Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[skitter30]

tbf he does have a point - going into night yesterday he's not the person i would have guessed was going to get nk'd

but can the two of you maybe stop engaging each other right now till you're a bit more chill?

[Gustavo]

tbf he does have a point - going into night yesterday he's not the person i would have guessed was going to get nk'd

but can the two of you maybe stop engaging each other right now till you're a bit more chill?

Sure. Vote sho please.

I’m not going to stop pushing her until she’s lynched.

[Bernie Sanders]

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

Today, yeah.

ok i apparently read this whole thing wrong. i thought he wanted to wagon you while you were v/la with the understanding a lynch would only happen once you came back; i didn't realize he was pushing to lynch you during v/la - i very much object to this

No that's not the goal specifically but the v/la does mean fuck all

[Nauci]

Spoiler: @skitter

I have paranoid thoughts about BV; can you answer a couple of questions?

Do you remember how he treated his partners in his scum games?

Did he also post granular thought processes in those games?

[skitter30]

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

Today, yeah.

ok i apparently read this whole thing wrong. i thought he wanted to wagon you while you were v/la with the understanding a lynch would only happen once you came back; i didn't realize he was pushing to lynch you during v/la - i very much object to this

No that's not the goal specifically but the v/la does mean fuck all

i very much object to lynching someone on v/la in principle, even if i scumread them

--

Spoiler: @skitter

I have paranoid thoughts about BV; can you answer a couple of questions?

Do you remember how he treated his partners in his scum games?

Did he also post granular thought processes in those games?

i really am not a scum!bv expert; i'm very familiar with how he plays town but i don't know his scumgame too well.

i don't know how he treats his partners

i don't know what you mean by the latter question

[Nauci]

I guess I'll go investigate for myself this weekend.

[the worst]

orly

v/la until end of game

guess who's lynchproof

[Shoshin]

I thought Gus was the obvious nightkill but whatever. I'm done talking to him.

[Nauci]

What I mean about 414 and 547 is that those interpretations don't make any sense from a town perspective (as you said, he blatantly misinterprets you), they only make sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about (e.g. in your case, that interpretation only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows math is town).

I have contorted myself into a pretzel trying to see this POV but still can't

[Nauci]

i mean, just because they don't make sense from a town perspective doesn't mean that it only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about

i really don't see that interpretation of that post at all; i just don't see the implication that math must be town from his post there

p-edit: i think that mom may have been gamma's counterwagon given the general resistance and idk how you can make a general statemetn of 'it's not like there was a counterwagon on scum'; town doesn't know that either way right now

I think you don't see it because you're reading the post as if it's about you when it's probably not - the more likely explanation for 547 is that Key read Math's posts knowing that Math was town, so he couldn't imagine any other response to Math other than an apology. You could say he was pocketing Math, because I just don't see how else he arrives at his interpretation.

It's the same thing in 414 ("Mom came back with a bang" doesn't make sense unless he was already pre-inclined to read Mom as town, either because they're partnered or because he knows Mom is town).

Mom wasn't ever under much pressure, so I disagree about that. The moment Mom turned into a potential counterwagon (when Key voted her), Bernie immediately switched his vote to Gamma. So, yeah, if Mom flips scum, that's something worth looking at more closely. But otherwise, I don't see any sort of counterwagon that drove scum to vote Gamma.

I just saw it from the interpretation that lots of us who have played with Math show him a lot of deference, and Skitter was the same way, and Keyser called out that social dynamic essentially. After Math dunked on TW so hard for the game solve, I have a lot of deference to his authority too (pending his alignment, obviously).

And "mom came back with a bang" was a pretty natural hyperbole for "mom went from crappy posts and lurking to making a post with real opinions," IMO.

I do agree that there was no pressure for scum to vote Gamma when so much of the town was happy to "inevitability"-lynch there, but I'm not sure if it means that there actually aren't 2 scum on the wagon.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, can you explain why you're townreading Key?

