Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[nancy]

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

This is actually scary. For reasons. I will explain later, lmao.

[TrinityNZ]

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

This is actually scary. For reasons. I will explain later, lmao.

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

I have FF and Oka as hard unaligned.

Does hard unaligned mean null?

[TrinityNZ]

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

This is actually scary. For reasons. I will explain later, lmao.

I hope scary in a good way, and not scary in a ‘OMG she’s the worst player ever’ way.

[nancy]

You are not the worst player ever, lmao. Not even close.

Unaligned means they're not mafia together. Hard/soft are just terms of likelihood. Hard unaligned is like they're never together, soft unaligned is like they could be together but probably not the most likely pairing.

[IcemanCh]

VOTE: Oka

I'm hoping on the Oka wagon.

I'm revising my read on Trinity to town. So Trinity, and FF are both my town players along with Nancy.

Come on Nancy, get on the wagon.

I also think Eragon and Why_Mafia have a town lean.

Sooo.... That leaves Flicker, Oka, and Quick.


Quick has moved slightly less scummy. Flicker is for all intents and purposes null to me.

So..... Time to push Oka.

I don't get the constant "Tell me why you think I'm scum so I can debunk" posts from Oka. Does that not seem like a good way to learn how to post to avoid specific peoples scumdars? I also don't like how defensive Oka is. For me a Townie is completely ok with being lynched as long as it provides a path to winning for town. So I would think a town player would be scum hunting and ignoring most of the stuff sent their way from fellow town player. To me the only time to address other peoples scum reads on me are a quick clarification to any questions/concerns and then move on. Don't bring it up again unless the person's reasons are scummy.

[Eragon]

Sorry Ive been so inactive over the past few days...

Ive had a very busy couple of days, and it will continue through Saturday.


@Micc can I have V/LA until Saturday, July 21st?

[Flicker]

(Catch-up post #1 is here... although I did skim the thread and see 2 people vote Oka in my absence, which is what I was worried about and basically the reason I unvoted him. I'd prefer to be more confident in my read or pressured by deadline before being part of an L-1 wagon.)

Oka's 414 feels towny to me, not just in effort but in tone/direction. Like, why would scum care if people were proactive or not? Scum thrive in a weak town. The only thing that would undercut my town read on this is if it was misreppy, but reading it over once there isn't anything that obviously stands out at wrong.

Formerfish:

Feels like he has similar reads as me, especially feel that 347 is towny

Eragon:

Mostly based on 180 and general attitude, if you will

Um, could you give more words about those two posts that you linked? What did you like about them enough to single them out?

Spoiler: RE: Eragon's post #180

but do you policy lynch ics?

Trying to pull up a bunch of other stuff but I'll answer this now since you've asked twice.

On D1 or D2 no. After that I think you should yes. Here is why.

As a town player and IC is just a more experienced player to help find scum. To me they only have a slight advantage although most of that is lost because new players can be a pain in the ass.

As a scum player they are like a super heros. They can easily sway new players into confusion and mislynches. There is a much bigger advantage to a scum!IC.

I also feel like scum is going to night kill the active/most experienced players first. So it brings in the whole..... why is the IC still alive after a few nights?


I just think that a town!IC makes LYLO super difficult.


Of course if we have a strong read on someone other then the IC we would lynch them instead.

Tldr..... If we have no super strong roads then IC should be lynched before LYLO.

did you think about scum killing people for other reasons?

Scum can kill someone for many reasons
1.they townread scum
2. they are correct on their reads
3. they are towny and won't get lynched but are likely to not have TP on them

while attacking IC leads to the possibility of hitting a TP

(on top of the fact that Nancy has been very towny)

im not saying we absolutely follow every word they say, im just saying we dont PL them because they are an IC, a good player, and didnt die early...

I think this is generally good advice and perspective on night kill analysis. It's a rebuttal to the "policy lynch the IC" that's helpful to a town point of view (i.e. for players who are town and aren't really thinking about what scum would do in any detail). It's not a strong read, though.

Spoiler: RE: Formerfish's 347

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

Not quite, VC1.02 has Oka, Ice and Trinity on me, but those are all RVS votes. VC1.03 still the same 3. 1.04 no change. 1.05 Oka and Ice change their vote and only trinity is left on.

Flicker wasnt even on the board til 1.04 when nancy and stan voted her. She finally voted in 1.05 for Oka, and I could see a possibility for a bus vote from her on her partner here. Especially if she thought it could put some distance between the two of them.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things.

Nothing to get caught from when the votes are all hellos of sorts. I guess I am a likeable guy and have played a lot of newbie games recently so I am a player that they are going to remember and poke during rvs.

That said, I have known him to be lynchbait

O rly? have we played together? Where have you seen me as lynchbait?

, but a really good player

totally correct here

, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Nah dont sweat it. Heres what I see. Either my read on Flicker is wrong, and she is pushing a legit scum read in Oka, which I also happen to share, or she is scum with him and she is trying to distance herself with a fake blow up between the two and then a bus vote. Like I said, I came to a scum read on Oka dependent on my own variables. If flicker is helping achieve the goals I want to, it doesnt matter what her alignment is yet.

