NY 213 - Game Over!

[JarJarDrinks]

Dat JJ/KK wagon on me. Much scum indeed.

So you believe that KK and I are both scum and decided to pile our votes on you when there was nobody else scumreading you because why ?

You are scum or a bad player.

[JarJarDrinks]

I’m playing like mislynch bait

What are u doing specifically that is mislynch bait?

[JarJarDrinks]

Also, JJ is letting KK Kubla Khan some more. They’re taking

I VLA'd. Your push is transparently fake.

[JarJarDrinks]

While we have different reads for a decent amount of people, we are overlapping a good deal. I’m ultra paranoid, and I understand why people are scum reading you, but I think I’m going to start defending you more. I think it was an all town neighborhood.

LAMIST

[JarJarDrinks]

I'm saying that you saying that you lynch more scum than town means people should listen to you more and I dislike that.

I'm not implying that has to do with me

I just mean that as a statement in general

Yes you are.

You acting like you lynch more scum than town so you should have more say in your reads is laughable and something

I don't see why town would need to say instead of explaining why I'm scum

[JarJarDrinks]

@KK - GET THAT VOTE BACK ON ME OR SO HELP ME! or so help me!

If you flip town, you need to be policy WOTM out of every game.

I mean, you know, been here for 4+ years, win the majority of my scum games, heard this multiple times, doesn’t stop me from solving games/fooling people as scum :shrug:

Hey android, does this bother you?

[JarJarDrinks]

@KK - GET THAT VOTE BACK ON ME OR SO HELP ME! or so help me!

If you flip town, you need to be policy WOTM out of every game.

I mean, you know, been here for 4+ years, win the majority of my scum games, heard this multiple times, doesn’t stop me from solving games/fooling people as scum :shrug:

I don't believe you. I can't believe you.

Look, this isn't real life. I can't look at your face for visual cues as to whether or not you're joking around or not. I have to read your words and either take them at face value or not. This is why the "Lynch all Liars" policy is the best policy. If everyone in the game is 100% truthful all the time, then town is more likely to win.

If you're town, you're more interested in winning a scum game in the future by setting a meta of being a liar now. That's shitty. It doesn't respect the time, energy, and frustration I'm putting into this game over the days and weeks. If you're scum, you've set the set bar low so that you can say or do whatever and town are fools for letting you get away with it.

You're so self-serving that you're Scrappy-Doo.

This is a town post. I retract my scum theater comment. Leaf vs KK is legit SvT.

[JarJarDrinks]

You’re just commenting without seeing how I actually do things, so anything you comment on my play will end up being moot.

I have my own style, it gets results. There are many games I end up being town leader in. To be fair, I’ve done some crazy shit as scum, and people know gat nothing is out of my scum range anymore so i have people constantly paranoid, but those same people will know that I can hard carry a game if I’m town. I prefer not to do that. I prefer if we as town can just work together. I’ll do what I can to ease it. I always do.

I’m even explaining everything clearly here. You assume my playstyle is a certain way just by assuming. I put a lot of analysis and thought into games, which is why i have to put some real sitdown time in.

And this is a scum post.

Furthermore it doesn't look AT ALL like someone talking to someone that they scumread. Leaf knows KK is town in this response.

[JarJarDrinks]

JarJarDrinks (5) - Andriod18 (2116), Flavor Leaf (2205), Dunnstral (2206), WhemeStar (2301), Lalendra (2334)

eh
why is this the lead wagon?

Cuz JJD is pulling an Unah, and made a completely political reads list on top of pushing a scum motivation, and then KK chainsaw defended, and then JJ chainsawed the chainsaw however tried to bus KK, but not enough to want to vote there. So the fake distance alongside the political reads and survivalistic nature, basically.

I guess this is the closest thing to a reason so lets address it.

My reads list is political and survivalistic because I put a bunch of the Lurkers as scumreads.

