Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[Micc]

Votecount 1.14

OkaPoka (2) -

TrinityNZ, IcemanCh

Formerfish (1) -

Quick

TrinityNZ (1) -

OkaPoka

Eragon (1) -

WhyMafia

Quick (1) -

Formerfish

Flicker (1) -

nancy

WhyMafia (1) -

Flicker

Not Voting (1) -

Eragon

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

[nancy]

Meh. I guess I shouldn't be townreading Trinity as strongly as I am.

[OkaPoka]

@everyone if you aren't scumreading trinity explain to me why, I'll try respond.

[IcemanCh]

From my perspective, I don't care that much about being town read, either. I mean, it sucks to be scum read, but if I get mislynched, my alignment will be revealed and people will look back over my posts, and if I've hunted well enough, maybe I can still help solve the game. I also feel like trying so hard to be town read can be a little scummy, because I feel like scum have even more motivation to be town read than town - if they can get locktowned, they've basically won the game (I would know, this is basically how town lost my first newbie game). So, yeah, it's important to be town read, but some people have a hard time being town read and are better at hunting.

Rather than trying to funnel everyone into doing this one thing, why not encourage people to play the best version of their own games? I mean, there's no one right way to play mafia, right?

I really like this post. It's exactly how I think town should play. Not defensive. We don't care if we get lynched as long as scum get's it in the end. Town should be open, honest, and straight forward in order to help everyone town read them and find scum. Scum have to lie and make things up and pretend. Eventually they will screw up. A town doesn't have to lie and so has nothing to screw up on.

[OkaPoka]

@iceman read on trinity?

[Quick]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

What did it for me with the townread was how honest/genuine she felt when responding to concerns on her.

Meta and stuff.

[nancy]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

I would actually have to completely disagree with this being a scum mindset, because this isn't how I would play scum. I just recently played a newbie-scum game if you want to meta dive me and verify this.
Scum wants to dodge lynches yes that is true, but scum also aren't playing to merely just nearly avoid being the most scummy because that is simply a risk not worth taking. People in this game are rarely consistent and they are also rarely completely rational players, thus in order to dodge a lynch, the primary goal of scum would be not to appear a bit more townie, but the most townie because otherwise the swing of town might still end up with a lynch on a null!OkaPoka.

Yeah it is inherent as town to want to be townread, but it isn't nor should it be the primary concern of town to be the towniest of them all. That's scum wincon, scum doesn't need lynches to win, they just need to make sure town either mislynches, or fails to lynch and they can solve the game based on NK's. Meanwhile town has to make sure finding scum is their primary concern because ultimately without successful lynches, town loses every time. We are also playing a semi-openish setup that does not give a guarantee on investigative roles to help sole the game, nor do we have town killing roles to allow town to not need lynches to win.

In an extreme vacuum, a town that has their primary concern in making the appearance of being townie will lose every game. There needs to be at least some people who are making their whole effort hunting scum because we can't just rely on PRs to win this game for us. In a game in which town has their primary concern of being townie, they will lose because scum are also doing the same, and it makes the job of scumhunting much more difficult because to an extent, everyone is acting rather than being themselves. When everyone is composed and trying to act like town, they are acting rather than trying to win, and then the game will devolve into who can be the best actor.

Literally nobody wants to be scumread in this game, and it's not like I don't care about being scumread, it's just not worth as much time to act town when I could be selfishly developing reads on others and trying to figure things out.

The difference between scum!Oka and town!Oka is town!Oka is being genuine while scum!Oka wants to come across as genuine. I can see why you want to help me out by telling me why I should try and make an effort to appear more townie, but I think that can ultimately be somewhat detrimental advice as town shouldn't concern themselves with acting town. I find it more difficult as scum to develop genuine reads not only because I know everyone's alignment and I have ulterior motives, but because while I am in the act of appearing town, I have to tone down the aggressiveness in developing my reads and challenging other people's ideas.

