Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[TrinityNZ]

Uhm. I don't understand this approach from you at all Trinity. What.

Nancy, was this a question? I’m not sure what approach you were referring to?

[TrinityNZ]

Uhm. I don't understand this approach from you at all Trinity. What.

i guess I’m just not understanding why OkaPoka is scum reading me, I don’t think I’ve given any reasons for it. I’m suggesting that we instead look for the actual scum.

Okay let's start here. What part about his scumread on you do you not understand?

OK, I found the question you asked. (A) If Oka is scum, I do understand why he’s looking for reasons to try to scum read me. (B) If he’s town, I don’t believe I look like mafia, as I think I have been contributing to the best of my ability to trying to find scum, and am very open (I think you called me guileless).

[nancy]

I really want to talk about my Iceman read because I feel really good about him and a few people don't seem to like him, so I could use a sanity check and maybe bring a few people around if it's actually a good read.

Let me clarify one more time becuae this is getting silly and distracting from finding scum.


Right now I believe that Nancy is town
Nancy would have to be an amazing scum player to not be town. To me Nancy is my first pick for town.

I made my comment about the IC because in the odd event that we have zero reads before a lylo that is where I would go. I don't see that happening though because Nancy is coming off so strongly as town.

I think the way he followed up like this on the PL nonsense is genuine, as bad as it is. It doesn't feel like he's trying to cover up on something after realizing he put his foot in his mouth. Like, he's simultaneously reiterating his stupid theory thing and his townread on me, so he's not trying to sow paranoia. I don't understand where the scum motivation is in any of this, and if he's playing for an angle on me then I don't think he townreads me this way.

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Straight up don't think he ever goes there as mafia. Especially after the earlier stuff about me, I think he would be feeling really conscious about how he was reading me and I don't think he would ever even think to get paranoid about me when I've been bleeding town all over thread. And just way he's talking about it, it feels so so genuine, the detail and shape of what he's saying about me, I can almost feel how worried he is. Like, a really reckless and stupid part of me is honestly tempted to just lock him as town for this one thing, that's how much I like it.

Iceman, who do you think Oka's insistence that the game go fast is scummy?

On this forum it's generally regarded as scummy. I kind of agree. The downfall of town is chaos, lack of information, or rushing things. All of our power is in the day when we can discuss and review comments. Speeding that up creates chaos and causes town to make mistakes, miss information, or not have a chance to review past comments for accuracy.

Basically speed only benefits scum.

Scum lurks in order to starve the town of information.
Scum creates and appeals to emotional responses in order to create chaos.
Scum insists on speed I'm order to force people to make mistakes.

This post feels kind of important in getting a read on him. I think if you look through his ISO, he has this approach where he's kind of focused on abstract theory stuff, rather than digging into the dirt of what people are thinking and doing in the moment, if that makes sense. I would normally feel like that kind of approach is scummy, but I think it might just be the way his brain works? I'll probably try to keep a close track of this part of his process because I think if there's a bunch of inconsistency there then I'll probably want to start rethinking my townread on him.

It's also relevant because of the speed of the game thing. I kinda think his Oka read maybe looks a little different if this isn't a thing he really believes and reads into.

One thing I don't really understand is his FF read.

For FF looking at just this game I would say he's a town lean. Actively engaging, pushing people until he's satisfied, and giving clear reasoning behind his reads. This to me is town.

Like, I don't think this is an accurate take on FF at all? He hasn't been satisfied in his push on anyone, has he? And he's barely given reasoning for his reads at all, so my response to that is, uhhh????

Definitely would like him to run me through his FF read in as much detail as possible because that's very strange to me and one of the few things that's really concerning me about his ISO here. Would sorta like to see a lot more of him, too, since he said that he was interested in being pretty active this game and I just haven't seen huge levels of engagement from him so far. Am also a very little bit concerned about how bare his ISO is in terms of showing the work he's done to arrive at the reads he has, so a bit more of that rather than just posting readslists would be pretty great.

[nancy]

Trinity you're um, a really conflicted slot for me. I'm torn because I feel like the way you've been newbtelling has been towny but like, you make posts like 520 where I feel like you're completely unworried about certain people being mafia or your read being wrong, and your scumread on FF seems to just be that he's not playing as aggressively as usual which is like, okay? Sure, I guess, but you haven't really done anything to try to understand his mindset or read into his motivations anywhere and I'm just struggling to get a sense that you're trying to figure people out here.

I still just have no idea how to parse your response to Oka's push on you. Like, I've read your past games, I feel like you've shown in those games that you're aware that the type of logic you use in 391, 393 and 395 isn't reasonable or realistic at all, so I'm left just kind of going ??????? and can't really figure you out at all here.

