Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Nancy Drew 39]

Okay, Nancy. I'll try to address the issues you have.

It’s not villagery of you to totally refuse to understand why CS felt the way that he did.

I understand how CS felt but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him.

I know you think it's bad that I didn't protect CS and I understand why you think that. But try looking at this from my perspective. I see my role a a trade-off between my value and the value of another player. I don't want to die in the place of another townie just for the sake of saving another townie over myself. I have to make value judgments about the value of any given player to the town's success.

I didn't want to use my role on N3 because I didn't trust any of the townies in the game over myself. You had mislynched Angel while defending Random, so I wasn't goinig to trade my life for yours. CS also led the mislynch on Angel, and I think I'm a much better townie than him, and I didn't think the value of having confirmed town outweighed.

Either way, I made a value judgment that has nothing to do with "totally refusing to understand why CS felt the way he did."

It’s not villagery of you to not ever question it your read on random could possibly be wrong.

I have questioned it. I've asked you (and others) many times to explain why he's town to help me see if I'm missing something. But you haven't given me any reasons to believe he's town. I've read Random's posts many times. I've read what others have said about him many times. And I'm very confident he's scum based on those readings and rereadings.

It’s not villagery of you to try to derail me when I was trying to sort Sajj.

I didn't derail your attempts to sort Sajj, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I said Sajj isn't mafia, and I'm fairly confident she isn't.

It’s not villagery to count out Chick as scum because you think she’s being a troll.

I never said this. What I said is that Chick is plausible scum with Random but with nothing close to the confidence I have in Random flipping scum.

Your REASONS for scumreading Wisdom aren’t villagery

I can't address this unless you tell me what isn't villagery about the reasoning.

and you’re scumreading the worst isn’t villagery because gamestatewise

Um, where did I say anything about the worst as scum via gamestate? I'm not even sure what that means.

To be clear, I expressed a scumread on the worst on D1 because he refused to answer why Sajj was town and continued refusing for basically the entire game. I agree that there's hints of town in his posts but there's also lots of hints of scum. As I've said, he came out on D2 with pressure on Random based on the Creature wagon but then randomly started townreading Random; that progression felt fake and made no sense from a townie who genuinely wanted to sort who the scum behind D1's no lynch. I dont' understand how the worst reads Random as town when his internal logic of sorting the no lynch points to Random as scummy.

That doesn't mean I'm saying the worst is lock scum, not even close. I'm saying there's a plausible case that he's partnered with Random. I know you disagree, but that doens't make my reasoning scummy.

It is also not villagery to scumread or townread people solely on the basis of whether they town/scumread you.

This is not what I've been doing.

I obviously don’t want to mislynch you (or anyone else for that matter) but you really haven’t given me any good reasons to defend you or care. If you are willing to take into account what I and other people have been telling you instead of scumreading everyone who is suspicious of you, I’d actually have something to work with. If your town, then by all means help me prove it but I’m bored of trying to defend a player who is deliberately going out of thei way to be their own worst enemy.

I haven't given you reasons to defend me or care? Okay. I'm here trying. That's reason enough to care. And it's actually insulting that you wouldn't care when I'm putting in a great deal of effort to address your concerns.

To be clear, I'm not doing the things you're saying I'm doing. I'm trying to take into account what others have said, and I'm not just scumreading anyone suspicious of me. Like, that's just not true.

I would appreciate it if you try to look at things from my perspective to understand why I started treating you more aggressively. I was upset that you weren't really talking with me about Random, I was upset that you mislynched Angel without even trying to understand why she could be town, and I was upset that you weren't even questioning your own play there but instead continued saying that you were right about mislynching Angel.

You say that I don't question my reads, right? Well, from my perspective, it feels like that's what you're doing. You decided the worst was town and never questioned it. You decided Random was town and never questioned it. You decided Angel was scum and never questioned it, even after she was mislynched.

To be fair, you're questioning your read on me. Okay, cool. You don't like that I'm approaching you more aggressively. But how about trying to understand why? As I explained before, I'm not happy with the direction of the game. We already had a bad result mislynching Angel, and I'm worried we're heading down the same path today.

I need you to start rethinking things and I don't know how to do that. Maybe it's not possible. Maybe this game is doomed. But as I said, I'm not trying to attack your intelligence, nor you as a person. I'm giving you criticism about your play because your play led to a bad result and I'm worried it will lead to another bad result today.