I think it is a given that everyone reacts more hostile-y to people who scumread them and are pushing them, thus then the optimal play if your end goal is to be townie is to never push, never interact on a deeper level, and never challenge other people's reads. By caring so much about other people's reads on you, what ends up happening is you simply ask superficial questions and lend support to whoever you want to suck up to. You let other people game solve for you.

Okay and there is a point behind all of this, it's not just to respond to nancy's assertions.
I think this is exactly what Trinity is doing, she is being superficial and wants to give off a vibe of genuine townieness.
I don't think I need to quote examples, if you want them I will, but a lot of her posts feel like they won't go anywhere. She is overly nice with people, which could just be her personality, but what I fear is she is trying to play nice to get townread. She is rubbing shoulders with nancy(the obvtown player) a lot, and to an extent it's useless. Let's examine the game from her perspective.

Most people are marking nancy as town, she is too, obvious by 671 if you want an example, so why does she keep interacting with nancy so much? There is no need to develop reads on people you so solidly read town when you have others in which you have giant question marks over. Unless you want to inflate your post count, unless you don't want to give offense to others by hinting that you may be hostile to them, unless you don't actually care about developing genuine reads, you just want the obv town to like you and not lynch you.

Look at trinity's questions she is posing and attempting to make an attempt at interacting with others, I mean does she have a larger path with these questions? Does she have a greater point she wants to prove or expand on? I am getting the vibe that most of her questions directed towards people don't really have much direction to go, they serve no real purpose other than to make herself seem more townie, because that is her primary concern as scum.

Look all the posts Trinity has made, maybe one or two posts have some genuine direction in which they can go and she can develop upon. If we are being generous.
But most of these posts are either her trying to be friendly, or her trying to clarify herself and say look at me I am so townie XOXO.
I mean does trinity even have a desire to solve this game? I'm getting the feeling the answer to that is no.
We'll see though.

Holy shit.

Okay so, first of all, you misunderstood what I meant by clearing yourself. I wasn't saying you should be "acting town". Probably the most important way that town clears themselves is by scumhunting. But if the way that you're scumhunting makes no sense and you have no real process, then no matter how much scumhunting you do, it's all going to be indistinguishable from scum faking scumhunting.

I'll do a reread of Trinity.

[IcemanCh]

I'm gonna be honest, the first time I read this it really hurt my feelings. I said in my intro post that I'm lower activity and tend towards wallposts, and I feel like you're just attacking me based on my play style and the fact that I can't post when you're around (which is basically 100% when I'm asleep). I'm also not trying to post "truthbombs" or anything like that, I'm just trying to be as transparent as possible.

FWIW, my posting window right now is between 10 AM CDT and 2 PM CDT, and the only person who's been around during that time is Oka, whom I've engaged with a little - clearly not enough for you, but I am trying. I guess I could also try posting in the evening, when Formerfish and Quick seem to always get on, but usually I'm busy or I've depleted my energy for playing mafia earlier in the day. I can make more of an effort to break up my wall posts into more manageable chunks, but I'm not gonna upend my life for this, so if you just wanna policy lynch me for not playing well enough or whatever, go ahead.

Now, I feel bad.

If you're town keep doing you. No worries will figure it out.

I do think it's kind of messed up to bring in the sad face. To me that feels like a scummy thing to do. I always relate emotional appeals to scum and logic to town. So to me this is hey back off cause if you look deep I'm scum. So..... if you're town keep posting the way you are. I like wall posts and TBH we all have to post when we can.

[nancy]

Meta and stuff.

[OkaPoka]

Spoiler:

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

I would actually have to completely disagree with this being a scum mindset, because this isn't how I would play scum. I just recently played a newbie-scum game if you want to meta dive me and verify this.
Scum wants to dodge lynches yes that is true, but scum also aren't playing to merely just nearly avoid being the most scummy because that is simply a risk not worth taking. People in this game are rarely consistent and they are also rarely completely rational players, thus in order to dodge a lynch, the primary goal of scum would be not to appear a bit more townie, but the most townie because otherwise the swing of town might still end up with a lynch on a null!OkaPoka.

