NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[Ausuka]

hi i'm here and should do something but i don't know what to say :/

how are people reading HWS?

[Taly]

UNVOTE:

To ensure a hammer doesn't happen just yet.

hi i'm here and should do something but i don't know what to say :/

how are people reading HWS?

I really would not be surprised if they were scum, but I've seen town play like them, and I wish they replied to me more and didn't have a 5+ person lynchpool.

[Taly]

flubbers probably the only still viable wagon given deadline though I'd find a TW or Taly flip infinitely more interesting

Can you explain your scumread on me? And the vote on

Flub

?

I'm annoyed with almost the entire playerlist at this point, so I need people to spell out their thoughts to me if they're not resistant.

Also, I don't know what to think about

TW

as well, EVERY game we've played where we trust and complement the other in playstyle - like all of our completed games so far

((I can link those games btw))

We were different alignments, and the town-side got fucked EVERY time... and while they feel different this game, I can't give an accurate meta assessment.

And I'm very confident that he reciprocates the feeling because I've

ALWAYS

been

"deepwolf or town"

to him. But I can't complain because that's similar to my read on him as well.

So I'm taking a similar approach to

MOI

at the moment, and that is to evaluate him while having flips and more game-info I can pry into.

Nothing he's posted so far has swayed me to read him in a certain direction.

[brassherald]

HWS is very good as scum by the way. That's why I'm always wary of him. He seems pretty okay, but I keep thinking that. The one game I caught him as scum was because of a bad vote on his part, not an actual good read.

[Skygazer]

My roomie force fed me tomato juice and saltines so I'm alive again

[Raskolnikov]

Taly you're more a really big blur with tons of thick interactions going out connecting to most of the game so I'd find your flip fascinating
If I scumread-scumread you, you would know about it. though atm as a minor thing I feel like you grandstand a lot which rubs me the wrong way. But on review flub losing his bite when the pressure went away means he probably is just scum here (scum countercase to relieve pressure, town countercase there as scumhunting. now that the pressure is gone so his energy so...)
though it's hard to get a grasp on you either way because you play kinda alien to what I'm used to and stuff suggests that parts kinda standard

Incidentally if you keep posting like 1217 I'd absolutely love it because I have a way easier time following that than connections from quotewalls to quotewalls and getting distracted by the gifs

[Chickadee]

@Taly

, I'm not sure what you mean. below are the posts of mine that aren't about me. It's almost all of my ISO.

Spoiler: Mooost of my ISO

VOTE: No Lynch

Well this is worse than giving us yourself as scum, Elbirn. Wanna wagon your scum buddy here?

I am actually inclined to give both Elbirn and Rask slight town points for their entrances. Slight.

Elbirn has since lost the town points, for pushing his entrance and running with it.

But I like that they both went against the crowd, because it stands out. It's a moment in the game where it's acceptable to go with the crowd and throw any old vote out there. They didn't have to stand out, but they went with the option anyway.

So you admit I’ve contributed something. Why did you lie about me and say I haven’t contributed?

I’m not tunneling either. Please stop lying about me.

This reads as needlessly defensive.

ausuka town!

Actually Flubber, could you talk specifically about why other people on your wagon are better, rather than why Ausuka is worse?

what if I told you brass is town?

I'm listening.

Actually Flubber, could you talk specifically about why other people on your wagon are better, rather than why Ausuka is worse?

A big part of my town read on brassherald is his interactions with gavot (already forgot their name but that's close enough). I've already talked about that.

I don't know in what realm Ausuka looks more town than Moi, who is taking a strong role in leading the town and generating content.

I'd like to know more about why you're town reading Ausuka tbh

I just haven't seen enough from Magna yet to move him up to that top tier. Just because he comes in and does wall posts does not make him town. But I do like what I HAVE seen so far. Hence 2nd tier.

And I'll get back to you about Ausuka, when I'm going through things.

The thing that bothers me most about flubbers posting is that their entire catch up is self focused.

Ok brass can be town today. I think i was getting him confused with someone else when I did that list.

I see less "caught for the reason" and more "you guys are idiots for scumreading me because I'm town and therefore cannot be scummy"

This is what I got out of it as well.

@Flubber - you asked why I am town reading Ausuka. I just pulled a few things.

I like that Ausuka was producingcontent early on and forming reads. And more importantly, I like the actual content they were producing.

VOTE: No Lynch

Well this is worse than giving us yourself as scum, Elbirn. Wanna wagon your scum buddy here?

Why is this scummy to you?