I like how FF took the time to correct Quick's VCA here, both that he did it at all (I know he's got a little to gain, but not as much compared to me, a person he is scum reading) and the details he gave (they seem right). I also kind of like the mindset of why he's voting with me - it's not something I would do (vote with a scum read), but I understand his perspective.

Also, I feel like Formerfish and Quick aren't scum together, based on 380.

Am curious why you think this as well.

Briefly, since you've also come around to agreeing they're not scum - it felt like a weird thing for a scum partner to bring to the main thread. I feel like, if they were partners, FF would be disagreeing in their PT, like "Hey dude, could you at least read the thread a little? You're making yourself look bad lol" or something. Also, there's something about the way he phrased it - "can't begin to understand the game state as is" - that feels genuine and towny.

@flicker do you think one of quick/ff is scum?

At the point in the thread where you asked this, no, not really. If I had to pick one, I would have said Quick. Now... I don't know. I feel like Quick's emotional reactions could have been done by town or scum, and Formerfish could be responding like he is as town or scum, too. I almost want to say that Quick's reactions are

slightly

town, and Formerfish's poking (especially in 531)

might

be smug scum? But smugness isn't an exclusively scum trait, and it runs counter to my town read on FF, so... I don't know. ¯\_(:/)_/¯

@OkaPoka

How about you? Do you one of Quick/FF is scum?

And I think its odd that they have a town pile of 6 people and the other 2 are null pile?
So no SR’s?

FTR, I had a town pile of 5. I was scum reading Oka (fairly obvious IMO, since I cased and was voting him), and specifically responding to nancy asking me to talk about people other than Oka, so I left him off. Sorry for any confusion there.

@flicker.

can you elaborate a bit more on your reads and point out specific posts that make the person seem towny or elaborate a bit more instead of just saying "attitide" "active" etc...

Sounds like a lot of work. Pass.

J/K, I'll go back through ISOs and do this in another post. It might take a lot of time, though (even on top of how long this post has taken already - sorry, y'all!).

Spoiler: Quick's 508 & 509

@nancy what are the point of these questions, especially question number 3

Now that nancy's responded, I want to know: What was the point of

this

question? You don't seem to have a problem with them, given you answered them (in post 18, although with less detail than basically everyone else). It also seems fairly obvious that at least one of the ways nancy uses them is for hunting, given how she'd already started sorting people based on their answers (12, 15). Plus, it seems a little off to me how it took you so long to wonder about them.

I sorta don't believe that these are things that bother you?

Feels a little more like you're looking for ways to dumpster him for not looking sexy than having legitimate concerns with what his motivations are. Particularly the way that you're kind of passive aggressively painting what he's doing as scummy without actually committing to a scumread.

I'd expect

that kind of approach when you've maybe had a scumread for a while and been stewing over it and there's just nothing about the person that you like, not in a super early game situation where first impressions are still being made pretty much.

So, uh, why is it scummy to you that he didn't ask me about the RQS thing right away? Why is it a bad thing that he asked me about something that you felt should be obvious? I don't necessarily agree that it should have been obvious and I don't think there's anything super harmful in asking that kind of question, so please help me see why you do?

I don't understand your approach here and I'd like to understand it so if you could talk more about what you're thinking / doing that would be super helpful.

Vote: Flicker

Funny you think I'm subtly shading Oka, because I felt like I was pretty explicitly scumreading him, based on him subtly shading

you

.

Wow, ok.

@Quick

, can you elaborate on these two posts? I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at in the first one (other than it has to do with nancy's "I'd expect" being wrong), and I don't know what the second one means at all.

[...] Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

@Formerfish

, didn't you say you had an issue with players who were too focused on rules and procedures and stuff? What do you think about this, and Trinity in general?

[Flicker]

@Flicker real-time interactions can be fun too!

Not when it's midnight, though - I'm an old woman who needs her sleep.

Also, this is the second game where I've invited people to join a wagon (implicitly or explicitly), and they don't get on until I've gotten off. Starting to think I might be doing something wrong...

(Okay, back to work on catch-up post #2.)

[OkaPoka]

@flicker i think formerfish has a decent chance at being scum, but I'm townreading quick right now.

@trinity, okay, how about you point to specific pieces of evidence in which you think im scumymy? i still want you to interact with me.

@iceman the point is its how i interact with people, so point to some specific pieces of evidence, tell me why im scum so i can debunk.

[OkaPoka]

but then again i have better scumreads than formerfish being scum so actually i think rn the highest chance is both ff and quick being town

[Flicker]

@flicker i think formerfish has a decent chance at being scum, but I'm townreading quick right now.

Could you elaborate on your Quick town read? I know you said this:

dunno what to make of quick, the fact that he is making a vote based on VC alone is something i would do as town and then get promptly l-1'd and forced by town to do a srs reread

Is there anything else I missed?