From my perspective, it's not pro-town to just let you continue thinking things that are wrong. So what am I supposed to do to change your mind? I tried different tactics, none of them worked. I tried being more aggressive, that doesn't work either, you just took it as an insult instead of as an indication that I'm frustrated at trying to communicate with you.

It frustrated me when you voted Wisdom

for the reasons you gave

and you talk so much about honesty, so why aren’t you seeing that the worst is being honest here?

I disagree with you about Angel. I agreed with CS that she was anti-town irrespective of alignment. She tried to. aggressively push Nico mislynch ffs and later the IC’s/mine.

You especially shouldn’t be scumreading the worst because we are the only ones who are really struggling with correctly reading you. You should realize that the worst is villagery based on that. But yeah agressioj, insults etc. have the exact opposite effect on me that’s intended.

I disagree with Wisdom and Reality because your tone does sound villagery to me. However, if there’s anything in your role that you haven’t yet shared, it would be good if you did. That’s why I think you could either be a 3P,or have some wonky role because I do get the impression that you are way too survivalist for some reason. Like your game somehow depends on you making it to the end and surviving LYLO. I think Wisdom is wrong because I don’t see how you and Chick are linked in any way.

[Reality Check]

Wisdom don't you know how I operate by now

meaning?

Kinda hinted at it by now but it was a reaction test

[Reality Check]

Why is chick town, shoshin?

I'll explain when you explain why the worst is town.

that's not how this works

[Reality Check]

VOTE: Wisdom

That read on the worst is bullshit.

A town replacement wouldn't take it for granted that the worst is town.

THIs

is why you’re voting him?

How do you know he didn’t base this on the wort’s ISO?

I don’t believe you believe this.

You think Wisdom comes into the game, reads the worst as town, but can't explain why? It's bullshit.

I can't explain 90% of my reads

Doesn't make them any less real or correct

[Reality Check]

the worst's "badtown" read on Reality on D1 didn't make any sense.

Didn't you say this too

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm going to make a final case on Random and then I'm done. You guys do whatever you want after that, I'm too frustrated with what people are saying at this point to keep playing this.

The case on Creature:

On D1, he defends Creature while refusing to townread Creature (see e.g. D2 where he says he never townread Creature). When pressure builds on both Creature and Renais, he votes Renais over Creature. When Nancy expresses paranoia about TPF at end of D1, as the lynch appears to be heading towards Creature, Random switches his vote to TPF, preventing a lynch on Creature and all but assuring a no lynch. In short, Random effectively stopped any possibility of lynching Creature on D1. This is about as strong of an associative connection to Creature as you could have on D1.

On D2, when the worst questioned Random's behavior re: Creature, Random says he didn't vote Creature because Creature was "playing to his scum meta." This is scummy because that's the sort of observation that leads townies to scumread a player, not to defend them. Random's logic - that he didn't vote for Creature because scum Creature wouldn't play to his scum meta - is convoluted beyond belief and suggests that Random's behavior re: Creature has nothing to do with a genuine read on Creature and instead is about pushing a scum agenda (i.e. defending a partner, and/or securing a no lynch).

On D2, Random votes Nico at a point where it's already pretty clear that Nico's probably town, and then there's a sequence of unnatural hostility/aggression towards Nico, based entirely on Nico's playstyle rather than anything alignment indicative. The hostility is fake.

After D2, he's been actively lurking. He's not making any effort to move things in a pro-town direction.

His role isn't town or scum by itself, but there's evidence that he lied about how he used the role, which is scummy.

The nightkills pointed to Random. Nico voted Random on D2 and thought Random was scummier than Creature. Shepard expressed a strong scumread on Random on D2 in my Masquerade PM with him, and he listed Random as the scummiest player in the game after Angel on D3 (Angel flipped town, meaning his next scumread was Random). According to Shepard in our PM, Random is playing to his scum meta.

Finally, in terms of plausible teams, Random could be scum with any of the other players who could be scum here. Lynching him has been very difficult. Chick says he's scummy but not her top choice for lynch. Wisdom says he's scummy but wants to lynch Chick and/or me over Random. Wheme says he's scummy but wants to vote someone else. Reality votes him but then votes off him quickly. the worst suggested he was scummy on D2 when he pressured Random about the no lynch, but then magically starts townreading him later in the game, suggesting a plausible connection.

In short, everyone has distanced themselves from Random at some point in the game yet nobody actually wants to see him lynched. So, yeah, plausible connection with anyone else who could be scum in this game.

While you do make som good points - re: the communicative action which he hasn’t responded to yet but I’m waiting on RC to sort that out.