VOTE: Skygazer

I feel like the description of raskol's NL vote as "LAMIST" is probably the scummiest thing in the thread so far.

With this next quote, I just cant see any scum motivation in it. It's an effort on Ausuka's part to stop the toxic behaivor, and scum benefits more from sitting back.

As said previously {inferno, gustavo, profii} likely contains 0 scum and scum have probably been watching town implode so far. Let's try to put some focus on the real scum please instead of this. Is anyone willing to defend flubber?

Chick, mediating arguments is NAI because scum doesn't have to reason about alignment to be able to do it.

Why would scum not just do so in a PT though.

I tend to see mediating arguments coming from town 9 times out of 10.

Chick, mediating arguments is NAI because scum doesn't have to reason about alignment to be able to do it.

Why would scum not just do so in a PT though.

I tend to see mediating arguments coming from town 9 times out of 10.

1) I'm counting this post as a strike against you on the grounds of PT slipping

2) 9 out of 10 is bad odds when the majority of the game is town anyway.

Haha...ok

And I'm saying that in all the games I see arguments, it's very very rarely scum that encourages breaking up arguments. Not just this game. Arguments create good grounds for scum to hide and lurk, because they tend to make town demotivated as well. So it's easy to blend in.

VOTE: flubbernugget

Love her acting and she was amazing as Vanessa Ives in Penny Dreadful

omg, she was amazing.




Side note, not sure how I'm feeling about your posting so far. I feel like you've taken every chance to mention that you're town. And bumping someone because they town read you is baaaad.

Am I literally insane for thinking that Taly is scum for babbling about having a meta read on his own predecessor Dave? One of the oldest scum tells in the book, albeit I've forgotten the name of it, but yeah no one? Anyone? Bueller?

You are not alone.

(In no particular order within groups)

Elbirn - Liked his entrance, made him stand out, has continued to have good thought process since then.
Ausuka - I've talked a bit about this slot already. Solid town for me.
MagnaofIllusion - failing to see scum motivation in his posts. Would need some compelling evidence to lynch.
Andrius - I think I can confidently sort Andrius into a town slot.

brassherald - After mentally sorting this person correctly in my mind I'm town reading them.
Inferno390 - Not much to say, but I like their posts
dramonic
the worst - weary here. I think this is someone I am always destined to town read.
Taly - probably would not lynch today unless it seemed like that was the only option toward day end. They did get better. I actually kind of like that they were willing to abandon their reads and finish a full catch up before coming back to give updated reads. But there are still some ping worthy moments here.

HitAlt - not much to say that hasn't been said.
Raskolnikov - Need a lot more content here, but I do like what has been posted. I'm concerned about people town reading them and then they lurk. Seems like playing too safe.
HeWhoSwims - not terribly much to say.
Profii - feels like someone I am destined to always scum read.
xyzzy - please do more, thanks
Skygazer - not sure if all the scum reads on this slot are warranted, but I also dont think they've been omgsuperobvtown

Flubbernugget - biggest scum read. Don't like their catch up, and agree with pretty much everything brought up against them.




Roooough mental sorting. Sorry I've been absent. My mind has been elsewhere lately. I'm most in favor of a flubber lynch today. unless something big happens, that's where my vote is staying.

The top tier I would absolutely not lynch today.

Yeah, I'll add pressure to hit while waiting for flubber to catch up on questions. I mean, how could I say no to a crusade?

VOTE: HitAlt

This implies a willingness to vote for flubber, but not necessarily a wantingness.

Why put pressure there, instead of flubber?

@HitAlt, can you show me a few flub posts you really like? I don't need comments (though they're welcomed).

This was never answered btw :/

Hitalt are you missing all the prompts to do this or are just choosing not to?

No.
Absent-minded because of IRL.
Tired all the time too.
It took me more than I ever thought possible to make that one longer post.
I'll try to make another tomorrow.

When you do that, could you answer my question to you as well?

VOTE: Xyzzy

Flashwagon this. Xyzzy has naught but fluffposting and walls of "I like this post" with no real substance or analysis and actually clicking through their wall of post links only furthers the disappointment.

Scum is lurking through this game and letting us run up lynch baity people for playing poorly but not necessarily scummy. Rally to me boys and girls and xirs, the dark times end now

Ok
VOTE: xyzzy

But Elbirn, thoughts on xyzzy's latest post? It was a good one...at least what of it I skimmed. Gonna be honest, I am getting very sleepy at the moment.

UNVOTE: xyzzy

I don't know that a xyzzy flip will be the best flip today. But that was a fun wagon while it lasted.

