Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[OkaPoka]

say i said quick was my strongest townread

what would be your hypothetical post?

[Flicker]

Briefly, it would be something about how catching up and interacting with other people is sort of the bare minimum for any player, with maybe a side of "Are you sure you're not just town reading him for having a similar posting/play style?" depending on how salty I felt. (Admittedly, I also sometimes town read people based on having a similar posting/play style, which is another thing I'm trying to work on.)

[OkaPoka]

no that's fair, i scumread people for playing similar to my scum games and townread people playing similar to my towngames

easier to empathize

[OkaPoka]

after some thought

i think two of the scum are in
iceman/trinity/eragon

[Formerfish]

Ok, Just got home from work, but I've pregamed and am 1 red bull deep right now. Going to figure out where I need to go from and start there. Is anyone actively on right now?

[OkaPoka]

ill be back soon (30 mins to an hour maybe?)

[Formerfish]

So @FF I think my issues with you come down to two basic things.

One is that I feel like your process has been pretty uneven. Early in the game you were spooling out a bunch of logic in how you were reading things, covering all the angles, and then you kind of just stopped doing that at a certain point? The first time you talked about your reads as a whole you barely had two sentences to say about them all, they didn't feel thought-through at all and that felt pretty wrong to me.

My process is kinda uneven. Thats why if you look at my game history right now its gonna be all newbie games. I had something personal happen about a year ago and I left the game as a result of my outside emotions not being able to take the emotions of the game. I have recently been feeling better and have been using the games in my attempt to become more active with other people even if it is just in post form. Most of my conversations lately have been with a 5yo, so its nice to be around equals for a bit. Coming back I really wanted to focus on honing my game play, because I felt like I had become to erratic. So in essence its like I went to the majors, got a case of the yips and now I am back down in the minor leagues figuring out who I am again.

And when I look at the way you've been pushing Oka and now Quick, your logic feels a little sloppy and it doesn't super feel like you're actually trying to get a read on their alignment? Feels like you're just shoving on them and trying to sell your read with fire rather than actually believing that they're mafia and you have a correct read. I also haven't really seen any reassessment or doubt from at all on your Oka read and that's sorta concerning. I agree with Quick's feeling that it seemed like you were trying to antagonize him there while he was tilted and I think that's kinda scummy of you.

I play a lot with my gut instinct as well. Thats where the unevenness comes in. I try to analyze things at first, then my gut starts in and then it seems like I am jumping from person to person. It happens when I play poker too, I just get antsy. That is one thing I am trying to mitigate as much as possible by recognizing the behavior and not engaging in it. And most of the shoving I'm doing right now is to see how they shove back. But thats for another post I suppose. And I wasn't trying to antagonize him per se, more I was trying to bring light to the fact that he did have a choice there.

And like, your entire scumread on Oka is based on meta and I think that's scummy of you as well. I haven't seen you engage with Oka's content outside of the narrow scope of a meta take you on had on his early game.

I never said I had an air tight case against Oka, just that I thought his behavior has been more scummy here than what I am used to. And my push on him was designed to see how he reacts. Same with Quick. Sometimes to get a good read on someone I need them to get pissed at me and do something stupid. Or ignore me and play the game.

The other is that I don't really know what you're doing to solve the game here. (This is kind of tied into the first thing about your process.) I don't think you've really gone over what your townreads are and why they are things and that's pretty concerning to me considering how active you've been. You have a PoE pool but I haven't seen any of the work that you've done in getting there or any of the work you've done to refine it or challenge it. Kinda just, yeah, would like to see more from you than the sort of agenda-y pushes that it feels to me like you've been doing for most of the game so far.

I'm not trying to solve the game here. I am trying to figure out who is most likely scum on day 1 and lynch there. I've tried the whole solve the game thing where I try to pick out the scum and then only look there. It usually ends with me tunneling on a townie or two, and if im super lucky some scum. Lately I find that if I look for 1 scum and worry about partners til after the flip.

[Formerfish]

Id like to know how exactly. He mentioned multiple times he wsnt going to catch up, and he caught some flack for that. Then the next thing we know he is doing isos and then is fully caught up. Like I said he could have not done that and still played the game, but instead he made a choice to listen to the group. I think that exploring how that happened is game relevant. And I dont like how he just skipped over the rest of the post which would help me understand where he was coming from if he could show some of the posts that helped him form his read on me.