I guess I’m just trying to find my way as a player. I have read every single word in this form and have done my best to contribute, but I guess I’m not as articulate as you or some of the others. You put my concerns about FF in a post a few minutes ago way better than I tried to say it.

Although I don’t agree that I’m not looking for motivations. For example, I read that Oka’s motivation in pushing on me was to take the heat off him, and that’s what I was saying, and also trying to get a reaction back. Why is that unreasonable and unrealistic? Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

Omg lmao. No you're not breaking any protocols at all. It seemed to me when I read it that you were basically saying that because you were town and his read wrong that it had to be scummy of him to think you were mafia. This is like, kind of drifting into OMGUS (wiki territory and it's a pretty common thing among newbies. But the OMGUS aspect of it wasn't what I was weirded out by so much as the way you seemed to think that he wasn't allowed to suspect you and was like, breaking the rules for doing so or something, lmao. Does that make sense?

But yeah okay, how you've explained it here makes sense to me. I just didn't get that at all at the time, lmao.

[nancy]

oops I forgot to close the bracket around wiki, rip.

[nancy]

Uhm. I don't understand this approach from you at all Trinity. What.

i guess I’m just not understanding why OkaPoka is scum reading me, I don’t think I’ve given any reasons for it. I’m suggesting that we instead look for the actual scum.

Okay let's start here. What part about his scumread on you do you not understand?

OK, I found the question you asked. (A) If Oka is scum, I do understand why he’s looking for reasons to try to scum read me. (B) If he’s town, I don’t believe I look like mafia, as I think I have been contributing to the best of my ability to trying to find scum, and am very open (I think you called me guileless).

What I was trying to do was to have you walk me through your thought process, so that I could understand why you thought Oka's approach to you was scummy.

Like, step by step: why do I find it scummy for this person to scumread me? Because I think their reasons are wrong or bad? Okay, but are they blatantly misrepresenting anything? If you think something that you've done is obvious and they don't think it is, the only way you figure out what they think is by talking to them. You didn't talk to Oka, you just said "you have scummy motives" straight away, which is kinda sketch as an immediate reaction if there's nothing else going on in the background for you.

Okay, so if they're not blatantly misrepresenting anything, is it possible that they could believe their read on me, even though it's wrong? How are you going to figure that out? Read through their posts about you, look at your own posts, look at their other posts about other players, see if there's like, a huge mismatch anywhere.

If they're treating you wildly different than they're treating other players, like, giving one player a bunch of leeway but being super harsh on you, that's a sign their motives might be bad. But if they have a certain idea about how people should be playing, that idea shows up throughout their reads, including their read on you, that's a sign that maybe their read is actually genuine.

I hope that makes sense and isn't too many words!

[nancy]

Also sorry if the switching between first and second person was confusing for you, rip.

[nancy]

I was um, simultaneously me and you and the first person bits were you and the second person bits were me talking to you. Lol.

Also I think you're town now lmao.

[TrinityNZ]

Uhm. I don't understand this approach from you at all Trinity. What.

i guess I’m just not understanding why OkaPoka is scum reading me, I don’t think I’ve given any reasons for it. I’m suggesting that we instead look for the actual scum.

Okay let's start here. What part about his scumread on you do you not understand?

OK, I found the question you asked. (A) If Oka is scum, I do understand why he’s looking for reasons to try to scum read me. (B) If he’s town, I don’t believe I look like mafia, as I think I have been contributing to the best of my ability to trying to find scum, and am very open (I think you called me guileless).

What I was trying to do was to have you walk me through your thought process, so that I could understand why you thought Oka's approach to you was scummy.

Like, step by step: why do I find it scummy for this person to scumread me? Because I think their reasons are wrong or bad? Okay, but are they blatantly misrepresenting anything? If you think something that you've done is obvious and they don't think it is, the only way you figure out what they think is by talking to them. You didn't talk to Oka, you just said "you have scummy motives" straight away, which is kinda sketch as an immediate reaction if there's nothing else going on in the background for you.

Okay, so if they're not blatantly misrepresenting anything, is it possible that they could believe their read on me, even though it's wrong? How are you going to figure that out? Read through their posts about you, look at your own posts, look at their other posts about other players, see if there's like, a huge mismatch anywhere.

If they're treating you wildly different than they're treating other players, like, giving one player a bunch of leeway but being super harsh on you, that's a sign their motives might be bad. But if they have a certain idea about how people should be playing, that idea shows up throughout their reads, including their read on you, that's a sign that maybe their read is actually genuine.

I hope that makes sense and isn't too many words!

