NY 213 - Game Over!

[Flavor Leaf]

@Wave - I don’t think it’s a bad case; i just think it’s incorrect. It was actually a rather good case, better if he was scum, however I think the mindset and agenda behind it is coming from annoyed town.

[Flavor Leaf]

bad case. most of it is oversimplification and ignoring nuance. I don't see anything there that's scum indicative, especially if you juxtapose kk's supposedly shallow engagement with that of a number of other players who are much worse. I still townread Kublai

Oh, this was referring to Hopkirk, wasn’t it? Hopkirk has a good case.

I was referring to JJD’s posts.

[Hopkirk]

because FL is interacting with him I suppose.

Going over mentions/timings/when interactions began.

FL

2209- first time Flavour mentions Kublai in a game related way. Scumread/interaction comes a little later.

KK

779- mentions FL has 4 votes and 2 reads.

1204- asks FL why he hasn’t voted yet.

1347- Includes FL in a list of lurkers.

1545- Specifically says FL is the best vig shot.

1728- Says if we want to lynch someone useless, we should definitely lynch Flavour.

Note- no comment on Android here along with a six-person Android wagon is concerning, especially given I independently scumread Android. Plus, as I’ve said, KK hasn’t even mentioned Android. If he wants to lynch someone useless then why isn’t he on the Android wagon?

1741- Says FL is worse than other ‘I’m going to lurk D1’ people (Pine, Creature, ETL) as they’ve provided content. What about Android, Mylo, Scion, Arc, who’ve provided similar amounts? No mentions here.

Like, I don't know why people are whining about Android18 or wavemode or whoever else with Flavor Leaf around.

1742- Worth quoting. Defends Android/Wave saying FL is worse (hasn’t tried to start a FL wagon oddly).

1944- Votes FL here after four days of shading.

2217/8- starts engaging with Flavour directly here. Asks FL questions/responds to responses.

Conclusions

-I feel this shows pretty clearly that ‘because FL is interacting with him I suppose.’ Doesn’t explain why KK treated FL differently to lurkers given 1545/1741/1742 an such before they actually started interacting. He specifically calls FL out as the worse, feeling oddly different to Arc, Android, etc.

-KK only actually starts reallu directly engaging with flavour (asking stuff) after FL votes KK. Before that he’s talking about FL.

[Lalendra]

Those are good points. I'm not sure what to make of the language and attitude in KK's posts - as you said, it is his town meta, but would be easy to fake - but the fact that KK ignored the Android wagon is very troubling to me.

As a matter of fact, I also would like to see more from Android.

VOTE: Andriod18

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

I still feel like this is scum!FL and I like jarjar's posting the most out of everyone I think.

[Ircher]

Day 2 VC #17

Creature (0) -
Kublai Khan (3) - Hopkirk (2346), Gamma Emerald (2488), Flavor Leaf (2499)
WhemeStar (0) -
Hopkirk (0) -
EspeciallyTheLies (0) -
JarJarDrinks (3) - Andriod18 (2116), Dunnstral (2206), WhemeStar (2301)
Andriod18 (3) - Pine (1936), Wavemode (2331), Lalendra (2503)
Texcat (1) -

ArcAngel9

TehBrawlGuy (2072)

ArcAngel9

TehBrawlGuy (1) (1 / 0) - Texcat (1987)
Vaxkiller (1) - Kublai Khan (2423)
Wavemode (0) -
PenguinPower (2) - EspeciallyTheLies (1996), Myloninja13 (2437)
Myloninja13 (3) - Creature (1941), PenguinPower (1947), Vaxkiller (2472)
Scioness Sajj (1) - Golden Robster (2432)
Flavor Leaf (2) - JarJarDrinks (2327), Ausuka (2504)
Not Voting (2) - Frozen Angel, Scioness Sajj

Lynch Threshold

During day 2, it takes 12 votes to lynch a player.

Deadline

Day 2 ends on July 14, 2018 8:00 PM EDT (GMT-4:00) or in (expired on 2018-07-14 20:00:00).

Moderator Notes

Frozen Angel is V/LA until July 11.
If you have consistent weekend V/LA, you must remind me every weekend, or I will prod you. Alternatively, you can set V/LA tags each weekend.
If you notice any mistakes, please point them out. (That includes looking at the voting history.)