That's fair. Am referring to the "Was it so hard to click that little Q button to focus on posts of mine you didnt like?" bit.

Yeah, that line had some zing to it, but I feel like the tone was just copied from his own posts where he let some sass through. I could have said it in a tamer way.

[Micc]

Votecount 1.12

OkaPoka (3) -

Formerfish, TrinityNZ, IcemanCh

Formerfish (2) -

Quick, nancy

TrinityNZ (1) -

OkaPoka

Eragon (1) -

WhyMafia

Not Voting (2) -

Eragon, Flicker

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

[Formerfish]

And like, your entire scumread on Oka is based on meta and I think that's scummy of you as well. I haven't seen you engage with Oka's content outside of the narrow scope of a meta take you on had on his early game.

and your scumread on FF seems to just be that he's not playing as aggressively as usual which is like, okay? Sure, I guess

So I'm being scumread for a meta case on Oka, but trinity gets an okay sure I guess for a meta read on me that she has even admitted isn't as strong as she thought it was because I was alive for day 1 before she night killed me night 1. It takes me til the end of day 1 and further into the game for me to ramp up. This is like the lower levels of Dragon Ball for me. Just wait for me to lvl up and hit super saiyan. Shits bitchin.

[Formerfish]

Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

You know 2.8 caught hella heat for using protocols as an excuse last game, are you intentionally trying to imitate that here?

[OkaPoka]

ok im back

talk time?

[OkaPoka]

@formerfish if you want you can do a deeper meta dive on my older games. also had a recent newbie scum game completed if you want to see my scum game. id characterize my meta game as pretty aggro, but im not that good at self reflection

[Formerfish]

He's been town in all the games I've played. So I guess I'm missing what his scum play looks like.

Probably pretty similar to his town game.

Its a lot tighter. By that I mean that I dont play as loose. I watch everything I say and when it is said. I have a plan on who I can manipulate and how and I follow the plan until something else comes up, then I/we adjust and move on. My goal as scum is to live as long as possible by any means necessary. I lie, I mislead and I confuse. Being scum takes a lot out of me and the level of engagement varies depending on what is happening in the game vs. what I want to be happening in the game.

I wish I could give you a recent on, but the only recent scum game I have is where I replaced in and immediately counterclaimed a town pr.Newbie 1871

This is a scum game of mine from last year.
Mini Normal 1883

[Formerfish]

I don't see why a vote on her would've been bad at this point of time. So what if she's new and at that point of the game, she was his best lead? It seems like he was willing to confront her, but didn't want to risk antagonizing her or voting her? Idk, something seems off about him saying that. So slight town lean on Flicker, and slight scum lean on FormerFish as of these posts.

Im working on not throwing my vote around like Dirk Digler at a step class. I like to engage with people who I feel like I need to and my vote goes where I think it is best placed at that time. I dislike the vote then engage technique because I feel like it lacks the sting a vote needs to really change how a person would react. Its like announcing that the vote is a pressure vote and expecting the person to do anything about it.

[Formerfish]

@ff is your case still reliant on me being too aggro and that not fitting my meta?

Yeah, but that started to wain when you took a step back and started wandering around. This is what you did last game eventually as well. It just took a different way to get there. I'm going to have to iso you though to get a final read here.

[Formerfish]

I don't really have a read on Oka. I think something they are doing is Scummy and other things they are doing is incredibly Townie. Overall, I'd say Null Town (which is weaker than Town Lean for me).

What has he done that’s incredibly towny and what’s been scummy?

Some of the questions Oka has asked have seemed very Town motivated. But what they are pushing is a bit suspect.

Can you give examples?

This might sound Scummy or stupid to you, but I have to ask why you need examples.

Because I want to know your thought process and how you're drawing those conclusions

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?

Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

See this is the type of post that worries me. WM is asking a simple question, "Please give examples of times you felt the way you said you did when you read Okas posts"

"Umm... nah. You read his posts and ones that fit in your mind are the ones I am thinking of. Totally those posts."

