Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[Quick]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

Is this a legit question? Are you asking nancy the player or nancy the IC?

Yes and this is directed towards nancy the player.

as for FF im pretty sure he is town because interactions and the fact that he left my wagon for a pretty low potential wagon but I have still have a running theory on reading him that is going to need more time to resolve itself

i guess i dont really make sense, at that time i was thinking ff had a good chance of being scum, then i thought to myself there are more scummy people ahead of him so meh probably not

You had mentioned something that either was playing out or could play out that would have helped you figure out my alignment. Care to talk about that more?

It is still a work in progress.

I thought you said FF and I was TvT, unless that was someone else.

[Formerfish]

My process is kinda uneven. Thats why if you look at my game history right now its gonna be all newbie games. I had something personal happen about a year ago and I left the game as a result of my outside emotions not being able to take the emotions of the game. I have recently been feeling better and have been using the games in my attempt to become more active with other people even if it is just in post form. Most of my conversations lately have been with a 5yo, so its nice to be around equals for a bit. Coming back I really wanted to focus on honing my game play, because I felt like I had become to erratic. So in essence its like I went to the majors, got a case of the yips and now I am back down in the minor leagues figuring out who I am again.

Less than three.

Less than three?

Just so you're aware, I generally am not going to get much from you talking to me about my scumread on you, or you trying to address things directly to me that I've said I have concerns about. Unless you think I'm like clearly misunderstanding you and something that I've said needs to be clarified, the way that I'll be able to reassess on you here and get a townread on you if you're town is by you just doing your thing and being as transparent about it as possible.

So you dont want me to interact with you directly to help you read me, you want to do it more passively as an observer with how I interact with everyone else?

But um, I think I said in there that I struggle to understand your reads and that's something that you can pretty easily address by, well, talking about them.

I am more than willing to discuss anything in specific that you would like to. Ask me a question and lets see where we end up.

So I'm being scumread for a meta case on Oka, but trinity gets an okay sure I guess for a meta read on me that she has even admitted isn't as strong as she thought it was because I was alive for day 1 before she night killed me night 1.

It's a small thing that I dislike, you're not being scumread simply because you have a meta read. That would be silly. And I think you misunderstood the post? I was specifically saying that as a thing that I didn't like about her. It wasn't a "sure, that's fine", it was a "ugh, do you have to", and the span of that thought was that her read was shallow. Did you not get that? Because I felt like I expressed that pretty clearly and I can't tell if you're just looking for a gripe there or not.

I did not get that you were finding fault in that with her. Thats why I pointed out what I thought was an inaccuracy in your play. That makes more sense.

[OkaPoka]

I did say I thought you and formerfish was likely a TvT, but I have running theories that I'm not going to just reveal because nothing is solidified.

[Formerfish]

mahhh, I suppose I overlooked Trinity. I feel like Nancy's 570 kind of represents how I feel. I want Trinity to do more, and she seems to be nooby to me. She isn't really pinging my scum radar, but I get what you mean by her being passive and not being proactive. @Trinity, can you convince me on who your biggest scum read is and why we should Lynch them? @Oka can you do the same?

I’m trying to catch up on today’s posts, so will post something more later, but for now FF is still my biggest scum read. He’s really only been leaning on Oka, and not putting in the effort on others that I would have expected.

What others should I be putting in work on and why do you expect me to be doing that?

This post of mine was superseded once I’d iso’d You and I am now thinking you’re town.

That doesnt change my question. At the point in time you made this post you felt like I should be putting in effort on certain people. Who and why?

[OkaPoka]

I did say I thought you and formerfish was likely a TvT, but I have running theories that I'm not going to just reveal because nothing is solidified.

This response was directed towards Quick in case someone wants to iso me later.

[Formerfish]

So you know I’m playing a completely different game to the last one right? I think I’m more honest and open, as I don’t have to lie and pretend to be town. And although I’m still nervous about looking like an idiot, I’m not worried about making mistakes as I have nothing to hide.