Spoiler: Current Voting History

Day 2

Dunnstral: Myloninja13 (1942) --> JarJarDrinks (2206)
Golden Robster: Hopkirk (2078) --> (Null) (2096) --> PenguinPower (2112) --> Scioness Sajj (2152) --> Vaxkiller (2171) --> (Null) (2288) --> Creature (2299) --> WhemeStar (2304) --> Wavemode (2367) --> Scioness Sajj (2432)
Pine: Andriod18 (1936)
Creature: Myloninja13 (1941)
Kublai Khan: Flavor Leaf (1944) --> (Null) (2366) --> Vaxkiller (2423)
WhemeStar: Vaxkiller (2245) --> JarJarDrinks (2301)
Hopkirk: Andriod18 (2197) --> Kublai Khan (2346)
Gamma Emerald: Kublai Khan (2488)

Ausuka

: PenguinPower (1960) --> Myloninja13 (2434) --> Flavor Leaf (2504)
Lalendra: Vaxkiller (2184) --> JarJarDrinks (2334) --> Andriod18 (2503)
EspeciallyTheLies: PenguinPower (1996)
JarJarDrinks: Andriod18 (1945) --> EspeciallyTheLies (2041) --> (Null) (2066) --> Andriod18 (2192) --> Flavor Leaf (2327)
Andriod18: JarJarDrinks (2116)
Texcat: ArcAngel9 (1987)
ArcAngel9 (1): Texcat (2072)
Vaxkiller: WhemeStar (2343) --> Myloninja13 (2472)
Wavemode: Texcat (2044) --> Andriod18 (2331)
PenguinPower: Myloninja13 (1947)
Myloninja13: PenguinPower (2437)
Flavor Leaf: JarJarDrinks (2205) --> Kublai Khan (2499)

Spoiler: Previous Voting History

Day 1

Note: * = Hammer Vote

Note: ^ = Vote after hammer vote.

Dunnstral (5):

Osuka

(77) --> Texcat (1388) --> Lalendra (1623) -->

Osuka

(1758) -->

Performer

(1782)

Srceenplay

(0): (Null)

Performer

(5):

Osuka

(623) --> TheRampage (909) --> Wavemode (1051) --> Andriod18 (1765) -->

Performer

(1849)*

Joral

(0): (Null)

Almost50

(8): Hopkirk (97) --> Edosurist (226) -->

Osuka

(390) -->

Ausuka

(1205) --> (Null) (1304) --> Vaxkiller (1352) --> (Null) (1380) --> Andriod18 (1460)
Fumuki (0): (Null)
Golden Robster (13):

Almost50

(177) --> Wavemode (183) -->

Osuka

(236) -->

Ausuka (317)

--> JarJarDrinks (319) --> (Null) (546) --> Vaxkiller (602) --> (Null) (1504) --> Wavemode (1588) --> (Null) (1589) --> ArcAngel9 (1770) --> Andriod18 (1784) --> [[ost=1798](Null) (1798)[/post]
Pine (2):

Osuka

(176) --> Andriod18 (1835)
Creature (6):

Performer

(385) --> Myloninja13 (720) --> TheRampage (813) -->

Performer

(898) --> Andriod18 (1449) -->

Performer

(1846)
Kublai Khan (6):

Osuka

(76) -->

Almost50

(122) --> Scioness Sajj (388) --> JarJarDrinks (536) -->

Osuka

(725) -->

Performer

(957)
WhemeStar (3): Lalendra (234) --> JarJarDrinks (797) --> Flavor Leaf (955)
Hopkirk (9):

Osuka

(90) --> Lalendra (279) -->

Osuka

(696) --> (Null) (993) --> Wavemode (999) -->

Performer

(1273) --> (Null) (1315) -->

Performer

(1458) --> Andriod18 (1679)
Edosurist (2): Texcat (84) -->

Almost50

(222)
Gamma Emerald (3): Vaxkiller (710) --> Wavemode (1107) --> Andriod18 (1711) --> _{(Null) (1889)^}

Ausuka

(9): JarJarDrinks (89) --> Creature (104) --> Myloninja13 (429) --> (Null) (742) --> TheRampage (743) --> Wavemode (998) -->