[Formerfish]

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

[Formerfish]

mahhh, I suppose I overlooked Trinity. I feel like Nancy's 570 kind of represents how I feel. I want Trinity to do more, and she seems to be nooby to me. She isn't really pinging my scum radar, but I get what you mean by her being passive and not being proactive. @Trinity, can you convince me on who your biggest scum read is and why we should Lynch them? @Oka can you do the same?

I’m trying to catch up on today’s posts, so will post something more later, but for now FF is still my biggest scum read. He’s really only been leaning on Oka, and not putting in the effort on others that I would have expected.

What others should I be putting in work on and why do you expect me to be doing that?

[Formerfish]

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

I have FF and Oka as hard unaligned.

So since your vote is on me right now meaning you think I am scum then you must have a town read by proxy on Oka, right?

[Formerfish]

Spoiler: RE: Formerfish's 347

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

Not quite, VC1.02 has Oka, Ice and Trinity on me, but those are all RVS votes. VC1.03 still the same 3. 1.04 no change. 1.05 Oka and Ice change their vote and only trinity is left on.

Flicker wasnt even on the board til 1.04 when nancy and stan voted her. She finally voted in 1.05 for Oka, and I could see a possibility for a bus vote from her on her partner here. Especially if she thought it could put some distance between the two of them.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things.

Nothing to get caught from when the votes are all hellos of sorts. I guess I am a likeable guy and have played a lot of newbie games recently so I am a player that they are going to remember and poke during rvs.

That said, I have known him to be lynchbait

O rly? have we played together? Where have you seen me as lynchbait?

, but a really good player

totally correct here

, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Nah dont sweat it. Heres what I see. Either my read on Flicker is wrong, and she is pushing a legit scum read in Oka, which I also happen to share, or she is scum with him and she is trying to distance herself with a fake blow up between the two and then a bus vote. Like I said, I came to a scum read on Oka dependent on my own variables. If flicker is helping achieve the goals I want to, it doesnt matter what her alignment is yet.

I like how FF took the time to correct Quick's VCA here, both that he did it at all (I know he's got a little to gain, but not as much compared to me, a person he is scum reading) and the details he gave (they seem right). I also kind of like the mindset of why he's voting with me - it's not something I would do (vote with a scum read), but I understand his perspective.

Also, I feel like Formerfish and Quick aren't scum together, based on 380.

Am curious why you think this as well.

Briefly, since you've also come around to agreeing they're not scum - it felt like a weird thing for a scum partner to bring to the main thread. I feel like, if they were partners, FF would be disagreeing in their PT, like "Hey dude, could you at least read the thread a little? You're making yourself look bad lol" or something. Also, there's something about the way he phrased it - "can't begin to understand the game state as is" - that feels genuine and towny.

@flicker do you think one of quick/ff is scum?

At the point in the thread where you asked this, no, not really. If I had to pick one, I would have said Quick. Now... I don't know. I feel like Quick's emotional reactions could have been done by town or scum, and Formerfish could be responding like he is as town or scum, too. I almost want to say that Quick's reactions are

slightly

town, and Formerfish's poking (especially in 531)

might

be smug scum? But smugness isn't an exclusively scum trait, and it runs counter to my town read on FF, so... I don't know. ¯\_(:/)_/¯

This is actually pretty good analysis of my play style. Its mean to infuriate people a little, but it can be a volatile one as well. I like the thought that went into reading me.

[...] Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

@Formerfish

, didn't you say you had an issue with players who were too focused on rules and procedures and stuff? What do you think about this, and Trinity in general?

I dont love it, as I mentioned I think in a post a made myself. They were scum together and it was one of the things that tipped us to her partner being scum in that game. Lynched day 1, and then the remaining town lynched her day 2 for the win.

[Quick]

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

[Formerfish]

This is actually pretty good analysis of my play style. Its mean to infuriate people a little, but it can be a volatile one as well. I like the thought that went into reading me.

I buried my comment by accident in the quote. The bold is mine.

[Formerfish]

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

[Quick]

Because quick ended up catching up and even when he was getting put at the stake by FF he still found time to interact with others

TBH, this is not a very good reason to TR me.