Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Nancy Drew 39]

Aright Reality, do you think there are two or three scum left in the game? And who is in your POE other than Shoshin?

[Reality Check]

I mean youre not really pushing her, while shes been deathtunneling you
It fits

this 100% fits my theory too

I think Shoshin was designed to reach the end of the game, which has very very interesting implications, one in particular fitting my theory perfectly and making the N2->D3 play make total sense.

[Reality Check]

well... "Shoshin was designed" -> "scum's plan was for Shoshin"

[Reality Check]

give me a reason why chick is town, nancy

When did I say she was town?

I have stated clear facts. Whem is claiming that he was townreading Reality at the time he targeted her due to their PT that started pregame but Wheme said that they had no PT due to underground but he said that all 3 underground peops: the worst, Sajj,

Reality

were scum. I didn’t pull any of this out of my ass. All of it was based on facts.

And she is completely ignoring this. Also why on earth do you vote with your scumread if you believe that they’re manipulating information?

In what world does it make any sense for Reality to sheep Shoshin in voting random, if she truly believes this?

do you understand what sheeping means, because you're showing that you don't

and also, Wheme and I had the PT at the start of the game up until we were sent to the underground, then N1 all the way to the present time

[Reality Check]

Read 2762 and tell me where it says "im voting random because im sheeping shoshin"

Independent scumreads are a thing
Bussing is a thing

@nancy

The poin is that if Reality believes that Shoshin is manipulating information and is pushing random, then Reality should not vote random with her.

I also see no evidence that Shoshin is busing random but Wheme could definitely have been bussing Chick.

what makes you think I shouldn't be voting random just because I think the only other person on the wagon is probably scum?

[Reality Check]

and in case it wasnt clear, it isnt specified who sarah was
Taly didnt know what player had her

wheme feels like usual wheme and nancy's points are crap like usual

and shosin feels like manipulative scum and her claim is also most likely fake given my slot was a partial bodyguard for two nights

Only if you were the protective who visited Nico. And based on your role, it doesn’t make sense that Taly/you would target anyone but Joral/CS. So if that’s the case than you can both be protectives.

ITS A PASSIVE ROLE

So Wisdom didn’t need to submit any NA. Okay but this still clears Shoshin as the.protective who visited NIco, doesn’t it?

it doesn't clear shit

nobody ever was under an illusion that anybody but Shoshin could have been the protective on Nico, just by what alignment that action came from

[Reality Check]

Had ank claimed the protective result when shoshin claimed the bg on her?

In the pt ank said there was a protective killing and communicative on nico

I’m pretty sure

we claimed killing + protective early on in the day, we just didn't out the third right away (but that a third existed and was very very likely town, yes)

[Reality Check]

I can see no good reason for scum!Shoshin to have protected Nico if she’s scum. Like Taly/Wisdom couldn’t have had any idea who Sarah was, how could Shoshin possible have known that Nico was a macho cop?

If you really think that Shoshin is scum here, then her using her NA on Nico makes absolutely no sense if she’s scum.

I'll be able to confirm this yes or no depending on what RC says to my questions towards him.

but

if I get the answers I'm expecting to get, then Shoshin's scum equity goes way up. Way. Up.

[Reality Check]

In the pt ank said there was a protective killing and communicative on nico

But she didn’t post it in the thread until AFTER Shoshin had already claimed. In fact she was hoping to drag it out until D5.

and both Wheme and myself are claiming that I told him the results before day four

unless you believe both of us are scum, this means that we got the information that we are claiming to have gotten.

In light of all this, her freak out over the possibility of Nico investigating her makes 0 sense now. She tried to stop Creature lynch by pushing Shoshin D2, had 0 problem with Angel lynch and is now pushing Shoshin lynch again- despite mechanical evidence that clears her? Why?

do I need to quote half my ISO again

Does it really matter what kind of protective doc/bg Shoshin is? In what world does scum!Shoshin protect the target she wants dead?

I've been saying it over and over again

as a gambit

[Reality Check]

In what world does scum!Shoshin protect the target she wants dead?

mastina did it in minuet, remember?

actually both of us just went with what we'd do as town

it just happened to have us shooting a target we were protecting at the same time

[Reality Check]

I want to lynch Shosh again for mechanical reasons but she just FEELS like town

did you forget my S O U L R E A D

[Nancy Drew 39]

give me a reason why chick is town, nancy

When did I say she was town?