[WhyMafia]

@WhyMafia would be cool if you talk about your reads outside Eragon/Oka

Those are currently the ones I'm most interested about in looking for scum though but fineeeeeeeee

[OkaPoka]

Because quick ended up catching up and even when he was getting put at the stake by FF he still found time to interact with others

[WhyMafia]

I saw someone talkign about my tone, well take this as you will, but im trying to be nicer and calmer playing FM

on my Home site i can get a bit riled up and sarcastic and jerky and annoying, and this annoys me as well.
Coming to a new site, a fresh start, i am trying to be calmer. I can see where this can seem like im trying to avoid conflict/stay under the radar, so i suppose i cant have both worlds be perfect. Im still gonna try to be calm, but i will also push and prod people to help me soldiify my reads

Catching up now

I saw someone talkign about my tone, well take this as you will, but im trying to be nicer and calmer playing FM

on my Home site i can get a bit riled up and sarcastic and jerky and annoying, and this annoys me as well.
Coming to a new site, a fresh start, i am trying to be calmer. I can see where this can seem like im trying to avoid conflict/stay under the radar, so i suppose i cant have both worlds be perfect. Im still gonna try to be calm, but i will also push and prod people to help me soldiify my reads

Catching up now

I'm saying you're tonally off in that sense. Like yeah, it gave me that impression, but I haven't seen that pushing or prodding. You've been passive and all your questions seem superficial. To me, you're coasting and giving an illusion of participating. You called people scummy, but then become wishy washy. Case in point, your reads list. Most of your reads are null/slightly scummy. The person who you seemed to shade, Flicker, you didn't even announce as scum? You never gave an actual read (unless I'm blind) and despite alluding to her being scum, and you being confident, I don't see that drive to see her lynched. Thus, you are scum

[WhyMafia]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

What has he done that’s incredibly towny and what’s been scummy?

Some of the questions Oka has asked have seemed very Town motivated. But what they are pushing is a bit suspect.

Can you give examples?

This might sound Scummy or stupid to you, but I have to ask why you need examples.

Because I want to know your thought process and how you're drawing those conclusions

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?

Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I want to know how

you

are reaching your conclusions.

[WhyMafia]

I need more words from WhyMafia about how his read on Oka changed and why he dropped his push to go onto Eragon because the way that played out feels like he was a spinning top that lost momentum and clinked to a halt against the tabletop and the sound of the clink is the sound I hear in my dreams when I think about scum.

My read on Oka didn't change per say. I wanted to interact with him and I felt like voting him would get him to listen to me. I honestly don't know what to think of the slot bc like Quick said, he's done scummy things, as well as towny things. I liked his answers to my questions, and his case on Trinity kind of reminded me of myself as town? Bc I used to make similar-ish cases as town and would try to point out how every post paints them as scum. Upon reading back my interaction with Oka, I kinda feel iffy how he only wanted to me talk about Eragon after I unvoted him. It's giving me the impression that he was trying to get my attention away from him. I feel like he's contradicted himself but my gut is telling me to trust this

I need more words from WhyMafia about how his read on Oka changed and why he dropped his push to go onto Eragon because the way that played out feels like he was a spinning top that lost momentum and clinked to a halt against the tabletop and the sound of the clink is the sound I hear in my dreams when I think about scum.

because to an extent interactions can point to being town but then on a revistation, i noticed a pattern.

[WhyMafia]

I don't get why I'm having so much trouble with quoting lmao

[IcemanCh]

@flicker i think formerfish has a decent chance at being scum, but I'm townreading quick right now.

@trinity, okay, how about you point to specific pieces of evidence in which you think im scumymy? i still want you to interact with me.

@iceman the point is its how i interact with people, so point to some specific pieces of evidence, tell me why im scum so i can debunk.

Honestly, I don't care or want to know about you debunking anything about my scum read on you. If I think you're scum why would you say anything truthful to me?

What I do care about is how everyone else reacts to my reads and debunks or proves it. I also care about your reads on other people and how you prove them.

[OkaPoka]

u have a pretty good gut then

hey if you and then everyone else refuses to interact with me im not going to be developing good reads, it's just going to be like nancy who talks to me and i dont need developing on that read

[IcemanCh]

So if you want to talk about my reads on others or your reads on others let's do it.

[IcemanCh]

u have a pretty good gut then

hey if you and then everyone else refuses to interact with me im not going to be developing good reads, it's just going to be like nancy who talks to me and i dont need developing on that read

It's not gut it's just that if I think you're scum then I have to assume that you'll say anything to get out of the rope.


Sooo......

Why do you think Quick is Town? Also, I'm seeing Flicker as null. Is there something I'm missing there?

[OkaPoka]

ok tell me ur read on the fish, go in depth if u have to, point to evidence if u want

@iceman whymafia has a good gut

quick is town because read earlier post

[Flicker]

I don't get why I'm having so much trouble with quoting lmao

Pro-tip: post previewing is your friend. Also, especially if you're on mobile, that Q+ button (for multi-quoting) to the right is pretty close to the single quote button, and possibly you're accidentally hitting that while scrolling?

Because quick ended up catching up and even when he was getting put at the stake by FF he still found time to interact with others

Would you say this is a strong or weak read?

[OkaPoka]

pretty weak and still subject to change like all my other reads except for nancy

[Flicker]

Okay, fair enough. For some reason, I thought it was stronger than that, and I was about to flip out. Silly me.