I still want a Flub flip over anything else.

VOTE: flubbernugget

I would not be down for a Dram lynch. I buy the claim, and I was never really sure why there was a Dram wagon tbh.

Can someone give me a compelling reason we're not lynching flubber?

Wasn't this game advertised as mild role madness? I can see a prime number modifier being used for balance purposes or something.

According to wikipedia, 1 is not prime. I majored in music.

possible new favorite person onsite

D:

do we trust Andrius' read on dram? because Flubz is a rad lynch if we can't get dram. still. anyone who unvoted dram exclusively for the roleclaim should feel mighty silly

For what it's worth, I don't think Dram is a good lynch for today anyway. I'm firmly in the flub lynch camp.

[the worst]

VOTE: Flubz
L-1

[profii]

VOTE: flubber

[Andrius]

-sigh-

[Andrius]

A claim from him woulda' been nice.
Or like, time to post on the chance he flips town.

[Taly]

Did nobody fucking hear me?

[profii]

Lol

[profii]

I was already on the wagon

[Taly]

lol the fuck

profii

[profii]

Watch wait and see

[Taly]

Rask

I'll be more mindful that posts like 1217 help you, it's a more general look of my view of the gamestate and I think it often garners more fruitful interactions from others.

A lot of my playstyle is centered around interacting with the playerlist, it's how I generate reads and gamesolve. That's why I can be very forward when I don't understand something, or when I do and have an opinion on it.

My scum-range and town-range are both very wide and overlap in terms of behavior and gameplay, but I'm more calculated and alert about who I communicate with as scum. I'm less consistent as town.

[Taly]

lmao

profii

you crazy

[Taly]

Oh, thanks for the ISO

Chick

, has your unsure/null/IDK reads changed so far?

[MagnaofIllusion]

And I have been on the brunt end of this before lol.
So yeah.
@MoI: And if HitAlt is Town...?
Your statement can be applied to any claimed PR lynch on D1, ever.
And besides, there’s about 0 chance the lynch is happening now anyways. So what’s with the shade?

This post gets special attention because I want to specifically show the point where my early Townread on your slot was revoked and I want everyone to not lose this post in the spamming we have had lately. I think this post shows a significant amount of scum not Town perspective. I’ve been giving Inferno some leeway on what I thought might be innocent misreading (the one that most looms to mind is the “You are reading worst solely on being Nightkilled”) but that ship has sailed.

Let’s analyze each element of this post which I find filled with scum red-flags.

First let’s address the “And if HitAlt is Town” straw-man element. This is a pure discrediting tactic and one that doesn’t bear any resemblance to things I have actually said. I have not pushed HitAlt as scum. Nor have I suggested that claims should not be examined. Yet the whole thrust of this post is to suggest I’m willing to wagon HitAlt regardless of claim.

Now let’s deal with the logical follow-up element – “Your statement can be applied to any claim”. This is another soft discredit element. Of course my statement can. Never said or inferred it could not. However Inferno ignores the important element of analyzing claims – that powerful roles have a much higher downside if a mislynch occurs than non-powerful ones. Jailkeeper, even one with an oddball Night restriction, is a potent Town role. In a quasi role-madness game a scum JK is much more likely to get caught fake-claiming actions. Thus even if Dramonic is scum he’s very constrained to being able to justify any actions he gets to take (and frankly given the likelyhood of verification methods available to Town he is likely to be caught before N2 if he is scum) with reads. So if he even makes it to Night 2 he will have to provide reads that support his claimed action that have to stand up to scrutiny and cross confirmation. Yet Inferno paid zero consideration to this in his push to say “You have to lynch him he’s scummy and scum can have PRs”. The upsides to lynch Dram as scum when he’s a dead man walking if he is are far outweighed by the downsides of mislynching his claim as Town. And make no mistake – if he is Town that’s a real claim while if he is scum fake-claiming he’s absolutely doomed. If Dram had claimed something like 1-Shot Vouyer or whatnot he hangs as the mislynch downside is minimal. But he didn’t and Town has to consider the possibility they are wrong and weigh the risks / rewards ratios. In a Large game it makes little sense to lynch Dram based on his claim D1 no matter how strong your read is.

Lastly we end with “Why the shade” which is a double whammy.

First it is exactly the kind of buzzwording people like Taly have been decrying. The suspicions I posted 1225 are direct suspicions based on scum motivations. Yet Inferno seeks to handwave and minimize those suspicions by suggesting I’m not scum-hunting but “shading” him.