How dumb is that? Lurkers tend to not pay attention to the game and way more apt to OMGUS.

THIS IS EVIDENCED BY THE WAGON ON ME.

Like seriously dude. A political reads list woul have alot of nulls and would be sheeping town sentiment. The list I posted directly led to every shit lurker that I scumread sheeping your shit case on me.

Spoiler:

Dunnstral

- slight scumlean - He does seem to put his opinion out there which is good. But man he spent alot of time yesterday talking about how bad the people voting in the hood was. And I very much dislike 1969.

Flavor Leaf

- slight scumlean - dislike all the self meta. Keeps promising content. Where is it?

Lalendra

- scumlean. Not very much content in her posts. Quite a bit of posts that aren't really related to this game.

WhemeStar

- Scum - has literally not explained a single read in his crappy lurker ISO

Andriod18

- Scum - I think I've posted plenty why Android is scum. It's where my vote is going as of now so I'm sure I'll be expounding on this read through the day.[/quote]

JarJarDrinks(5)

~ Andriod18(8), Flavor Leaf(85), Dunnstral(16), WhemeStar(14), Lalendra(7)

How is that survivalistic ?

[JarJarDrinks]

Cuz JJD is pulling an Unah, and made a completely political reads list

on top of pushing a scum motivation

, and then KK chainsaw defended, and then JJ chainsawed the chainsaw however tried to bus KK, but not enough to want to vote there. So the fake distance alongside the political reads and survivalistic nature, basically.

quit with the vague bullshit. How am I "pushing a scum motivation" ??

[Ircher]

Day 2 VC #16

Creature (0) -
Kublai Khan (1) - Hopkirk (2346)
WhemeStar (0) -
Hopkirk (0) -
EspeciallyTheLies (0) -
JarJarDrinks (5) - Andriod18 (2116), Flavor Leaf (2205), Dunnstral (2206), WhemeStar (2301), Lalendra (2334)
Andriod18 (2) - Pine (1936), Wavemode (2331)
Texcat (1) - ArcAngel9 (2072)
ArcAngel9 (1) - Texcat (1987)
Vaxkiller (1) - Kublai Khan (2423)
Wavemode (0) -
PenguinPower (2) - EspeciallyTheLies (1996), Myloninja13 (2437)
Myloninja13 (4) - Creature (1941), PenguinPower (1947), Ausuka (2434), Vaxkiller (2472)
Scioness Sajj (1) - Golden Robster (2432)
Flavor Leaf (1) - JarJarDrinks (2327)
Not Voting (3) - Frozen Angel, Gamma Emerald, Scioness Sajj

Lynch Threshold

During day 2, it takes 12 votes to lynch a player.

Deadline

Day 2 ends on July 14, 2018 8:00 PM EDT (GMT-4:00) or in (expired on 2018-07-14 20:00:00).

Moderator Notes

Frozen Angel is V/LA until July 11.
If you have consistent weekend V/LA, you must remind me every weekend, or I will prod you. Alternatively, you can set V/LA tags each weekend.
If you notice any mistakes, please point them out. (That includes looking at the voting history.)

Spoiler: Current Voting History

Day 2

Dunnstral: Myloninja13 (1942) --> JarJarDrinks (2206)
Golden Robster: Hopkirk (2078) --> (Null) (2096) --> PenguinPower (2112) --> Scioness Sajj (2152) --> Vaxkiller (2171) --> (Null) (2288) --> Creature (2299) --> WhemeStar (2304) --> Wavemode (2367) --> Scioness Sajj (2432)
Pine: Andriod18 (1936)
Creature: Myloninja13 (1941)
Kublai Khan: Flavor Leaf (1944) --> (Null) (2366) --> Vaxkiller (2423)
WhemeStar: Vaxkiller (2245) --> JarJarDrinks (2301)
Hopkirk: Andriod18 (2197) --> Kublai Khan (2346)

