Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Shoshin]

Why did you protect Gustavo @Shoshin?

I was trying to predict the nightkill while protecting one of my stronger townreads. I had Gus as strong town - his slot wasn't mislynchable because Stun was widely townread, and even Gus alone was strong town to me because his play was so different from his scum game. I also thought he expressed a strong desire to move on from D1 in a way that made me think scum would target him as a nightkill because scum tend to mistake that as a PR-tell.

[Keyser Söze]

I hope you can repair your relationship with Gustavo.

[Keyser Söze]

I wanna lynch someone

Why didn’t you join the TW or Momrangel wagons? They’re the two likeliest lynchs for D2.

[Nauci]

Wait shit the pages I read contained some PR shit?!

Okay I'll have to go re-evaluate everything

[Nauci]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.

Can you link your games as scum?

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?

The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.

The fuck is this shit; it takes like 30 seconds to link previous games

[Keyser Söze]

... and it takes a half a second to click my profile.

I was hoping this ‘trying-to-hide-scum-meta’ narrative had died.

[Gustavo]

If I was a doctor who protected somebody and there wasn’t a Nk, I certainly would never vote them or worry that they voted the same person as me.

But hey I’m different I guess

[Nauci]

I don't understand your appeal to Mom. You think Mom would rather be lynched than see you lynched?

Lynch or not, I'd say that it's pretty factual that Keyser has put more effort into the game than momrangal, no? We can disagree on if that effort translates into "town points."

___

I believe BS will be a hard player to lynch...

Can you explain why you said this?

___

The two derails involving Keyser are fucking dumb, but I'm not sure what they mean alignment wise.

-Linking your own scumgames is faster than us clicking all of your games and looking for which ones you were scum in
-Not linking them is being unhelpful and "prioritizing mom" is a stupid excuse because in the time it has taken you to post 6x defensively on this you could have linked them already
-Not linking them is not so indicative of "hiding" because the data is still there

-Why wouldn't you vote NM? =/= NM IS SCUM

Why are so many people in this jeezeless game being so difficult

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah, looks like the only reaction Shosh got was out of you

[skitter30]

Skitter wrote:
“i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}”



@skitter - are you currently voting Mom?

TW is scum tier below Mom in your reads.

I’m also concerned that it looks like you’re lining up my misslynch after a potential green flip on Mom. What if Mom flips scum, how does that effect your read on me then? I personally didn’t expect to be below NM and Errant in your reads.

yes, i'm voting mom, and yes i'm aware that tw is below mom

i really want to lynch in {mom/tw} today, with a bit of a preference towards tw becuse i think h'es been actively more scummy than her; she's been more scummy via gamestate from my POV. but there's a bigger wagon on mom and bernie is pushing for mom and i want a mom lynch too so i'm voting there

if tw became bigger than mom again i'd prob vote there again tbh

i'm not setting you up for a mom townflip; just a very large part of how i form reads is how a player fits in in relation to everyone else. i'd be scumreading you a lot harder if you didn't have a lot of anti-associatives with mom. like the two of you probably aren't scum together so if mom is scum you probably aren't. if mom isn't, your scum equity goes up. i can't really divorce my read on you from these associatives.

also i wasn't entirely sure where to put you; i don't scumread you exactly but i don't really townread you either, and i don't feel right putting you in the null category because you have a lot of material/content; i just odn't know how to interpret it; i probably should have put you in your own category of 'unsorted' or something. i'm getting a lot of my read on you not from what you yourself are doing but from associatives + gamestate, which are pointing kinda town, but if i'm proven wrong there you lean a lot more scum to me

if mom flips scum your place in the readslist is accurate.
--

@skitter30 - would you put my name in there now, of players Nauci should consider to re-evaluate?

in terms of reads, between irrelephant and errant, but i wouldn't really recommend that she put time there tbh because she has limited time it seems and she hard townreads you and i don't think you're in danger of getting lynched today

[skitter30]

i think we should move on from the gustavo v shoshin thing.

if shoshin is telling the truth (that claim doesn't come from scum most of the time), gustavo was likely protected from the nk, which pretty much makes them both town until/unless other night actions indicate otherwise

ideally the two of you ought to work together given that you both ought to be able to recognize that the other is very likely town, but if you just can't at least stop getting into fights please

[Keyser Söze]

@Nauci

- I still don’t fully trust Bernie like the rest of you. He says all the right things but I still haven’t got a strong town read of him (the same way I have on a stungun or Shos type slot when they open their mouth (different aura as they say). Bernie thinks I’m suffering from tin foil hat hell.. maybe.

- you can accuse me of being not ‘helpful’ but I was busy... and the fact Shos started to scum read me for it just made me incensed so I maybe went over board with being obstinate and childish.

