Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Irrelephant11]

Hey the worst when you're around can you speak to Skitter being frustrated about being right and unheard (in this case about Gamma's wagon, but she says it's a common thing for her)?

[Shoshin]

So... BlackVoid, Skitter, Gustavo, Nauci, Bernie, and Irrelephant are townish.

NM, Mom, and Errant are nullish.

Key, the worst, and ??? as scum.

[Shoshin]

Have Mom or Errant given an updated list of reads?

[skitter30]

like tonally he feels weird and he like summarizes a lot and expects other people to come to conclusions for him almost? i said somewhere earlier that he almost feels like he's narrating a discussion between two other parties when there's conflict without really coming to his own conclusion. but idk if that's how usually plays as town or scum without doing a whole meta thing that i really doubt i'm going to do in the nearish future; i'm kinda prioritizing the actively scummy people right now

I don't think you need meta to see how scummy this is. His posts are fake, he's narrating instead of analyzing, his vote on Mom was convictionless, he didn't want to vote Gamma despite suspecting him, and his interpretations in 414 and 547 betray an informed perspective.

What makes Mom scummier?

it could be a playstyle thing tho, that's the thing; i'm saying idk without doing a metaread that realistically i doubt i'm going to do in the next couple of days; maybe i'll do it if i get bored but right now i'm just not feeling motivated enough to do a meta-analysis thing based on completely cold meta because i don't think i've played any games with him or even spectated any games he was in so i'd have to start completely from scratch. like without doing that idk if he just posts that way or if he's scummy, and i'll eventually get around to checking at some point

i don't think either 414 or 547 belie an informed perspective, although they're icky for other reasons. (narrating a debate without offering personal analysis and misrepping me respectively)

his progression on gamma is meh, his vote on mom is meh

i don't think he's scummier than mom tho - some of his posts are in fact townie and indicate that he's thinking about the game

i really know nothing about mom's pov besides for defending duck and wanting to wagon bernie for pushing her/duck. she's done nothing townie all game, and i don't now who she thinks is scum or why. her interaction with me yesterday was weird - my POV is fairly similar to bernies wrt her and duck so approaching me to wagon bernie with her is just ???

like i just don't understand what she's trying to do and i don't see her thinking about the game at all in a way that makes sense to me. keyser is at least efforting and posting readable content that can be used to sort him

[Irrelephant11]

@Shoshin

I’m estimating two scum on wagon and one off

Those of you off the wagon, since Gamma is town, which of the other four off the wagon seem most likely to be scum?

No, I helped lynch JB, and you helped lynch Thor, and both our slots lynched Flicker.

It's not "astrology", because I'm including:
1. how nearly impossible it is for 7/10 town to vote one of the other two town without a single scum vote
2. Scum incentive to vote town
3. That weird lull in voting and talking while the wagon was on Gamma that made me think he was scum but instead it now seems more likely that scum was waiting for us to make that mistake
4. There are 5 non-Gamma players off-wagon and 7 on wagon, meaning it's already +rand that there are more scum on wagon than off
5. Scum incentive to not all vote in the same place.

I'm obviously not going to vote someone I townread because of VCA, especially because most of these players seems smart enough to mess with VCA at least a little as scum. But vca is a helpful tool and it is honestly just very likely that I'm write about the 2/1 split, with a possible exception in the case of lurky scum

These are my two main VCA posts but also like half my posts since then have referenced these thoughts and I was curious why you're focusing so much on Keyser/Skitter/Mom when none of them voted Gamma

[skitter30]

Also skitter you were right I wasn't considering context with your read of Nauci, I was mostly skimming your EOD1 and that just stuck out to me.

yes, and this is the second time you've voted me without actually paying attention to the context of what i'm saying

like the things you've been voting me for don't actually match up to what i'm doing

I'm having trouble sorting you/am paranoid about you
sorry bout it

like i get that you're having trouble sorting me but the problem i'm having is the things you're using to vote me don't actually make sense in context or if you're actually trying to understand my POV

Hey the worst when you're around can you speak to Skitter being frustrated about being right and unheard (in this case about Gamma's wagon, but she says it's a common thing for her)?

read from there till the end, have fun, game just ended yesterday (incidentally that game features yet another example where i was right about the day1 wagon being on town and nobody listening to me and there being a mislynch anyways)

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10305994

[Shoshin]

What I mean about 414 and 547 is that those interpretations don't make any sense from a town perspective (as you said, he blatantly misinterprets you), they only make sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about (e.g. in your case, that interpretation only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows math is town).

[Shoshin]

These are my two main VCA posts but also like half my posts since then have referenced these thoughts and I was curious why you're focusing so much on Keyser/Skitter/Mom when none of them voted Gamma

I don't see why scum voted Gamma? It's not like there was a counterwagon on scum that would have driven them towards Gamma and the votes were split elsewhere. It feels like scum let Gamma get lynched rather than pushing it themselves, so I disagree that there's two scum on the wagon. You might be right but gut says otherwise.

[skitter30]

i mean, just because they don't make sense from a town perspective doesn't mean that it only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about

i really don't see that interpretation of that post at all; i just don't see the implication that math must be town from his post there

p-edit: i think that mom may have been gamma's counterwagon given the general resistance and idk how you can make a general statemetn of 'it's not like there was a counterwagon on scum'; town doesn't know that either way right now

[Shoshin]

the scummiest vote on Gamma was the worst. But other than that, I don't see it. Maybe NM, maybe Bernie, but I'd still rather lynch off-wagon.