I have stated clear facts. Whem is claiming that he was townreading Reality at the time he targeted her due to their PT that started pregame but Wheme said that they had no PT due to underground but he said that all 3 underground peops: the worst, Sajj,

Reality

were scum. I didn’t pull any of this out of my ass. All of it was based on facts.

And she is completely ignoring this. Also why on earth do you vote with your scumread if you believe that they’re manipulating information?

In what world does it make any sense for Reality to sheep Shoshin in voting random, if she truly believes this?

do you understand what sheeping means, because you're showing that you don't

and also, Wheme and I had the PT at the start of the game up until we were sent to the underground, then N1 all the way to the present time

I do understand what sheeping is and I found it that you would vote with her.

[Shoshin]

Okay, Nancy. I'll try to address the issues you have.

It’s not villagery of you to totally refuse to understand why CS felt the way that he did.

I understand how CS felt but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him.

I know you think it's bad that I didn't protect CS and I understand why you think that. But try looking at this from my perspective. I see my role a a trade-off between my value and the value of another player. I don't want to die in the place of another townie just for the sake of saving another townie over myself. I have to make value judgments about the value of any given player to the town's success.

I didn't want to use my role on N3 because I didn't trust any of the townies in the game over myself. You had mislynched Angel while defending Random, so I wasn't goinig to trade my life for yours. CS also led the mislynch on Angel, and I think I'm a much better townie than him, and I didn't think the value of having confirmed town outweighed.

Either way, I made a value judgment that has nothing to do with "totally refusing to understand why CS felt the way he did."

It’s not villagery of you to not ever question it your read on random could possibly be wrong.

I have questioned it. I've asked you (and others) many times to explain why he's town to help me see if I'm missing something. But you haven't given me any reasons to believe he's town. I've read Random's posts many times. I've read what others have said about him many times. And I'm very confident he's scum based on those readings and rereadings.

It’s not villagery of you to try to derail me when I was trying to sort Sajj.

I didn't derail your attempts to sort Sajj, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I said Sajj isn't mafia, and I'm fairly confident she isn't.

It’s not villagery to count out Chick as scum because you think she’s being a troll.

I never said this. What I said is that Chick is plausible scum with Random but with nothing close to the confidence I have in Random flipping scum.

Your REASONS for scumreading Wisdom aren’t villagery

I can't address this unless you tell me what isn't villagery about the reasoning.

and you’re scumreading the worst isn’t villagery because gamestatewise

Um, where did I say anything about the worst as scum via gamestate? I'm not even sure what that means.

To be clear, I expressed a scumread on the worst on D1 because he refused to answer why Sajj was town and continued refusing for basically the entire game. I agree that there's hints of town in his posts but there's also lots of hints of scum. As I've said, he came out on D2 with pressure on Random based on the Creature wagon but then randomly started townreading Random; that progression felt fake and made no sense from a townie who genuinely wanted to sort who the scum behind D1's no lynch. I dont' understand how the worst reads Random as town when his internal logic of sorting the no lynch points to Random as scummy.

That doesn't mean I'm saying the worst is lock scum, not even close. I'm saying there's a plausible case that he's partnered with Random. I know you disagree, but that doens't make my reasoning scummy.

It is also not villagery to scumread or townread people solely on the basis of whether they town/scumread you.

This is not what I've been doing.

I obviously don’t want to mislynch you (or anyone else for that matter) but you really haven’t given me any good reasons to defend you or care. If you are willing to take into account what I and other people have been telling you instead of scumreading everyone who is suspicious of you, I’d actually have something to work with. If your town, then by all means help me prove it but I’m bored of trying to defend a player who is deliberately going out of thei way to be their own worst enemy.

I haven't given you reasons to defend me or care? Okay. I'm here trying. That's reason enough to care. And it's actually insulting that you wouldn't care when I'm putting in a great deal of effort to address your concerns.

To be clear, I'm not doing the things you're saying I'm doing. I'm trying to take into account what others have said, and I'm not just scumreading anyone suspicious of me. Like, that's just not true.

I would appreciate it if you try to look at things from my perspective to understand why I started treating you more aggressively. I was upset that you weren't really talking with me about Random, I was upset that you mislynched Angel without even trying to understand why she could be town, and I was upset that you weren't even questioning your own play there but instead continued saying that you were right about mislynching Angel.