Very helpful, thanks

[nancy]

I need to talk about my Oka read too. The short version is that I basically think he's like, so pure and just the way he's all over the place feels really genuine to me but um, there are definitely some red flags that I kind of don't entirely know what to do about because they're just either him as town having really bad process or him as mafia lying through his teeth and there doesn't seem to be a huge way for me to tell which one it is without seeing a bunch more from him over the course of the dayphase.

I kinda think antialigns might be the way I lock in a read on him if nothing else works.

[nancy]

Very helpful, thanks

[nancy]

Oh my god why does this happen to me.

Very helpful, thanks

[nancy]

Alright I'm out for a while, I have written too many words for this game to deal with right now. Other people do things, thank.

[nancy]

nancy ~ )) --- Iceman, Trinity - Quick )) ---- OkaPoka, stan -- % )) - > Flicker ---- )) ---- FF )) ~

[nancy]

Rip lmao I forgot to move my vote.

Vote: FormerFish

[nancy]

I guess I hadn't voted.

VOTE: Quick

I'm putting my vote here for now. I don't like what's happened so far. I will change my opinion after Quick has made some solid reads/effort that is at least not anti-town.

This post really is weird, though.

Bluh.

[nancy]

Is there any chance that FF and Quick are scum partners and planned a bit of a set-to? What do others think?

Not a snowball's chance lmao. Would bet the game that the team isn't ever FF/Quick.

It would be a clever thing to do though, right?

Hum, I don't think so, no, not really. You'd just be bringing negative attention to both yourself and your mafia partner which isn't a good thing no matter how unaligned you might think you will look from it. Why?

@Trinity

[IcemanCh]

As far as other things I don't like about Ice, his case on me is pretty bad if I am being honest. It's basically just one thing he is SRing me for and it's something that I don't think is AI.

I mean it's not though.... It's not conf!scum but, it's enough for me to feel comfortable pushing on you. The fact that you keep twisting it into something it's not and that you're so defensive about the entire thing makes me feel that I'm right about it.

The basic fact is that only scum or anti-town just throws votes/reads out there with ZERO to back it up. Your entire first read was based on a completely bad analysis of the vote counts and everyone called you on it. The fact that you didn't read in and of it self is just anti-town. The fact that you attempted a bad read and then just shrugged your shoulders is what makes me think scum.

PLing is reserved for play that is blatately Anti-Town and it's been demonstraighted that there is a pattern of this. Ice is basically making the argument that IC's have a BoP, which is asanine since I don't think anyone has a BoP and secondly he is assuming ALL IC's opperate this way, which is kinda disgusting. You should vote people based on if they are Scummy or not, not because they just happen to still be in the game. It's completely backwards logic.

I'm not sure why you're trying to consistently twist what I say. I'm not for a policy lynch on the IC. What I am for in the lack of any good leads putting extra scrutiny on the IC as the most experienced player and one that can easily sway the game as scum. The key part here is the LACK OF ANY GOOD LEADS. If the current game state was right before LYLO I wouldn't lynch Nancy since I'm fairly confident she is town and that is a lead. In the first game that I played we went to LyLo with the IC. The IC was town. I had a scum read on them the entire time. I'm very aware that not everything fits into nice little rules that can be used to sort people.

ONLY Scum do that? Orly? I think I pointed out to someone that just because I haven't caught up doesn't mean that that is Scummy, it just means that people haven't seen Town do that before, or they are just trying to push that as Scummy. I have seen lots of Town not catch up after replacing in.. It's not Scummy at all. Some people make a that their regular way of replacing in, Titus being one example. Also, I didn't say nor imply any of what Ice is pushing on me.

Yea, that's nice that you can find some obscure reference for a different player that did the same thing you did. Totally means you're not scum /eyeroll

Why is that Scummy? It's not, you've just never come across anyone who doesn't catch up as Town. In fact, it sounds like this whole read is based on the theory of what YOU would do as Town Scum instead of actually looking at why I have taken this course of action. Theory reads don't get you that far actually, and I've known Scum to use them more than Town, so...

This was never answered. Instead, we see the following two posts where Ice goes Straight to putting me as his biggest SR to promply voting for me shortly after that.

It's not the act it's the motivation. I suspect that you replaced into a scum slot, thought you could throw something super scummy out there and get away with it. Cause everyone would say..... no way would scum come in and do something so scummy. Must be lazy town.

Town's motivation is to find scum. In order to do that you have to put the work in. You have to understand the current game state. You have to understand the history generated so far.
Scum's motivation is to sow confusion and convince everyone to lynch town. You don't HAVE to have an understanding of the current game state to do that.

So you have three options as scum.