Performer

(1604) --> Lalendra (1624) --> Andriod18 (1680)
Lalendra (3):

Almost50

(209) --> (Null) (559) -->

Performer

(1229)
EspeciallyTheLies (2):

Almost50

(83) -->

Performer

(515)
Lovebird (1): Edosurist (259)
Davesaz (1): Wavemode (1014)
Frozen Angel (3):

Performer

(1579) --> (Null) (1606) -->

Performer

(1814)
JarJarDrinks (8):

Osuka

(85) -->

Almost50

(114) --> Charles510 (186) --> Edosurist (231) -->

Osuka

(535) -->

Ausuka

(842) --> Wavemode (1112) --> Andriod18 (1410)

Osuka

(10): Wavemode (80) --> JarJarDrinks (124) --> ArcAngel9 (229) --> Pine (332) --> JarJarDrinks (353) -->

Performer

(769) --> TheRampage (771) -->

Performer

(1047) --> Vaxkiller (1359) -->

Performer

(1384)
Texcat (4):

Osuka

(79) --> Wavemode (1080) -->

Osuka

(1703) --> Andriod18 (1777)
Andriod18 (4): Kublai Khan (190) --> Lovebird (290) --> JarJarDrinks (855) -->

Performer

(1796)
ArcAngel9 (4): Texcat (81) --> TheRampage (223) --> Texcat (604) -->

Performer

(1397)
Charles510 (2): JarJarDrinks (87) --> (Null) (310)
Vaxkiller (8): JarJarDrinks (363) --> Scioness Sajj (389) --> Andriod18 (437) --> JarJarDrinks (532) --> Golden Robster (678) --> Wavemode (1078) --> TheRampage (1085) -->

Performer

(1116)
Wavemode (5): Texcat (82) --> Charles510 (131) --> (Null) (838) -->

Osuka

(867) -->

Performer

(1108)
TheRampage (3): Creature (100) --> (Null) (509) -->

Osuka

(681)
PenguinPower (1):

Performer

(1774)
Myloninja13 (4): Edosurist (233) --> JarJarDrinks (326) -->

Performer

(1554) --> Andriod18 (1787)
Scioness Sajj (4):

Ausuka

(406) --> (Null) (1325) -->

Performer

(1552) --> Andriod18 (1760)
Flavor Leaf (1): Andriod18 (1772)

Pre-Game

Dunnstral (2): Texcat (9) --> Pine (43)

Srceenplay

(1): Andriod18 (62)
Pine (1):

Osuka

(16)
Kublai Khan (1): Pine (34)
Hopkirk (1):

Osuka

(66)
Edosurist (1): Pine (42)

Osuka

(2): Pine (28) --> Wavemode (33)
Texcat (1): Pine (44)
Wavemode (1):

Osuka

(31)

[Hopkirk]

What are your reads looking like Ausuka? I know last list had JJD, KK, and FL all near/at the bottom.
How do you feel about KK/FL interactions.

[Golden Robster]

You could say the exact same thing here, and literally just change that T to an S and does the same thing, if not more. This is projecty. However this does make me feel GROB and KK arent scum together.

just feels like he's trying to provoke a reaction rather than directly attack you

[Golden Robster]

Creature replacing out nullifies my town read on his slot.

this

not sure why people are TR his replace out

[Ausuka]

What are your reads looking like Ausuka? I know last list had JJD, KK, and FL all near/at the bottom.
How do you feel about KK/FL interactions.

JJD is towny, KK is meh, FL is scummy.

{Creature, Hopkirk, Vaxkiller}
{EspeciallyTheLies, Frozen Angel, Dunnstral, Jarjardrinks, Golden Robster, wavemode}
{Gamma Emerald, Pine, Scioness Sajj, Kublai Khan, Whemestar, texcat}
{TehBrawlGuy, Myloninja13, Lalendra}
{Android, Penguinpower, Flavour Leaf}

[Golden Robster]

When I put the vote down, I'd looked at how you interacted with Android, Wave, Ausuka, Performer, Flavour (though less here), Ousuka, Almost50, and a couple of lurkers. That's the main part of the case and was enough for me to move you to scum. The rest I looked at to see if I got a similar sense of things.