Ausuka

: PenguinPower (1960) --> Myloninja13 (2434)
Lalendra: Vaxkiller (2184) --> JarJarDrinks (2334)
EspeciallyTheLies: PenguinPower (1996)
JarJarDrinks: Andriod18 (1945) --> EspeciallyTheLies (2041) --> (Null) (2066) --> Andriod18 (2192) --> Flavor Leaf (2327)
Andriod18: JarJarDrinks (2116)
Texcat: ArcAngel9 (1987)
ArcAngel9: Texcat (2072)
Vaxkiller: WhemeStar (2343) --> Myloninja13 (2472)
Wavemode: Texcat (2044) --> Andriod18 (2331)
PenguinPower: Myloninja13 (1947)
Myloninja13: PenguinPower (2437)
Flavor Leaf: JarJarDrinks (2205)

Spoiler: Previous Voting History

Day 1

Note: * = Hammer Vote

Note: ^ = Vote after hammer vote.

Dunnstral (5):

Osuka

(77) --> Texcat (1388) --> Lalendra (1623) -->

Osuka

(1758) -->

Performer

(1782)

Srceenplay

(0): (Null)

Performer

(5):

Osuka

(623) --> TheRampage (909) --> Wavemode (1051) --> Andriod18 (1765) -->

Performer

(1849)*

Joral

(0): (Null)

Almost50

(8): Hopkirk (97) --> Edosurist (226) -->

Osuka

(390) -->

Ausuka

(1205) --> (Null) (1304) --> Vaxkiller (1352) --> (Null) (1380) --> Andriod18 (1460)
Fumuki (0): (Null)
Golden Robster (13):

Almost50

(177) --> Wavemode (183) -->

Osuka

(236) -->

Ausuka (317)

--> JarJarDrinks (319) --> (Null) (546) --> Vaxkiller (602) --> (Null) (1504) --> Wavemode (1588) --> (Null) (1589) --> ArcAngel9 (1770) --> Andriod18 (1784) --> [[ost=1798](Null) (1798)[/post]
Pine (2):

Osuka

(176) --> Andriod18 (1835)
Creature (6):

Performer

(385) --> Myloninja13 (720) --> TheRampage (813) -->

Performer

(898) --> Andriod18 (1449) -->

Performer

(1846)
Kublai Khan (6):

Osuka

(76) -->

Almost50

(122) --> Scioness Sajj (388) --> JarJarDrinks (536) -->

Osuka

(725) -->

Performer

(957)
WhemeStar (3): Lalendra (234) --> JarJarDrinks (797) --> Flavor Leaf (955)
Hopkirk (9):

Osuka

(90) --> Lalendra (279) -->

Osuka

(696) --> (Null) (993) --> Wavemode (999) -->

Performer

(1273) --> (Null) (1315) -->

Performer

(1458) --> Andriod18 (1679)
Edosurist (2): Texcat (84) -->

Almost50

(222)
Gamma Emerald (3): Vaxkiller (710) --> Wavemode (1107) --> Andriod18 (1711) --> _{(Null) (1889)^}

Ausuka

(9): JarJarDrinks (89) --> Creature (104) --> Myloninja13 (429) --> (Null) (742) --> TheRampage (743) --> Wavemode (998) -->

Performer

(1604) --> Lalendra (1624) --> Andriod18 (1680)
Lalendra (3):

Almost50

(209) --> (Null) (559) -->

Performer

(1229)
EspeciallyTheLies (2):

Almost50

(83) -->

Performer

(515)
Lovebird (1): Edosurist (259)
Davesaz (1): Wavemode (1014)
Frozen Angel (3):

Performer

(1579) --> (Null) (1606) -->

Performer

(1814)
JarJarDrinks (8):

Osuka

(85) -->

Almost50

(114) --> Charles510 (186) --> Edosurist (231) -->

Osuka

(535) -->

Ausuka

(842) --> Wavemode (1112) --> Andriod18 (1410)