1. Read and catch up. Put the effort in and jump in to mix in with everyone.
2. Don't read and wing it. Maybe you can get by maybe you can't.
3. Don't read but, announce you won't read. That way any bad reads or mistakes can easily be brushed off as... oh I didn't know about that history.

Sorry..... Not catching up is the most Anti-Town thing I can think of. You're basically asking everyone to start over.

His case is so weak I can't even believe it's a thing, let alone something to make someone a top SR.

VOTE: Ice

Saying it's weak doesn't actually make it weak.

Every post since from you has just confirmed my suspicion of you being scum. The last time I saw this from someone they were just about to be lynched. They threw and absolute tantrum over it. Thrashing about and swinging at everyone. It worked cause they scared everyone off through emotional appeal. Made the game an absolute toxic mess. And it worked. He was scum, he got all the PRs revealed the next day before he finally got lynched. It took two power role claims to finally get him lynched. So I don't think what you're doing is unreasonable but, it is 100% scum.

[nancy]

I completely left Eragon out of my readscale, fml.

[IcemanCh]

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Someone remind me how this isn't a scummy thing...

Tantrums and toxicity are Scum calling cards when they are caught.

[IcemanCh]

Like, I don't think this is an accurate take on FF at all? He hasn't been satisfied in his push on anyone, has he? And he's barely given reasoning for his reads at all, so my response to that is, uhhh????

No, I don't think he's been satisfied but, he can speak to that. I'm more talking about how he's not really jumping all over the place. He's pretty consistently pushing OKA right now. I don't think the current game state is allowing for him to push on Oka as much as he would like.

Definitely would like him to run me through his FF read in as much detail as possible because that's very strange to me and one of the few things that's really concerning me about his ISO here. Would sorta like to see a lot more of him, too, since he said that he was interested in being pretty active this game and I just haven't seen huge levels of engagement from him so far. Am also a very little bit concerned about how bare his ISO is in terms of showing the work he's done to arrive at the reads he has, so a bit more of that rather than just posting readslists would be pretty great.

Oh... this makes me feel bad lol. I feel like I've been WAY more active and engaged compared to other games. It might just be that this is one of the fastest paced games I've been in. We're filling several pages everyday.

One my struggles with this game is "showing my work". That's why it's been me posting readlists and then answering questions. I'm not good at the wall posts like everyone else is. I'll try to get into more details around my reads when I can instead of relying on Q&As.

I also base a lot of my reads off of theory. Basically I view the game as trying to match peoples comments to behaviors that scum/town would exhibit. I then push on the scum reads to see if they continue to conform to scum behaviors or if they don't. I know quick thinks that's a bad play but, I'm struggling to see why. If you don't have a list of likely scum/town behaviors then how else do you scum hunt?

[IcemanCh]

@Nancy thanks for the info about meta. I'll try to back out of my meta reads and use more information from just this game.

My read on FF so far is probably tainted TBH because I've played the last two games with him. The first one he came in as SUPER aggressive but, he came in when there was a ton of toxic play and pretty much when in throwing swings at who he thought was scum. He ended up as town but, I had a scum read on him. The second game I played with him was much more like this game.

Anyways, I'll try to reform my thoughts around FF and come up with a new read in isolation to this game.

[nancy]

Oh... this makes me feel bad lol. I feel like I've been WAY more active and engaged compared to other games. It might just be that this is one of the fastest paced games I've been in. We're filling several pages everyday.

Oh my god, now I feel terrible for saying that lmao, I'm so sorry.

You're very right that this game has been super fast paced. There's nothing wrong with your activity level at all, I think I just had certain expectations from your RQS answer, but I feel you now. Don't stress, really, lmao, your activity has been fine.

[nancy]

@Nancy thanks for the info about meta. I'll try to back out of my meta reads and use more information from just this game.

My read on FF so far is probably tainted TBH because I've played the last two games with him. The first one he came in as SUPER aggressive but, he came in when there was a ton of toxic play and pretty much when in throwing swings at who he thought was scum. He ended up as town but, I had a scum read on him. The second game I played with him was much more like this game.

Anyways, I'll try to reform my thoughts around FF and come up with a new read in isolation to this game.

Hey it's super cool that you're so receptive, and I'm really glad you read the whole thing. I kinda feel like it was a bit much to read and I probably should have just posted the four dot points and left the examples out.

Anyway it's great that you're trying to be aware of his playstyle, I think this fits pretty neatly under what I mentioned as a good way to use meta. Like, you have an understanding of how he /can/ play as town, in a way that you found scummy, so now you know that that specific behavior from him isn't necessarily scummy. Doesn't mean that he's mafia for not playing that way or that he's town if he plays in the same way, just means you have a better feel for what level to read him on.

What was his alignment in the second game?

[Micc]

.