[Keyser Söze]

Skitter wrote:
“i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}”



@skitter - are you currently voting Mom?

TW is scum tier below Mom in your reads.

I’m also concerned that it looks like you’re lining up my misslynch after a potential green flip on Mom. What if Mom flips scum, how does that effect your read on me then? I personally didn’t expect to be below NM and Errant in your reads.

[brassherald]

orly

v/la until end of game

guess who's lynchproof

I'm not letting you be VLA the rest of the game

[brassherald]

No Vote change.

[the worst]

orly

v/la until end of game

guess who's lynchproof

I'm not letting you be VLA the rest of the game

sorry--just confirming this was a shitpost

[Nauci]

Skitter wrote:
“i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}”



@skitter - are you currently voting Mom?

TW is scum tier below Mom in your reads.

I’m also concerned that it looks like you’re lining up my misslynch after a potential green flip on Mom. What if Mom flips scum, how does that effect your read on me then? I personally didn’t expect to be below NM and Errant in your reads.

See

2235

[Nauci]

Nauci, can you explain why you're townreading Key?

Because in his extensive posting I have seen transparency, scum hunting, careful analysis, and reactions which I both empathized with and thought were natural for town to have.

I think that you scumreading him is based on differences in personality and therefore difficulty in understanding his POV but that he hasn't done anything scummy as far as I know.

[Nauci]

@Bernie

While I was previously suspicious of Mom and TW's slot equally, the former is at least willing to engage with us a bit more and make it easier to understand her state of mind as time goes on.

Based on the last few days of posts from TW, I firmly think that he will be no more cooperative and has at this point no interest in elucidating his POV or scumhunting. He's refusing to answer questions (and not just from me), dismissing people's effort posts, unable to explain why he hated BV and now my posts but not skitter's (which did not probe him for answers much), and not casing any of his scum reads beyond telling us that they are scummy, and saying that asking him why just demotivates him.

I find it a stronger priority to go there at the moment, but I'm not done exploring all possibilities, as I still need to do a deeper investigation on mom, bv, and irrelephant.

[Nauci]

orly

v/la until end of game

guess who's lynchproof

I'm not letting you be VLA the rest of the game

sorry--just confirming this was a shitpost

Oh I think I misunderstood this. Was "this" directed at Skitter's post?

[Nauci]

I usually read my town reads with significantly more paranoia in previous games, but haven't in this one specifically because the town reads I so grokked in previous ones always turned out to be town. I'm not sure if I am in serious need of reconsidering the Skitter/Keyser/Shosh/BS pile, hmm.

[Gustavo]

UNVOTE:

This game is so bizarre. It’s day 2 and we’ve only had one real wagon. No real attempt at a counter wagon at all.

Not that my opinions matter to anyone but my gut says mom flips town. The reasons are hella weak and the lack of a counter speaks volumes.

@shos- if you are town I’m really sorry you had a bad game. @everyone else, I’m really sorry for the hardcore tunneling but I just can’t see town motivation in shos actions. This is the last time I type her name for the rest of my this game and probably my life so you won’t have to worry about any more posts from me about her. I’m just going to pretend she doesn’t exists.

[Keyser Söze]

Priorities for me are evaluating, in this order, momrangal, bv, errant, tw, Shoshin, Irrelephant unless Keyser/Skitter have suggestions

mom > tw > irrelephant > errant > bv

@skitter30 - would you put my name in there now, of players Nauci should consider to re-evaluate?

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Mathdino Case on The Worst in Open 719

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

-The Worst - not really seeing scum TW

what does scum tw look like?

he looks like town

that's the problem. he can be motivation-read but he also knows i know that since i've gone over his scumgames with him

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

he's VERY good at replicating his town meta

i don't intend to fall for the trap of metaing him again

from his scumgame:

Regardless of alignment I tend to get lazy around power players. But I'd say I play a more tryhard scum game, and definitely a lazier town game if I can get away with it. It's largely not intentional, there's just big battles of personalities which I don't really have the energy to get involved in.