Yeah it is inherent as town to want to be townread, but it isn't nor should it be the primary concern of town to be the towniest of them all. That's scum wincon, scum doesn't need lynches to win, they just need to make sure town either mislynches, or fails to lynch and they can solve the game based on NK's. Meanwhile town has to make sure finding scum is their primary concern because ultimately without successful lynches, town loses every time. We are also playing a semi-openish setup that does not give a guarantee on investigative roles to help sole the game, nor do we have town killing roles to allow town to not need lynches to win.

In an extreme vacuum, a town that has their primary concern in making the appearance of being townie will lose every game. There needs to be at least some people who are making their whole effort hunting scum because we can't just rely on PRs to win this game for us. In a game in which town has their primary concern of being townie, they will lose because scum are also doing the same, and it makes the job of scumhunting much more difficult because to an extent, everyone is acting rather than being themselves. When everyone is composed and trying to act like town, they are acting rather than trying to win, and then the game will devolve into who can be the best actor.

Literally nobody wants to be scumread in this game, and it's not like I don't care about being scumread, it's just not worth as much time to act town when I could be selfishly developing reads on others and trying to figure things out.

The difference between scum!Oka and town!Oka is town!Oka is being genuine while scum!Oka wants to come across as genuine. I can see why you want to help me out by telling me why I should try and make an effort to appear more townie, but I think that can ultimately be somewhat detrimental advice as town shouldn't concern themselves with acting town. I find it more difficult as scum to develop genuine reads not only because I know everyone's alignment and I have ulterior motives, but because while I am in the act of appearing town, I have to tone down the aggressiveness in developing my reads and challenging other people's ideas.

I think it is a given that everyone reacts more hostile-y to people who scumread them and are pushing them, thus then the optimal play if your end goal is to be townie is to never push, never interact on a deeper level, and never challenge other people's reads. By caring so much about other people's reads on you, what ends up happening is you simply ask superficial questions and lend support to whoever you want to suck up to. You let other people game solve for you.

Okay and there is a point behind all of this, it's not just to respond to nancy's assertions.
I think this is exactly what Trinity is doing, she is being superficial and wants to give off a vibe of genuine townieness.
I don't think I need to quote examples, if you want them I will, but a lot of her posts feel like they won't go anywhere. She is overly nice with people, which could just be her personality, but what I fear is she is trying to play nice to get townread. She is rubbing shoulders with nancy(the obvtown player) a lot, and to an extent it's useless. Let's examine the game from her perspective.

Most people are marking nancy as town, she is too, obvious by 671 if you want an example, so why does she keep interacting with nancy so much? There is no need to develop reads on people you so solidly read town when you have others in which you have giant question marks over. Unless you want to inflate your post count, unless you don't want to give offense to others by hinting that you may be hostile to them, unless you don't actually care about developing genuine reads, you just want the obv town to like you and not lynch you.

Look at trinity's questions she is posing and attempting to make an attempt at interacting with others, I mean does she have a larger path with these questions? Does she have a greater point she wants to prove or expand on? I am getting the vibe that most of her questions directed towards people don't really have much direction to go, they serve no real purpose other than to make herself seem more townie, because that is her primary concern as scum.

Look all the posts Trinity has made, maybe one or two posts have some genuine direction in which they can go and she can develop upon. If we are being generous.
But most of these posts are either her trying to be friendly, or her trying to clarify herself and say look at me I am so townie XOXO.
I mean does trinity even have a desire to solve this game? I'm getting the feeling the answer to that is no.
We'll see though.

Holy shit.

Okay so, first of all, you misunderstood what I meant by clearing yourself. I wasn't saying you should be "acting town". Probably the most important way that town clears themselves is by scumhunting. But if the way that you're scumhunting makes no sense and you have no real process, then no matter how much scumhunting you do, it's all going to be indistinguishable from scum faking scumhunting.

I'll do a reread of Trinity.

My point about trinity still stands though.

[IcemanCh]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

You have a point. She wasn't as confident or flippant about things. I don't know though cause it kind of makes me want to say trinity is town.

[OkaPoka]

Meta reads on new players with a sample size of 1 or 2 is dumb.