You also make some errors. I didn’t express “paranoia” about TPF, I was convinced she was lockscum. I was the one who aggressively pushed the TPF wagon not random. He may have led it but he expressed a lot more hesitation than I did over voting her. Blaming him for the no lynch isn’t fair. In fact it was Reality who had the most opposition to it and Angel/Rennais were voting Nico and Nico didn’t vote but it was whomever was responsible for the underground or Jareth who has the lion’s share of the blame for this. So what we should be trying to do IMO, is figure out who is most likely to be Jareth. I’m fairly certain that it isn’t the worst, Sajj and obviously.not me.

If RC confirms that CS was indeed blocked and random refuses to answer why he visited Nico, than I will definitely give random another look.

[Nancy Drew 39]

UNVOTE: Whemestar

[Nancy Drew 39]

Shoshin claimed bg in their masquerade chat. This comment is addressed to Nico and is during d3 which makes me think he targeted Nico n2. If she ever visits the person who died she's confscum.

This paragraph confuses me

I never said this.

[WhemeStar]

Shoshin claimed bg in their masquerade chat. This comment is addressed to Nico and is during d3 which makes me think he targeted Nico n2. If she ever visits the person who died she's confscum.

This paragraph confuses me

I never said this.

Idk why it says you did

[Nancy Drew 39]

Shoshin claimed bg in their masquerade chat. This comment is addressed to Nico and is during d3 which makes me think he targeted Nico n2. If she ever visits the person who died she's confscum.

This paragraph confuses me

I never said this.

Idk why it says you did

I dunno, someone must have messed up their quotes.

[the worst]

rule of thumb you should resolve as many abilities as possible unless abilities directly effect other abilities I guess

so even though he died there's no other ability which interrupted him ability from occurring so was alg



pedit: almost 100% no

Why’s that

night kils aren't consistent with scum having a roleblocker
Killing cop!Nico there wasn't right
killing CShep there wasn't right

They could have looked either down via RB, e.g. RB nico and shoot nd39 (who is posting more)

also don't seem to be any night actions missing. if anything there's some extra.

CShep dying makes perfect sense with a scum roleblocker

If Shoshin was town, then she would have been blocked.

is this what you're checking?
I'd be surprised if a voyeur got that result if it was outright RB'd, that should resolve first?

[the worst]

Shoshin claimed bg in their masquerade chat. This comment is addressed to Nico and is during d3 which makes me think he targeted Nico n2. If she ever visits the person who died she's confscum.

This paragraph confuses me

I never said this.

Idk why it says you did

I dunno, someone must have messed up their quotes.

wheme quoted a section of your post which quoted my post, the Quote button bypasses quote tags and just attributes it to whoever the post belonged to

[Reality Check]

I'm talking the night that cshep died, night three

[RadiantCowbells]

This is a rmeinder to do a VC here before I go to bed.

[WhemeStar]

This is a rmeinder to do a VC here before I go to bed.

You wont

[Wisdom]

i dont follow
You think scum rb blocked nancy so she didnt jail cs and he showed up as communicative to you?

[Wisdom]

CShep dying makes perfect sense with a scum roleblocker

If Shoshin was town, then she would have been blocked.

?
Shoshin claimed she targeted nobody n3

[Reality Check]

but did scum know that during n3

[Wisdom]

Ah I see but why even bother with doing that when guarantee a scum kill?

For the same reason mastina and ank did it in Minuet
Ank jailed Purr while mastina shot Purr - mastina knew shes wasting a kill but she thought that would give her huge cred because she would claim she was blocked by scum

In the same way, shoshin would go "I am a doc, i protected nico" and she would be locktown forever

[Wisdom]

but did scum know that during n3

you mean that if they dont have a blocker they wouldn't shoot cshep because of protection fear?

[Wisdom]

idk, gif was flipped at that point, meaning they knew the jk is disabled
If shoshin is scum theyd assume theres no other protective, no?

[Wisdom]

or like, they also shot the outed cop without caring about protection
If they had a blocker, theyd block her and shoot elsewhere

[Reality Check]

idk, gif was flipped at that point, meaning they knew the jk is disabled
If shoshin is scum theyd assume theres no other protective, no?

did you read through day three? CShep basically outed Shoshin as a protective

I'm a certified fucking idiot with finding crumbs, yet I figured it out the moment he crumbed it

that means scum definitely noticed too

[RadiantCowbells]

ab

[RadiantCowbells]

cd