You say that I don't question my reads, right? Well, from my perspective, it feels like that's what you're doing. You decided the worst was town and never questioned it. You decided Random was town and never questioned it. You decided Angel was scum and never questioned it, even after she was mislynched.

To be fair, you're questioning your read on me. Okay, cool. You don't like that I'm approaching you more aggressively. But how about trying to understand why? As I explained before, I'm not happy with the direction of the game. We already had a bad result mislynching Angel, and I'm worried we're heading down the same path today.

I need you to start rethinking things and I don't know how to do that. Maybe it's not possible. Maybe this game is doomed. But as I said, I'm not trying to attack your intelligence, nor you as a person. I'm giving you criticism about your play because your play led to a bad result and I'm worried it will lead to another bad result today.

From my perspective, it's not pro-town to just let you continue thinking things that are wrong. So what am I supposed to do to change your mind? I tried different tactics, none of them worked. I tried being more aggressive, that doesn't work either, you just took it as an insult instead of as an indication that I'm frustrated at trying to communicate with you.

[Shoshin]

Btw I think Shoshin could be gambiting specifically because it's entirely possible she's a full doctor, we don't actually have any proof that she is a bodyguard.

Anything is possible. It's also irrelevant to making good decisions.

what does this even mean

It means anything is possible but the basis of decisions should be probabilities, not possibilities.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Read 2762 and tell me where it says "im voting random because im sheeping shoshin"

Independent scumreads are a thing
Bussing is a thing

@nancy

The poin is that if Reality believes that Shoshin is manipulating information and is pushing random, then Reality should not vote random with her.

I also see no evidence that Shoshin is busing random but Wheme could definitely have been bussing Chick.

what makes you think I shouldn't be voting random just because I think the only other person on the wagon is probably scum?

Well, I wouldn’t trust the vote of anyone I’m scumreading. So I probably stay off that wagon and it would definitely give me pause.

[Nancy Drew 39]

and in case it wasnt clear, it isnt specified who sarah was
Taly didnt know what player had her

wheme feels like usual wheme and nancy's points are crap like usual

and shosin feels like manipulative scum and her claim is also most likely fake given my slot was a partial bodyguard for two nights

Only if you were the protective who visited Nico. And based on your role, it doesn’t make sense that Taly/you would target anyone but Joral/CS. So if that’s the case than you can both be protectives.

ITS A PASSIVE ROLE

So Wisdom didn’t need to submit any NA. Okay but this still clears Shoshin as the.protective who visited NIco, doesn’t it?

it doesn't clear shit

nobody ever was under an illusion that anybody but Shoshin could have been the protective on Nico, just by what alignment that action came from

Okay, so this confuses me then because isn’t her protective action in direct opposition to killing Nico?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Had ank claimed the protective result when shoshin claimed the bg on her?

In the pt ank said there was a protective killing and communicative on nico

I’m pretty sure

we claimed killing + protective early on in the day, we just didn't out the third right away (but that a third existed and was very very likely town, yes)

Are you thinking random is town now?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I can see no good reason for scum!Shoshin to have protected Nico if she’s scum. Like Taly/Wisdom couldn’t have had any idea who Sarah was, how could Shoshin possible have known that Nico was a macho cop?

If you really think that Shoshin is scum here, then her using her NA on Nico makes absolutely no sense if she’s scum.

I'll be able to confirm this yes or no depending on what RC says to my questions towards him.

but

if I get the answers I'm expecting to get, then Shoshin's scum equity goes way up. Way. Up.

I hope so because she’s confusing the hell out of me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

In the pt ank said there was a protective killing and communicative on nico

But she didn’t post it in the thread until AFTER Shoshin had already claimed. In fact she was hoping to drag it out until D5.

and both Wheme and myself are claiming that I told him the results before day four

unless you believe both of us are scum, this means that we got the information that we are claiming to have gotten.

In light of all this, her freak out over the possibility of Nico investigating her makes 0 sense now. She tried to stop Creature lynch by pushing Shoshin D2, had 0 problem with Angel lynch and is now pushing Shoshin lynch again- despite mechanical evidence that clears her? Why?

do I need to quote half my ISO again

Does it really matter what kind of protective doc/bg Shoshin is? In what world does scum!Shoshin protect the target she wants dead?

I've been saying it over and over again

as a gambit

But if she used a protection on Nico then how could she possibly have know it wouldn’t work? You are suggesting that she protects Niko then tries to kill her? Wouldn’t that make it an entire waste of an NK?