People, especially newer players who are still adjusting, are extremely prone to change especially in face of such a powerful defeat.

If you want to look at my first game, I acted a lot differently than I do now.

[Quick]

873

There is some ideas I agree with here, but the point of the game is completely missed. Rather than detail in a pbpa, I'm just going to give a simple statement and let people ponder that.

Playing as Scum is about lynching X amount of Townies. Playing as Town is 75% creating content and 25% solving.

[OkaPoka]

Scum don't need lynches to win, town does.

[Formerfish]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

You have a point. She wasn't as confident or flippant about things. I don't know though cause it kind of makes me want to say trinity is town.

Im saying that we cant say this is her town game because this isnt her scum game. Right now her scum game is anything because of how her first game went. She isnt going to be doing the same thing that got her killed day 2. It just feels like it went to far in the direction of trying to look town.

Ninja Oka- Thats what I am trying to say, we cant say that just because this is different that it is her town game.

[IcemanCh]

@iceman read on trinity?

I go back and forth. It's difficult cause I've played with her in my last game so it's kind of tainted you know.

In isolation to this game I would have serious concerns about her being scum. She snagged on to FF as scum and tunneled him without giving anyone a real reason as to why. It's like she just picked someone and went with it.

However, it would be super gutsy for a scum to go after someone so active and in the mix of things. It would be a super difficult mislynch. There's way easier lynches.

Also, bringing the other game experience into it and I would say this is probably her town play. If it's not she's being coached really well from behind the scenes.

Does that make sense?

Basically, I'm stuck with a slight town read on Trinity and I'm not sure how to see it as more town or less town at the moment.

[IcemanCh]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

You have a point. She wasn't as confident or flippant about things. I don't know though cause it kind of makes me want to say trinity is town.

Im saying that we cant say this is her town game because this isnt her scum game. Right now her scum game is anything because of how her first game went. She isnt going to be doing the same thing that got her killed day 2. It just feels like it went to far in the direction of trying to look town.

Ninja Oka- Thats what I am trying to say, we cant say that just because this is different that it is her town game.

I get what you're saying.

I was more agreeing that her play is different here.

[OkaPoka]

@iceman read on trinity?

I go back and forth. It's difficult cause I've played with her in my last game so it's kind of tainted you know.

In isolation to this game I would have serious concerns about her being scum. She snagged on to FF as scum and tunneled him without giving anyone a real reason as to why. It's like she just picked someone and went with it.

However, it would be super gutsy for a scum to go after someone so active and in the mix of things. It would be a super difficult mislynch. There's way easier lynches.

Also, bringing the other game experience into it and I would say this is probably her town play. If it's not she's being coached really well from behind the scenes.

Does that make sense?

Basically, I'm stuck with a slight town read on Trinity and I'm not sure how to see it as more town or less town at the moment.

Is it gutsy though? She kinda voiced her opinion, and solidified her vote supporting anyone else who did the same.

But when pressed for evidence she said she did an iso and decided FF was town.

It would be gutsy if she produced evidence and went ham at FF but she didn't, she kinda skated by with a scumread.

[IcemanCh]

How is it that we have no wagons? Everyone has a vote...... this is a nutso game. Scum is pulling a fast one on us.

So who's been convincing us to move our votes around and reassess our read so that we don't form wagons?

There's more town here then scum we should be able to start coming to a decision.

[IcemanCh]

@iceman read on trinity?

I go back and forth. It's difficult cause I've played with her in my last game so it's kind of tainted you know.

In isolation to this game I would have serious concerns about her being scum. She snagged on to FF as scum and tunneled him without giving anyone a real reason as to why. It's like she just picked someone and went with it.

However, it would be super gutsy for a scum to go after someone so active and in the mix of things. It would be a super difficult mislynch. There's way easier lynches.

Also, bringing the other game experience into it and I would say this is probably her town play. If it's not she's being coached really well from behind the scenes.

Does that make sense?



Basically, I'm stuck with a slight town read on Trinity and I'm not sure how to see it as more town or less town at the moment.

Is it gutsy though? She kinda voiced her opinion, and solidified her vote supporting anyone else who did the same.