[Keyser Söze]

I don't think you need meta to see how scummy this is. His posts are fake, he's narrating instead of analyzing, his vote on Mom was convictionless, he didn't want to vote Gamma despite suspecting him, and his interpretations in 414 and 547 betray an informed perspective.

What makes Mom scummier?

I have analysed throughout this game.

I think your accusation that I am merely narrating is disappointing and disheartening.

I was frustrated with Gamma (because I have played with him before) but this never translated to a scum read. (I ultimately town read him).

Mom was part of a D1 scum team theory (I did not have a tangible hard scum case on her) therefore, my vote and case would have appeared weak/“convictionless”. She has since posted D2 so I will now look into her catch-up and thoughts.


I don’t think I should be today’s lynch Shoshin. I town read you, but I am very disappointed you think I am the best place to go right now. I personally think I have more town points than the Mom slot too Even Mom would admit to that @Momrangel

[Shoshin]

i mean, just because they don't make sense from a town perspective doesn't mean that it only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about

i really don't see that interpretation of that post at all; i just don't see the implication that math must be town from his post there

p-edit: i think that mom may have been gamma's counterwagon given the general resistance and idk how you can make a general statemetn of 'it's not like there was a counterwagon on scum'; town doesn't know that either way right now

I think you don't see it because you're reading the post as if it's about you when it's probably not - the more likely explanation for 547 is that Key read Math's posts knowing that Math was town, so he couldn't imagine any other response to Math other than an apology. You could say he was pocketing Math, because I just don't see how else he arrives at his interpretation.

It's the same thing in 414 ("Mom came back with a bang" doesn't make sense unless he was already pre-inclined to read Mom as town, either because they're partnered or because he knows Mom is town).

Mom wasn't ever under much pressure, so I disagree about that. The moment Mom turned into a potential counterwagon (when Key voted her), Bernie immediately switched his vote to Gamma. So, yeah, if Mom flips scum, that's something worth looking at more closely. But otherwise, I don't see any sort of counterwagon that drove scum to vote Gamma.

[Shoshin]

I was frustrated with Gamma (because I have played with him before) but this never translated to a scum read. (I ultimately town read him).

Mom was part of a D1 scum team theory (I did not have a tangible hard scum case on her) therefore, my vote and case would have appeared weak/“convictionless”. She has since posted D2 so I will now look into her catch-up and thoughts.

I don’t think I should be today’s lynch Shoshin. I town read you, but I am very disappointed you think I am the best place to go right now. I personally think I have more town points than the Mom slot too Even Mom would admit to that @Momrangel

You townread Gamma? Why?

What was the Mom theory back on D1?

I don't understand your appeal to Mom. You think Mom would rather be lynched than see you lynched?

[Shoshin]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

[Irrelephant11]

Keyser why aren’t you voting?

[Errantparabola]

On my phone cause campus internet’s down. I will respond to things later
Here is a very rough, but well ordered set, of my reads


Bernie
Nauci
Irre
Keyser
Shoshin
Gustavo
BlackVoid
Skitter
NotMafia
Worst
Mom

[Shoshin]

Errant, why is Key town?

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser why aren’t you voting?

I was going to wait for Mom’s catch-up (complete my D2 todo list).

D2 analysis so far: From looking at Gamma’s wagon the 3 votes I did not like were TW’s, NM’s and Bernie’s. Mathdino’s was satisfactory.

I could have voted there, but happy with the current pressure on TW.
I will unlikely vote for NM today.
I believe BS will be a hard player to lynch...

[Keyser Söze]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.

[Keyser Söze]

I was frustrated with Gamma (because I have played with him before) but this never translated to a scum read. (I ultimately town read him).

Mom was part of a D1 scum team theory (I did not have a tangible hard scum case on her) therefore, my vote and case would have appeared weak/“convictionless”. She has since posted D2 so I will now look into her catch-up and thoughts.

I don’t think I should be today’s lynch Shoshin. I town read you, but I am very disappointed you think I am the best place to go right now. I personally think I have more town points than the Mom slot too Even Mom would admit to that @Momrangel

You townread Gamma? Why?

What was the Mom theory back on D1?

I don't understand your appeal to Mom. You think Mom would rather be lynched than see you lynched?

Please quote my D1 posts. Search for “town”/“lynch bait”/“disappointing”/“frustrating”/“real”.

I felt BS-mom’s interactions/progression on eachother were suspicious (posted D1).

I found it amusing you preferring my lynch over Mom’s.

[Keyser Söze]

@Shoshin - now’s the time to share that irrefutable meta evidence for town-invisibility.

momrangel actually came back with a bang.

I think you also misunderstood my tone: I was using hyperbole/exaggerating/heightened sarcasm to encourage the confrontation.


Did I actually believe your meta evidence on Invisibility was “irrefutable”? No.
Did I actually believe Mom had miraculously transformed into beacon of explosive truth? No.

I think I came out the exchange feeling best about you from the 3 players.

[Shoshin]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.

Can you link your games as scum?

[Keyser Söze]

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

[Shoshin]

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?

[Keyser Söze]

The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.