[Shoshin]

I'm going to make a final case on Random and then I'm done. You guys do whatever you want after that, I'm too frustrated with what people are saying at this point to keep playing this.

The case on Creature:

On D1, he defends Creature while refusing to townread Creature (see e.g. D2 where he says he never townread Creature). When pressure builds on both Creature and Renais, he votes Renais over Creature. When Nancy expresses paranoia about TPF at end of D1, as the lynch appears to be heading towards Creature, Random switches his vote to TPF, preventing a lynch on Creature and all but assuring a no lynch. In short, Random effectively stopped any possibility of lynching Creature on D1. This is about as strong of an associative connection to Creature as you could have on D1.

On D2, when the worst questioned Random's behavior re: Creature, Random says he didn't vote Creature because Creature was "playing to his scum meta." This is scummy because that's the sort of observation that leads townies to scumread a player, not to defend them. Random's logic - that he didn't vote for Creature because scum Creature wouldn't play to his scum meta - is convoluted beyond belief and suggests that Random's behavior re: Creature has nothing to do with a genuine read on Creature and instead is about pushing a scum agenda (i.e. defending a partner, and/or securing a no lynch).

On D2, Random votes Nico at a point where it's already pretty clear that Nico's probably town, and then there's a sequence of unnatural hostility/aggression towards Nico, based entirely on Nico's playstyle rather than anything alignment indicative. The hostility is fake.

After D2, he's been actively lurking. He's not making any effort to move things in a pro-town direction.

His role isn't town or scum by itself, but there's evidence that he lied about how he used the role, which is scummy.

The nightkills pointed to Random. Nico voted Random on D2 and thought Random was scummier than Creature. Shepard expressed a strong scumread on Random on D2 in my Masquerade PM with him, and he listed Random as the scummiest player in the game after Angel on D3 (Angel flipped town, meaning his next scumread was Random). According to Shepard in our PM, Random is playing to his scum meta.

Finally, in terms of plausible teams, Random could be scum with any of the other players who could be scum here. Lynching him has been very difficult. Chick says he's scummy but not her top choice for lynch. Wisdom says he's scummy but wants to lynch Chick and/or me over Random. Wheme says he's scummy but wants to vote someone else. Reality votes him but then votes off him quickly. the worst suggested he was scummy on D2 when he pressured Random about the no lynch, but then magically starts townreading him later in the game, suggesting a plausible connection.

In short, everyone has distanced themselves from Random at some point in the game yet nobody actually wants to see him lynched. So, yeah, plausible connection with anyone else who could be scum in this game.

[Nancy Drew 39]

In what world does scum!Shoshin protect the target she wants dead?

mastina did it in minuet, remember?

actually both of us just went with what we'd do as town

it just happened to have us shooting a target we were protecting at the same time

Okay but there you jailkept Purr and Mastina tried to vig her. How was that a gambit?

You knew his vig action would fail?

But that wasn’t a gambit. So your theory is Shoshin is scumdoc who took a risk that her protective action would fail like it also would have on TBG. Ah I see but why even bother with doing that when guarantee a scum kill?

[Reality Check]

That's what's fucking up my solve. I really wanna powerlynch Shosh but her bg claim checks out.


pedit: n3 I keep saying this rtft

how does it check out, all we know is that I saw a protective on Nico night two and that Shoshin claimed it

everything else is unproven

[Reality Check]

I don't think so. He was really honest in the pt. Reality never posted in there which just doesn't seem like Anka if she'd been neighbourised

in no universe do I not post in a neighborhood I have access to unless I'm outright prohibited to

I have around 150 posts just in the one with Wheme

[Reality Check]

Does have a roleblocker?

Does have a roleblocker?

Scum

Yes

[Reality Check]

rule of thumb you should resolve as many abilities as possible unless abilities directly effect other abilities I guess

so even though he died there's no other ability which interrupted him ability from occurring so was alg



pedit: almost 100% no

Why’s that

night kils aren't consistent with scum having a roleblocker
Killing cop!Nico there wasn't right
killing CShep there wasn't right

They could have looked either down via RB, e.g. RB nico and shoot nd39 (who is posting more)

also don't seem to be any night actions missing. if anything there's some extra.

CShep dying makes perfect sense with a scum roleblocker

If Shoshin was town, then she would have been blocked.