But when pressed for evidence she said she did an iso and decided FF was town.

It would be gutsy if she produced evidence and went ham at FF but she didn't, she kinda skated by with a scumread.

I meant it was gutsy in that she went after him at all.

[OkaPoka]

I'm saying its not gutsy to say "you are scum!" and then not push it or really do anything much about it.

[IcemanCh]

If we look at pure name recogintion and participation. Would anyone disagree that Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia float to the top as possible scum?

FF has been super engaged and consistent.
Trinity has been floating around but, in the mix with everyone else.
Oka has been crazy invovled even if I have a feeling he's scum.
Nancy.... I mean do we need more?
Quick.... well I don't like him for town. I think he's scum but, he's engaged a lot.


So does it seem odd that if I had to award participation awards I wouldn't give them to Eragon, Flicker, and WhyMafia?

They appear long enough to give reads and then gone.


Maybe, I'm nuts.

[nancy]

I'm gonna be honest, the first time I read this it really hurt my feelings. I said in my intro post that I'm lower activity and tend towards wallposts, and I feel like you're just attacking me based on my play style and the fact that I can't post when you're around (which is basically 100% when I'm asleep). I'm also not trying to post "truthbombs" or anything like that, I'm just trying to be as transparent as possible.

FWIW, my posting window right now is between 10 AM CDT and 2 PM CDT, and the only person who's been around during that time is Oka, whom I've engaged with a little - clearly not enough for you, but I am trying. I guess I could also try posting in the evening, when Formerfish and Quick seem to always get on, but usually I'm busy or I've depleted my energy for playing mafia earlier in the day. I can make more of an effort to break up my wall posts into more manageable chunks, but I'm not gonna upend my life for this, so if you just wanna policy lynch me for not playing well enough or whatever, go ahead.

I'm sorry it hurt your feelings.

I'm gonna spoiler this because many words.

Spoiler:

Your activity level is only one of my concerns, and not even a significant one. And what you have to understand is that part of this forum thing means that you can interact with anyone, at any time, regardless of whether you're both online together or not. You don't need to just talk to the people who are online at the same time as you. Each post you make can be read hours and days after it has been made.

I understand that you think you've projected town really well, but it's not really fair to everyone else if you expect them to just get there on you as well. Like, mafia is hard. It's hard to figure out other people's alignments. Everyone gets it wrong, all the time. If you get upset at people for not knowing that you're town just because you put in effort, just because you were transparent, you're never going to survive the game emotionally. Almost everyone in this game has been putting in effort. But not all of us are town.

Transparency helps, a lot, but it's not unfakeable and it takes a larger sample size than just a dozen posts. You can't just be transparent and expect everyone to lock you as town immediately as a result. That's why I asked you for more. We're about half way through the dayphase and you have a couple handfuls of posts and that's not enough.

That's also why I said you don't need to make such huge posts. It seems to me like you're spending a huge amount of effort on one post, and my advice is to try to spend less effort on each post so that you can get more content out. Your posts don't have to be perfect. You don't have to cross every t and dot every i. You don't need to make 50 posts or even 30. But like, 7 posts half-way through the dayphase is just not enough.

The thing is, yes, transparency is towny. It's how you get people to understand you, and if town understand each other they should hopefully townread each other. But it's also a lot easier for mafia to fake being transparent if all they ever do is make big wallposts. Mafia can carefully craft nice, big, perfect wallposts that have nothing missing and look extremely town, posts with so many words that no one wants to read them anymore and just writes them off as town. And having that kind of thread presence is a lot easier for them, because they don't have to have a hugely active hand in what is actually happening in the game, they can just curate these mini masterpieces and sit back and let town eat themselves alive.

Does that make sense to you?

[IcemanCh]

I'm saying its not gutsy to say "you are scum!" and then not push it or really do anything much about it.

I dunno.... If I were scum I would be pushing someone everyone else is pushing or finding the weakest one to push on. I"m lazy. I'll go for easy everyday.

[OkaPoka]

Except my point is Trinity's participation is superficial and ultimately fake.