- I’ve already talked about why I wouldn’t vote NM today. I also think my vote on him won’t help me sort him or encourage him open up. Even the f****g mod is outposting him. Letting him live doesn’t mean I’m t/reading him. I have better leads to look at on D2. D3 is new day. New information or a flip may change my perspective...

[Gustavo]

If I was a doctor who protected somebody and there wasn’t a Nk, I certainly would never vote them or worry that they voted the same person as me.

But hey I’m different I guess

[BlackVoid]

@Nauci, can you elaborate on your Keyser read on more specifics? Like Shoshin said, a lot of the stuff you pointed out is pretty generic and doesn't take into account Keyser's odd playstyle.

[BlackVoid]

@skitter, I'm going to look back to see where TheWorst pushed you as scum. His reads are pretty unbelievable (you, Nauci, Momrangal scum together). I'm guessing that as town, he's a perceptive enough player to know that it's an unlikely team. How likely is he to push difficult lynches as scum? Do you have experience with his scumgame?

[Shoshin]

In case this wasn't obvious to anyone, the reason I claimed was to try working with Gustavo. But he still doesn't want to stop tunneling me or reevaluate anything, so please address any issues you have about that to him.

[Shoshin]

Lynch or not, I'd say that it's pretty factual that Keyser has put more effort into the game than momrangal, no? We can disagree on if that effort translates into "town points."

Is effort a town-tell for Mom or Key?

[BlackVoid]

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

[skitter30]

@skitter, I'm going to look back to see where TheWorst pushed you as scum. His reads are pretty unbelievable (you, Nauci, Momrangal scum together). I'm guessing that as town, he's a perceptive enough player to know that it's an unlikely team. How likely is he to push difficult lynches as scum? Do you have experience with his scumgame?

so i think we've been tvt in all three games we've played together.

he's a perceptive player tho and me/nauci/mom objectively makes like no sense so i don't think he actually believes this?

i have no first-hand expereince with his scumgame, but i've never just seen him to flat out try to avoid being helpful like this, even the game he was trying to be anti-town as purpose

in a general sense, i don't know if he tries to push difficult lynches as scum. in a specific sense i don't think scum!him thinks he can lynch town!me like ever though; he knows that i can out-argue most people and pick apart bad wagons on me and that if i actually get lynched i'll make sure everyone understands they flip him after me on my way out

he also hasn't actually been trying ot lynch me here though - he hasn't voted me or suggesting i get lynched, just been shading me in a general sense

he also just doesn't like scum as much as town

i'm really starting to want tw more than mom tbh

[Shoshin]

- you can accuse me of being not ‘helpful’ but I was busy... and the fact Shos started to scum read me for it just made me incensed so I maybe went over board with being obstinate and childish.

I didn't say you were scummy because you were busy... what I did is call out your bullshit excuse not to post your games ("oh I'm focused on reading Mom atm, super urgent, can't help you"). If you had just said, "later when I'm not on my phone," that's different. Then you came at me when I pushed you on it, calling me rude for even asking because apparently it's rude to ask people for links? That's a massive overreaction to what you admit was a correct interpretation of your excuse (the excuse was bullshit).

So explain why you're so incensed about a correct interpretation of a bullshit excuse?

[Shoshin]

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

I still want to know why you thought Key was townish.

[Gustavo]

If I was a doctor who protected somebody and there wasn’t a Nk, I certainly would never vote them or worry that they voted the same person as me.

But hey I’m different I guess

I’ll keep quoting this until somebody explains why town doctor would vote the person they most likely saved from a NK.

This isn’t about tunneling cause I’m not voting the claimed doctor anymore, but this is about evaluating if the claim makes sense with the persons actions.

People seem to believe the claim at face value but this isn’t the time to just believe things at face value.

[BlackVoid]

I'm re-evaluating Key right now and it's not a strong read. I can summarize when I finish but if you wanted to know right now, you can see my reactions to some of his posts earlier in the game in my catchup.

[Keyser Söze]

I didn’t call you rude, I was saying I didn’t want to be rude (because I was holding back vulgar language directed at you).

You caught me at a bad time, and I felt your scum narrative regarding my motivation to not post links to all my town/scum games was reachy/inane/disgenuine.

I do admit my reaction made something innocent into something that has been blown out of proportion.

[Keyser Söze]

If I was a doctor who protected somebody and there wasn’t a Nk, I certainly would never vote them or worry that they voted the same person as me.

But hey I’m different I guess

I’ll keep quoting this until somebody explains why town doctor would vote the person they most likely saved from a NK.

This isn’t about tunneling cause I’m not voting the claimed doctor anymore, but this is about evaluating if the claim makes sense with the persons actions.

People seem to believe the claim at face value but this isn’t the time to just believe things at face value.

She said for reactions...? Bait scum? The protection may not even be the reason why there was no NK...

I don’t know Gustavo. But we are not lynching a claimed doctor on D2. Let the night phase resolve your paranoia.