This, if confirmation biased, is going to be equally confirm.biased whether I do it right after reading the first set of interactions, or a few days later. So timing shouldn't matter here.

Of course whether it was put together before or after I voted doesn't change whether the content is valid or not.


Interested in some kind of reads list, especially your thoughts on Wave, thoughts on lurkers and why flavour differs.

all of this feels like town hopkirk

[Golden Robster]

Since you decided to self meta mofo:

Also, JJ is letting KK Kubla Khan some more. They’re taking turns.

Classic scum buddy move

.

Here are examples of flavor leaf thinking things are "classic mafia" in other games:

Spoiler:

Mini Normal 1996 Post #2154
Flavor Leaf,

Mafia 1-Shot Ninja

, lynched Day 4

I feel this is a classic “doesn’t matter if you know I’m scum if you can’t get me lynched” scenario.

Mini Normal 1980 Post #1138
Flavor Leaf,

Mafia Neighbor

, lynched Day 2

Like the bus a buddy, vote a townie, classic maneuver is the epitome of bussing and preventing a lynch.

Have you ever thought someone was classic scum when you were town bro?

this is pretty damning

[wavemode]

'Other people are engaging less' is pretty much textbook 'whataboutism' to detract from actually looking at an issue ('X is bad', 'Y is worse than X' doesn't mean X isn't concerning). Of course I'm also taking issue with how he's engaging/who he's engaging with- and maybe moreso, who he isn't engaging with. The critique isn't that he's not posting content, it's how he's posting and what he's not posting.

my point is that you can only play the game that's in front of you. if a player is generally low-activity, there's less to engage with. your case selectively glosses over the areas where KK does engage more deeply with players who are

actually present.

it's nonsense to say it's scum indicative because he "didn't mention" certain players, but then you gloss over the active people he does mention and engage with (presumably because you believe those people are town, so he's scum because his pushes are wrong. which is a fallacy in itself). either his play is shallow and he's trying to skate by without engaging people, or he's not. your case is clearly biased because you're trying to have it both ways

Do you feel like he was buddying you at all when he went hard against Ausuka/Performer while defending you when you were a leading dual wagon?

Even ignoring the fact that he later advocated for my lynch/vengekill (

after i became more PRESENT and had more CONTENT *hint* *hint* *wink* *wink*

), no I think his observation on the topic reflected basic common sense.

Do you think he's consistent in how he engages across the game?

No, because the players across the game are not consistent in their levels of content with which to engage.

[Golden Robster]

scum had multiple potential NK targets such as ausuka (conf town), wavemode (neighbour + possible PR) and vax (claimed vig and implied shooting me or wavemode)

why would they avoid all of this in favor of killing a50?

when did wavemode become possible PR? Wavemode was a wagon on day 1. Seems weird to suggest he'd be a possible scum NK.

wavemode was possible PR when ausuka outed as IC & performer was vengeful; the rest of the hood had PR roles so why is it weird to think he might be PR as well

the thing I'm torn about is whether this is town or scum which is why am back and forth with my vote

[Golden Robster]

VOTE: Kublai Khan
I think this is a good case, and think that the points brought up are valid points.

piggy-backing on someone elses argument & reasoning

what do you think of KK yourself

[Golden Robster]

Mylo slipped down to scumlean on my list with that vote on PP. I don't see any reason for it at all, and

it seemed like he was opportunistically picking on someone that he knew was not around when he was pressured to throw down a vote.

talk to me why you believe this?

[Hopkirk]

@Wave, considering 2502 that I posted above, why do you think KK pushed FL while not mentioning Android. Bearing in mind that Android was a leading wagon at the time and FL had no votes on him?

[Hopkirk]

Out of interest, what is 'Town Hopkirk' @Rob.

[Golden Robster]

not being oppurtunistic, not having base arguments and scum motivation

if anything your posts feels reasonable and not aggressive rebuttal or back and forths with who you SR with; you're actively engaging others and keeping your cool and actually asking for their reads list instead of stupid tunnelling

if this is your scum game then props

[wavemode]

@Wave, considering 2502 that I posted above, why do you think KK pushed FL while not mentioning Android. Bearing in mind that Android was a leading wagon at the time and FL had no votes on him?