Do I? You have 1 game in and it was as scum and you got lynched day 2 after your partner got lynched day 1. I dont think that you have enough chops yet to tell me that this is definitely your town game because its not like you have a scum game down yet. Your first game as scum was kind of a disaster. Not your fault just was. So why would you play here as scum the same way you did there. This could be your town game, or this could be your scum game version 2.0 after a first game blow out.

[Formerfish]

Well, I come out of page 30 feeling pretty tired of FF and Quick going at each other, sort of moving towards them both being town but don't have any super strongly feelings about it. The way Quick just transitioned from that into talking about his reads felt genuine, I think.

@FF @Quick if you two could try to minimize interactions with each other that would be pretty helpful. I really don't want this game to get bogged down by conflict between you two, especially not after I'm dead and not around to put a stop to it.

I don't know if we need to be sent to separate corners, I can keep it civil. Im not ever not going to push a scum read because of AtE, ill just do it with more of a clinical vibe.

[OkaPoka]

TRINITY! I need some quotes in which you think I've made some bad responses to some questions posed by others that you find so horrible. I also want you to go in detail why my case on you is weak.

in case this gets ignored, @TRINITY

I will do some clarification, in this post:

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

You mark me as a scum lean because of first I have an alleged weak case against you and I have also responded poorly to questions other people have posed.
So what I want is for you to first, explain why you believe that my case is terrible and scummy.
I also want you, more importantly, to quote some of these poor responses I have made in response to other questions and I want you to explain why each of these poor answers are so garbage and thus scummy.

[Formerfish]

Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory

I've never liked this line of thinking. If something is scummy its scummy. If someone is doing something scummy then they need to be voted so they dont do it again. I kinda feel like when people doing something too scummy to be scum that they are setting us up for a future time where they as scum do just that. I dont know if someone needs to be town for my theory to make sense, Its more of a thought exercise at this point.

[OkaPoka]

I really don't understand what is so scummy/controversial behind the idea that it doesn't really matter if you are scumread a bit as long as you can find a better lynch.

[Formerfish]

Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia

Where did this come from? You mentioned him like twice and I didnt get the vibe you were sorting him into the scum bin with either mention.

The fact that you vote flicker in the post after has me a little miffed with your conversation towards Oka about slowing down. Its like you just did the thing you told him not to.

[Formerfish]

I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me.

I don't really get this. My reads aren't necessarily better than anyone else's.

I guess that was more for me, since i tr you, I would hope that our reads would mesh eventually. They dont need to, but it helps.

[nancy]

Less than three?

Is a loveheart.

So you dont want me to interact with you directly to help you read me, you want to do it more passively as an observer with how I interact with everyone else?

Um, no, I'm saying that it doesn't help me if I say I have x,y,z reasons why I think you could be mafia and you make a post at me detailing all the reasons why that's wrong. If you are doing something like not talking about your reads and that is concerning to me, you can address my concern by talking about your reads or maybe briefly telling me why you haven't talked about your reads, but it's not helpful for me if you write an essay about why it's wrong of me to scumread you for not talking about your reads.

I am more than willing to discuss anything in specific that you would like to. Ask me a question and lets see where we end up.

I mean, I already did this in 562. Read the last paragraph again?

This is the whole point of why I'm saying the thing about how you address my read on you. Your response was to give me a bunch of words about yourself, which is nice, but... doesn't really help me and sort of misses the point.

[nancy]

Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia

Where did this come from? You mentioned him like twice and I didnt get the vibe you were sorting him into the scum bin with either mention.

The fact that you vote flicker in the post after has me a little miffed with your conversation towards Oka about slowing down. Its like you just did the thing you told him not to.

Uhm? They are both below null for me, and I can only vote one of them. I don't think you understood what I was saying to Oka if you think being conflicted about where I want to vote is similar to that?

I need more words from WhyMafia about how his read on Oka changed and why he dropped his push to go onto Eragon because the way that played out feels like he was a spinning top that lost momentum and clinked to a halt against the tabletop and the sound of the clink is the sound I hear in my dreams when I think about scum.