Osuka

(10): Wavemode (80) --> JarJarDrinks (124) --> ArcAngel9 (229) --> Pine (332) --> JarJarDrinks (353) -->

Performer

(769) --> TheRampage (771) -->

Performer

(1047) --> Vaxkiller (1359) -->

Performer

(1384)
Texcat (4):

Osuka

(79) --> Wavemode (1080) -->

Osuka

(1703) --> Andriod18 (1777)
Andriod18 (4): Kublai Khan (190) --> Lovebird (290) --> JarJarDrinks (855) -->

Performer

(1796)
ArcAngel9 (4): Texcat (81) --> TheRampage (223) --> Texcat (604) -->

Performer

(1397)
Charles510 (2): JarJarDrinks (87) --> (Null) (310)
Vaxkiller (8): JarJarDrinks (363) --> Scioness Sajj (389) --> Andriod18 (437) --> JarJarDrinks (532) --> Golden Robster (678) --> Wavemode (1078) --> TheRampage (1085) -->

Performer

(1116)
Wavemode (5): Texcat (82) --> Charles510 (131) --> (Null) (838) -->

Osuka

(867) -->

Performer

(1108)
TheRampage (3): Creature (100) --> (Null) (509) -->

Osuka

(681)
PenguinPower (1):

Performer

(1774)
Myloninja13 (4): Edosurist (233) --> JarJarDrinks (326) -->

Performer

(1554) --> Andriod18 (1787)
Scioness Sajj (4):

Ausuka

(406) --> (Null) (1325) -->

Performer

(1552) --> Andriod18 (1760)
Flavor Leaf (1): Andriod18 (1772)

Pre-Game

Dunnstral (2): Texcat (9) --> Pine (43)

Srceenplay

(1): Andriod18 (62)
Pine (1):

Osuka

(16)
Kublai Khan (1): Pine (34)
Hopkirk (1):

Osuka

(66)
Edosurist (1): Pine (42)

Osuka

(2): Pine (28) --> Wavemode (33)
Texcat (1): Pine (44)
Wavemode (1):

Osuka

(31)

[Ircher]

TehBrawlGuy replaces ArcAngel9.

[JarJarDrinks]

Since you decided to self meta mofo:

Also, JJ is letting KK Kubla Khan some more. They’re taking turns.

Classic scum buddy move

.

Here are examples of flavor leaf thinking things are "classic mafia" in other games:

Spoiler:

Mini Normal 1996 Post #2154
Flavor Leaf,

Mafia 1-Shot Ninja

, lynched Day 4

I feel this is a classic “doesn’t matter if you know I’m scum if you can’t get me lynched” scenario.

Mini Normal 1980 Post #1138
Flavor Leaf,

Mafia Neighbor

, lynched Day 2

Like the bus a buddy, vote a townie, classic maneuver is the epitome of bussing and preventing a lynch.

Have you ever thought someone was classic scum when you were town bro?

[Gamma Emerald]

Kublai’s engagement feels kind of false. Summary of interactions/mentions of everyone in the game:

Dunn- Townreads based on Dunn pointing out when Android last posted. Doesn’t address the townread again.

Robster- asks a couple of light questions without followup and agrees we probably shouldn’t lynch in the neighbourhood (post Ausuka claim).

Pine- Mentions Pine is active lurking about 6ish times. Doesn’t press Pine on this (like he does Scion). Townreads anyway.

Creature- A bit of doubt over the Creature meta tells. No direct conversation.

Wheme- Doesn’t really mention.

Hopkirk- Excluding this one as it’s me.

Edo/Gamma- doesn’t engage with or even mention respectively.

Ausuka- Scumreads pretty explicitly for most of the game.

Lalendra- Asks two people about their reads on the slot as part of a list of several people he’s asking about.

ETL- No engagement.

Love/Dave/FA- Minor push, doesn’t mention, doesn’t mention.

