.

If you take the Novice off the Roleblocker, and replace the Motion Detector with a Goon (or non-Novice Motion Detector), the setup's likely within acceptable balance bounds.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:40 am

Post by Ircher »

Town Loud Cop
Town Loud Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker
Mafia Multitasking Motion Detector
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:35 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Yes, that should work.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:48 pm

Post by implosion »

To be sure, we're done here?
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:02 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Looks all right to me.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:27 pm

Post by Ircher »

So, as I noted in the micro queue, it turns out I probably don’t have enough time to run this setup myself.

That said, I think it would be a waste of time and effort just to let this go to nothing, so we could potentially use this as a pre-designed setup instead.
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