[Formerfish]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

Is this a legit question? Are you asking nancy the player or nancy the IC?

Yes and this is directed towards nancy the player.

as for FF im pretty sure he is town because interactions and the fact that he left my wagon for a pretty low potential wagon but I have still have a running theory on reading him that is going to need more time to resolve itself

i guess i dont really make sense, at that time i was thinking ff had a good chance of being scum, then i thought to myself there are more scummy people ahead of him so meh probably not

You had mentioned something that either was playing out or could play out that would have helped you figure out my alignment. Care to talk about that more?

It is still a work in progress.

Why do you care about her opinion as a player on defensive tells?

And ok, id ask more questions but i feel like if there was part you could talk about now without compromising the test that you would have said what you could.

[nancy]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

[Formerfish]

I mean, I already did this in 562. Read the last paragraph again?

I must have missed that in the paragraph you mentioned. Right now im still in info gathering mode. Soon ill be able to dive into some isos and come up with more fleshed out reads. Thats another reason why my play might seem erratic in nature. I kinda bounce from place to place seeing what I can find before moving on to the next. Just give me time to get there and youll see it.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

[nancy]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

What did it for me with the townread was how honest/genuine she felt when responding to concerns on her.

[IcemanCh]

Honestly, I don't care or want to know about you debunking anything about my scum read on you. If I think you're scum why would you say anything truthful to me?

What I do care about is how everyone else reacts to my reads and debunks or proves it. I also care about your reads on other people and how you prove them.

I really strongly agree with this approach, as long as you don't let confirmation bias bleed into your read and start assuming that you're right and that everything that your scumread is saying and doing is a lie. Always keep an open mind and be ready to reassess if something happens to challenge your worlds.

Of course but, you don't really say that directly to someone when you're scum reading them do you?

[nancy]

Gotta admit though it's pretty discomforting how she just keeps missing stuff in thread. Like, this keeps happening. Are you just not reading every post or something Trinity?

Nancy, I was referring to what I’d said about FF in this post.

Okay, so you think he's town because you think that Oka is mafia and that FF and Oka are never mafia partners?

What if you're wrong, and Oka is town?

@Trinity

[IcemanCh]

I don't think I could possibly disagree with this sentiment more than I do.

Your most important job as town, the number 1 thing on your to-do list, your first and highest priority, if you do one thing and absolutely nothing else in the game, should be to clear yourself as town to the rest of town.

You don't have to catch all the mafia. You don't have to catch ANY mafia. If you clear yourself as town, if the rest of town is able to see you as town, you've done your job, that's good enough.

[

I don't know if it matter but, for the record I disagree. I know.... a newb telling and experienced player they disagree. My first priority is to lynch scum. If that requires that I get lynched so that town can get valuable information so be it. I'm totally down with getting lynched as long as it results in exposing scum. That is my goal.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

What did it for me with the townread was how honest/genuine she felt when responding to concerns on her.

I got the opposite out of that. Like when she blew up at Oak with his question when he took words directly from her post and she didnt put that together when what she had posted about him. Like when you said Less than three I looked throughout my post to try and figure out what you were referring to. When Oka said what he did I would have gone back through my post to see what he was talking about, not jump down his throat.

[OkaPoka]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

I would actually have to completely disagree with this being a scum mindset, because this isn't how I would play scum. I just recently played a newbie-scum game if you want to meta dive me and verify this.
Scum wants to dodge lynches yes that is true, but scum also aren't playing to merely just nearly avoid being the most scummy because that is simply a risk not worth taking. People in this game are rarely consistent and they are also rarely completely rational players, thus in order to dodge a lynch, the primary goal of scum would be not to appear a bit more townie, but the most townie because otherwise the swing of town might still end up with a lynch on a null!OkaPoka.

Yeah it is inherent as town to want to be townread, but it isn't nor should it be the primary concern of town to be the towniest of them all. That's scum wincon, scum doesn't need lynches to win, they just need to make sure town either mislynches, or fails to lynch and they can solve the game based on NK's. Meanwhile town has to make sure finding scum is their primary concern because ultimately without successful lynches, town loses every time. We are also playing a semi-openish setup that does not give a guarantee on investigative roles to help sole the game, nor do we have town killing roles to allow town to not need lynches to win.