JarJar- Votes and pushes a bit D1. Isn’t voting him now/slight defence of JJ on push against him.

Android- Mentions once saying people shouldn’t complain about Android/Wave with FL around.

Tex- Townreads. Idk where.

Arc- Includes in one list of active lurkers but not another (the Android/Wave/FL post). Doesn’t really push/mention).

Vax- Doesn’t really mention. Currently voting.

Wave- Defends a lot.

The Rampage- Not sure of KK’s read.

Mylo- Mentions as a lurker a few times.

Scion- Votes and says it was to push Scion. Does not attempt to push other lurkers in the same way. Barely mentions most of the lurkers. One of the things that feels contradictory.

Flavour Leaf- Pushes a lot harder than most lurkers for basically the same thing. Want to lynch FL/calls him a bad player, largely ignores most people who aren’t contributing.

2402 attacking FL is pretty bad in this respect. Tries to discredit FL by saying about FL ‘Where's you reads on the game? Your promised analysis? You've had no comment on Pine all game? Lalendra? Myloninja13?’ which also applies to KK. Hypocritical.

Does not ask the same question to Arc, Android, Mylo etc.

(Dead town)

Almost50- Pushes a bit early on. Mostly abandons/doesn’t follow up (arguably when it became clear people townread A50)

Ousuka- Pushes hard.

Performer- Pushes hard.


Summary: Feels like he’s not actually looking to solve the game and feels kind of self-contradictory. Not engaging deeply. Not following up on stuff. Unclear reads/doesn’t really feel like he’s trying to solve. Feels especially inconsistent in regard to lurkers.

Doesn’t help that his main five pushes are the three dead townies, the IC, and a push on FL that doesn’t fit how KK interacts with other non-contributors. Also doesn’t help he ignores/defends Android/Wave (who I scumread) while pushing every other wagon that happened yesterday.

Note- decided to go through this fully and see what results I got since I noticed earlier he doesn't mention Android, defends Wave, attacks Ousuka/Performer/Ausuka.

VOTE: Kublai Khan
I think this is a good case, and think that the points brought up are valid points.

[wavemode]

bad case. most of it is oversimplification and ignoring nuance. I don't see anything there that's scum indicative, especially if you juxtapose kk's supposedly shallow engagement with that of a number of other players who are much worse. I still townread Kublai

[JarJarDrinks]

2394 just looks so legit frustrated town

[Hopkirk]

@KK - GET THAT VOTE BACK ON ME OR SO HELP ME! or so help me!

If you flip town, you need to be policy WOTM out of every game.

I mean, you know, been here for 4+ years, win the majority of my scum games, heard this multiple times, doesn’t stop me from solving games/fooling people as scum :shrug:

I don't believe you. I can't believe you.

Look, this isn't real life. I can't look at your face for visual cues as to whether or not you're joking around or not. I have to read your words and either take them at face value or not. This is why the "Lynch all Liars" policy is the best policy. If everyone in the game is 100% truthful all the time, then town is more likely to win.

If you're town, you're more interested in winning a scum game in the future by setting a meta of being a liar now. That's shitty. It doesn't respect the time, energy, and frustration I'm putting into this game over the days and weeks. If you're scum, you've set the set bar low so that you can say or do whatever and town are fools for letting you get away with it.

You're so self-serving that you're Scrappy-Doo.

This is a town post. I retract my scum theater comment. Leaf vs KK is legit SvT.

Is it town because he sounds like he believes what he's saying tonewise, or because you think town is more likely to rant about anti-town play?
There's a follow up to this.

[JarJarDrinks]

Is it town because he sounds like he believes what he's saying tonewise, or because you think town is more likely to rant about anti-town play?

The former. I think it's legit frustration.

[Hopkirk]

Ok, that's what I thought you were saying but I wanted to make sure.