Secondly look again at 1225 and then look at that sentence and notice the huge disconnect. In 1225 my suspicion of Inferno (and worst / brass also) is based on a hypothetical – Dram being Town and being flipped in the future. Inferno is dead-set that Dram is scum. Town Inferno who believes as strongly as he does in Dram-scum shouldn’t really have such a reaction to 1225. After all I’m only positing he’s scummy in a scenario Town-Inferno doesn’t think actually exists. So why attempt to discredit my gut-reaction to that push when he thinks Dram will never flip Town? However … scum who feels they got caught making a scummy push on what they know to be a mislynch have every reason to defend themselves in a scenario that should not factor into the actual game-state if he was Town and actually reading Dram as scum.

TL-DR Summary – 1230 is full to the brim of scum-oriented posting and Inferno is now out of my Town reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Other thoughts …

Don’t like Elbirn’s 1071 from a standpoint of a reason to Town-read Taly. If Taly is emotional as he says then being suspected for a predecessor as scum is frustrating and just as likely to cause that sort of emo-posting. It is NAI and Elbrin calling it Town is just as bad as Dram calling it scum.

@Inferno

– So the whole Xyzzy wagon was scummy (1126)? Why is there no follow-up with you about this. In fact you call Elbirn suspect in that post but further posts like 1153 are not talking to him like you scum read him.

Profii gets the first bit of Town credit for 1159 and seeing exactly what I was seeing.

@Taly

– what was the purpose of 1090 again? I asked you to prove that you consistently caught scum using 1v1. What you gave me here was an isolated number of games spanning years that don’t really show that happening to my eye. I don’t particularly care if 1v1ing is in your Town meta either. I don’t doubt it is. However your self-awareness is such I’d expect someone with your level of experience to be able to integrate that into your scum game. So it is really NAI for you. I'm left wondering why you chose to spend the time on that post if it wasn't to show success at catching scum with 1v1s explicitly.

Brass is solidly in my scum pool. Consistent abdication of responsibility for his votes under the guise of sheeping ( 1097 being one such examples) and lack of actual game-solving from his slot don’t read anything like Town to me.

@Andy

– in regards to your comments in 1184 …

I did not call your wagon on HitAlt policy. I asked you to make an assessment if you were not compromised by HitAlt’s play. There’s a pretty clear distinction there and that you are pretending not to see it is troubling. Also I’m interested in you thinking I’m scum just parking on an easy mislynch. What should I be pushing more on Flub? He’s active lurking and beyond repeatedly pointing that out I’m struggling to deal with the 10+ pages a day. This isn’t a Geriatric and the only reason I am here is because Pine is great. So if you expect a huge wall-case on Flubber while keeping up with the volume of posting the only thing I can say to you is the following –

[Andrius]

I did not call your wagon on HitAlt policy. I asked you to make an assessment if you were not compromised by HitAlt’s play.

I know you didn't call it policy; compromised is the perfect word. And given how I responded to you earlier I knew that was the case.
Just called it policy since it was easier to explain with poorer words, albeit it was inaccurate. You weren't calling it policy so much as 'are you seeing red here or biasred'.

I understand what you meant. Sorry for wording it poorly in my haste.

There’s a pretty clear distinction there and that you are pretending not to see it is troubling.

Nah, we good.

Also I’m interested in you thinking I’m scum just parking on an easy mislynch.

Again, I'm not calling you scum. It would take a lot of time and a lot of build up to call you scum, which I'm not seeing here so much. Again, I have a healthy respect for your play and it would take a pattern of pushing derps and idiots for the sake of pushing derps and idiots to think you're scum. Just things I'm thinking about sitting on the other end of the table since I now have to actually sort out your alignment in a non-bastard game.

Oh no mate. I don't expect that. Idk just expect more push/drive/zeal since this game currently has little besides deadline desperation.

[Andrius]

Dude.
I've played mafia. I play league of legends.
I know disappointment. lol

[Elbirn]

Don’t like Elbirn’s 1071 from a standpoint of a reason to Town-read Taly. If Taly is emotional as he says then being suspected for a predecessor as scum is frustrating and just as likely to cause that sort of emo-posting. It is NAI and Elbrin calling it Town is just as bad as Dram calling it scum

There's a difference in tone between frustrated scum and indignant, self righteous town. I'm not gonna act like I'm deadlocked onto a town-taly, but that post reads as the latter to me.

[Flubbernugget]

When I flip town, lynch elbrin, and his scum flip will implicate hit alt.

Don't forget taly is scum.