In an extreme vacuum, a town that has their primary concern in making the appearance of being townie will lose every game. There needs to be at least some people who are making their whole effort hunting scum because we can't just rely on PRs to win this game for us. In a game in which town has their primary concern of being townie, they will lose because scum are also doing the same, and it makes the job of scumhunting much more difficult because to an extent, everyone is acting rather than being themselves. When everyone is composed and trying to act like town, they are acting rather than trying to win, and then the game will devolve into who can be the best actor.

Literally nobody wants to be scumread in this game, and it's not like I don't care about being scumread, it's just not worth as much time to act town when I could be selfishly developing reads on others and trying to figure things out.

The difference between scum!Oka and town!Oka is town!Oka is being genuine while scum!Oka wants to come across as genuine. I can see why you want to help me out by telling me why I should try and make an effort to appear more townie, but I think that can ultimately be somewhat detrimental advice as town shouldn't concern themselves with acting town. I find it more difficult as scum to develop genuine reads not only because I know everyone's alignment and I have ulterior motives, but because while I am in the act of appearing town, I have to tone down the aggressiveness in developing my reads and challenging other people's ideas.

I think it is a given that everyone reacts more hostile-y to people who scumread them and are pushing them, thus then the optimal play if your end goal is to be townie is to never push, never interact on a deeper level, and never challenge other people's reads. By caring so much about other people's reads on you, what ends up happening is you simply ask superficial questions and lend support to whoever you want to suck up to. You let other people game solve for you.

Okay and there is a point behind all of this, it's not just to respond to nancy's assertions.
I think this is exactly what Trinity is doing, she is being superficial and wants to give off a vibe of genuine townieness.
I don't think I need to quote examples, if you want them I will, but a lot of her posts feel like they won't go anywhere. She is overly nice with people, which could just be her personality, but what I fear is she is trying to play nice to get townread. She is rubbing shoulders with nancy(the obvtown player) a lot, and to an extent it's useless. Let's examine the game from her perspective.

Most people are marking nancy as town, she is too, obvious by 671 if you want an example, so why does she keep interacting with nancy so much? There is no need to develop reads on people you so solidly read town when you have others in which you have giant question marks over. Unless you want to inflate your post count, unless you don't want to give offense to others by hinting that you may be hostile to them, unless you don't actually care about developing genuine reads, you just want the obv town to like you and not lynch you.

Look at trinity's questions she is posing and attempting to make an attempt at interacting with others, I mean does she have a larger path with these questions? Does she have a greater point she wants to prove or expand on? I am getting the vibe that most of her questions directed towards people don't really have much direction to go, they serve no real purpose other than to make herself seem more townie, because that is her primary concern as scum.

Look all the posts Trinity has made, maybe one or two posts have some genuine direction in which they can go and she can develop upon. If we are being generous.
But most of these posts are either her trying to be friendly, or her trying to clarify herself and say look at me I am so townie XOXO.
I mean does trinity even have a desire to solve this game? I'm getting the feeling the answer to that is no.
We'll see though.

[IcemanCh]

I can't make heads or tails of the Flicker post. I can't tell if it's just that she's a newb and is reading into things in a really strange way or if it's that she has a ton of TMI and I don't think I'm in the right frame of mind to try right now.

@Flicker I really need you to be more present. You have less posts than the mod right now and that's really not okay. I really need more from you here because I think you might be mafia and there's just enough for me to go off to see that you're town if you are here. You don't have to make wallposts. Your posts don't have to be truthbombs or full of gems. Just a bit of thread presence and sharing your thoughts on things that are happening would go a long way.


Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia but I do need to go over FF properly and figure out my read on him and I'm super wiped and can't do it now.

It's funny you point that out... I didn't even notice that Flicker had only a few posts. Usually I pick up on that. Is that scum playing? Post big enough content to look active but, actually skating under radar?