Follow up:

I decided to look through KK's previous games for things like 'shitty', 'anti-town', and similar stuff (fun fact, 2.4% of his posts contain the word shitty and 7.4% contain the word shit).
I came across this. If I counted right, this is from the game before his previous game.
Two posts in particular stood out. One is quoted, one is linked. The linked one is more important to read.

Sure, I acknowledge that. But you took a shitty vow to uphold your shitty meta of not posting complex thoughts in a game where it's helpful for your follow players to understand the motivations behind your actions. So based on what you did post and what you didn't post, you are most likely to be scum.

(https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 4#p9879544).

Compare these to
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10299781
and
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10300200

These strongly resemble his attack on Wisdom in that game.
Khan was town in that game for reference.

If Khan's town, it's legit because he feels that way and we have proof he feels that way.
If Khan's town, he can easily fake it looking legit because:

1.) he legitimately feels that way about town who play like he sees FL playing as. Therefore, given we're accepting scum will also rant about this kind of thing, what he's saying is going to sound legit from either alignment as he's making legit complaints that he actually believes are true. Whether he's scum or not doesn't really matter there since he should still be able to make the arguments if he's thought about it, and doesn't like it.

2.)

He's made the same argument before in a similar layout, tone, and using very similar words/phrasing

(some of the points are very similar too). This is probably also pretty fresh in his memory, and was sucessful in getting the person he was attacking lynched. If he's scum, he definitely knows how to make it look legit because he's made basically the same post and attack before.

Also, I assume you accept scum is as likely to complain about bad play as town. I don't have any stats or anything here, but based on experience I wouldn't say one stands out as super more likely. If anyone has stuff here it'd be interesting to read about. Hence, the act of ranting doesn't make it town, the metric we're looking at is how legit it looks/reads as.

TLDR- if he's town it's legit because it's legit. If it's scum, he can definitely fake it looking legit. I'm not saying it comes from scum, I'm saying it could come from scum or town so isn't a town tell at all.

[Hopkirk]

1 is enough for it to become NAI. 2 makes it definitely NAI and a little concerning (though not enough to form a read based on it).

[Hopkirk]

@JJD: why do you think Kublai interacts with FL that way, but mostly ignores other lurkers?

[JarJarDrinks]

because FL is interacting with him I suppose.

[Hopkirk]

bad case. most of it is oversimplification and ignoring nuance. I don't see anything there that's scum indicative, especially if you juxtapose kk's supposedly shallow engagement with that of a number of other players who are much worse. I still townread Kublai

'Other people are engaging less' is pretty much textbook 'whataboutism' to detract from actually looking at an issue ('X is bad', 'Y is worse than X' doesn't mean X isn't concerning). Of course I'm also taking issue with how he's engaging/who he's engaging with- and maybe moreso, who he isn't engaging with. The critique isn't that he's not posting content, it's how he's posting and what he's not posting.

Do you feel like he was buddying you at all when he went hard against Ausuka/Performer while defending you when you were a leading dual wagon?
Do you think he's consistent in how he engages across the game?

[Flavor Leaf]

Since you decided to self meta mofo:

Also, JJ is letting KK Kubla Khan some more. They’re taking turns.

Classic scum buddy move

.

Here are examples of flavor leaf thinking things are "classic mafia" in other games:

Spoiler:

Mini Normal 1996 Post #2154
Flavor Leaf,

Mafia 1-Shot Ninja

, lynched Day 4

I feel this is a classic “doesn’t matter if you know I’m scum if you can’t get me lynched” scenario.

Mini Normal 1980 Post #1138
Flavor Leaf,

Mafia Neighbor

, lynched Day 2

Like the bus a buddy, vote a townie, classic maneuver is the epitome of bussing and preventing a lynch.

Have you ever thought someone was classic scum when you were town bro?

Yep.

[Flavor Leaf]

Good work, though JJD.

Enough for me to move my vote. I like the fire. Keep it up.

VOTE: Kubla Khan