Your 2502 is conspicuously ignoring 2211. Do you disagree with his observation? Or do you just disagree with his conclusion that FL is scum (and why, I might ask)?

[Golden Robster]

think I'm getting a decent picture of where I'm with everyone in this game

will start putting words down with my reads soon since haven't given reasoning

[Hopkirk]

Oh, I was asking because I thought you meant something meta specific.

[wavemode]

@Wave, considering 2502 that I posted above, why do you think KK pushed FL while not mentioning Android. Bearing in mind that Android was a leading wagon at the time and FL had no votes on him?

Your 2502 is conspicuously ignoring 2211. Do you disagree with his observation? Or do you just disagree with his conclusion that FL is scum (and why, I might ask)?

and before you say he just came up with this reasoning today, he made the same observation in 1204

[Hopkirk]

@Wave, considering 2502 that I posted above, why do you think KK pushed FL while not mentioning Android. Bearing in mind that Android was a leading wagon at the time and FL had no votes on him?

Your 2502 is conspicuously ignoring 2211. Do you disagree with his observation? Or do you just disagree with his conclusion that FL is scum (and why, I might ask)?

I feel it's clear I ignored everything after they started interacting since at that point either one of them could retroactively apply justification- and basically everything is justifiable in retrospect. He doesn't say that when he's pushing for a Flavour wagon D1.

He mentioned it in 1204 but it went nowhere. Flavour replied on the same page and KK didn't respond to the reply. Isn't clear here he has a problem with it. He doesn't start treating Flavour differently to other lurkers at this point.

It's also unclear why scum wouldn't vote anybody if they wanted to fly 'under the radar' (as KK specified). Not voting is something that someone will definitely notice. If FL wanted to fly under the radar he could have been on a vanity wagon D1.
Taking conspicuous (in) action isn't flying under the radar in the same way active lurking is.

Are you saying KK thinks active lurking is fine, but calling attention to your own active lurking/not doing stuff D1 (he mentions this a couple of times, Flavour does it explicitly too) is scum indicative? I don't get that sense, but it seems like what he's doing/what you're saying he's doing.

On a similar note, do you have a problem with FL saying he didn't want to do stuff D1?

Also while I'm responding, on the 1% chance it's relevant, if you're not really VT and you haven't told Ausuka that in the neighbourhood then you should.

[wavemode]

I feel it's clear I ignored everything after they started interacting since at that point either one of them could retroactively apply justification- and basically everything is justifiable in retrospect. He doesn't say that when he's pushing for a Flavour wagon D1.

He mentioned it in 1204 but it went nowhere. Flavour replied on the same page and KK didn't respond to the reply. Isn't clear here he has a problem with it. He doesn't start treating Flavour differently to other lurkers at this point.

Yeah and this is the crux of why I think your "case" is ridiculous. You look at certain posts and perspectives and selectively decide they are scum indicative, but you look at posts like 1204 and decide they're irrelevant. He's making the same arguments as a previous game where he was town? Eh, it's because he's scum and it's "fresh in his mind" lmao. It all feels rather arbitrary.

In my mind I don't really see the difference between starting to push Flavor on that page or starting to do so 10 pages later. The fact of the matter is there was something he stated he disliked about Flavor's play, and as the day went on he decided to pursue it. So I'm not seeing the logical consistency of a case that says Kublai didn't have valid reasons to treat FL differently from other lurkers, or one that says he is only now justifying it in retrospect.

Are you saying KK thinks active lurking is fine, but calling attention to your own active lurking/not doing stuff D1 (he mentions this a couple of times, Flavour does it explicitly too) is scum indicative?

I don't know what KK thinks, you should ask him. Could you point me to where he said he thinks active lurking is fine?

On a similar note, do you have a problem with FL saying he didn't want to do stuff D1?

Not really, or I would have brought it up. Though at present I don't know what to think about FL. Unlike KK's "hard defense" of me as you call it, FL's 2378 felt really heavy-handed and unnecessary, and actually does feel like buddying. And this KK push stinks. I literally asked when the day started:

Why are people scumreading KK? I think I missed what the reasoning for that was

And nobody has yet given me an answer to that question that doesn't make me roll my eyes, hard.

Especially

not FL, from whom I would have expected one the most at this point.