As scum I loathe bussing and try to consider my partner/s as remote possibilities at best. The biggest tell I can see from myself is that I try to adjust my style to suit apparent PRs and conftown as scum while as town, I tend to totally disregard their asses and try to work with "obvtown" or sort "probtown" players

Also. Low key I abhor drawing scum but it happens to me a lot. xD (2:2 finished games on MS and I'm almost policy lynch in a Discord server I play in sometimes because of how often I'm evil)

Lowlight of my year so far: trying to explain my scumgame without softclaiming scum with Not_Mafia

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

VOTE: Math lmfao still at page 20

D1 paranoia here was this is the first time Math hasn't tried to read me by like page 3. I was trying to work out if he had me pinned for a future mislynch but afrer one post (I'll find it if ppl want)

I figured he was just being cautious bc he's underestimated my scum range before.

Lukewarm associatives and WIFOM about how scum!tw would play with town!math after our last game noice

welcome back

- i've literally played 2 games with you? the first time i replaced in and read you by VCA in my first posts. the second time, yeah, i'd seen 2 of your towngames (counting the one i modded) and i figured you were playing it and locked a townread on you.
the bolded is true though. so what exactly are you voting me for?

- that kind of WIFOM logic is also how i got a read on beefster in earthbound (based on how scum!beef would play against me after the last time i lynched him).
so are you voting me for anything other than BoP?

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

You had really good intuition with noticing the bad D1 wagons all around. mutant and Screenplay were easy mislynches, and often are lynchbait in other games. Townhunting is often more important than scumhunting. Problem is I think Espeonage assumed you were scum who already knew they were town.

You nailed Jay and Montosh. Jay really outplayed town with the super convincing roleblocker claim.

the worst, you fully know i think highly of your towngame
and also your scumgame
i just don't believe you think i'm scum here

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

1. Stay in the background D1, make smart sounding statements but don't step on any toes. Never be the scummiest person.

2. Broadcast that you're gonna claim PR. Bonus points if you do this as town anyway.

3. Openly push scum wincon without looking like you're trying to. Play dumb at every opportunity. If experienced players are trying to lynch town, defer to them. Bonus BONUS points if they're trying to lynch good town.

4. Get indignant when people try to lynch you. OMGUSing acceptable.

5. Ham it alllll the way up to the point where half your posts are scumclaims while the other half are "townslips" and dumbtells because you're having fun playing scum and you're having fun fucking with town's heads. You're having even more fun when you know you won't get lynched through a PR claim.

sound about right?

Well since I am having a little trouble deciding how to feel about The Worst refusing to respond to any of my questions (any of anyone's questions?), I went to look up a little wisdom. We all are sad Math isn't here and think he's pretty good at reading The Worst, Not_Mafia, and more, right? So here's Math's posts casing TW from our game. And some quotes from TW on his own scum play from somewhere else.

I'll let y'all decide for yourselves if this stuff applies here because I don't want to confbias, I only want to provide evidence. I have to go find some The Town games but preferably when it's not 6 AM.

This does sound awfully familiar.

@the worst - is Nauci's fear rational?
In your own words, what is scum!TW?

[Shoshin]

Nauci, can you explain why you're townreading Key?

Because in his extensive posting I have seen transparency, scum hunting, careful analysis, and reactions which I both empathized with and thought were natural for town to have.

I think that you scumreading him is based on differences in personality and therefore difficulty in understanding his POV but that he hasn't done anything scummy as far as I know.

You're talking in generalities and that's not really helpful to me. Transparency, careful analysis,scumhunting - that's stuff he's more than capable of faking as scum.

Are there any specific posts that make you think he's town? Or specific town-tells?

[Keyser Söze]

Why did you protect Gustavo @Shoshin?