Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[IcemanCh]

Except my point is Trinity's participation is superficial and ultimately fake.

I dunno. I don't see it.

I see her as newb and hard to read because of it.

[OkaPoka]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

[Micc]

Votecount 1.15

OkaPoka (2) -

TrinityNZ, IcemanCh

Formerfish (1) -

Quick

TrinityNZ (1) -

OkaPoka

Eragon (1) -

WhyMafia

Quick (1) -

Formerfish

Flicker (1) -

nancy

WhyMafia (1) -

Flicker

Not Voting (1) -

Eragon

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

[IcemanCh]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

[IcemanCh]

I 100% get that I'm letting the last game bleed into this one.

[OkaPoka]

No please just go ahead and iso her and then take note on what posts possibly could help her develop her reads vs posts that don't actually need to exist.

[nancy]

I'm saying its not gutsy to say "you are scum!" and then not push it or really do anything much about it.

I can kind of see it two ways.

One is that she's mafia and when she tried to go and scumcase him she just couldn't find anything and gave up on the push. The process there of "fake scumread, try to talk about why, see only towniness because of TMI" is a fairly typical one for newb scum. It would also make sense for her to move to Oka given that thread temperature has been moving that way.

The other is just that she genuinely changed her mind. She went through FF's ISO with a vague idea of why she was scumreading him before, kind of ending up not really seeing the things she thought she saw before, and gave up on her push.

And as it is, the way she sort of admitted to being flaky and such when she moved over, it felt kiiiinda genuine to me? I don't think my reasoning for reading it that way is great or anything. I don't personally see anything either way from her that's pointing to it either being blatantly fake or honest. This is why I asked her the question I did, which I'm still waiting for an answer for.

[OkaPoka]

Sure she can change her mind but it doesn't change the fact that what she did with Formerfish wasn't gutsy thus shouldn't be a reason to townread her.

[Quick]

Scum don't need lynches to win, town does.

You are sorely mistaken.

Playing as Town is about being process oriented, not results oriented. Scum, on the other hand, is about being results oriented and not process oriented. Why? Because Town cannot win by luck i.e. Random chance. To back this up with something very substantial, games are balanced around the idea that Town does better than Rand. Without any PRs it takes 11 Town and 2 (or 1, I forget) Scum for Town to break even lynching randomly. The fundamental rule of thumb for this social deduction game is that it is Scum's game to lose. Scum

should

have a much better record than Town with the kind of setups that are traditionally played, but, site depending, it usually breaks even or within, I want to say, a 10% spread. MS has typically been known for Poor Town Play/Good Scum Play because the win rates for Scum on this site I want to say are between 57.5% and 65%. That's pretty horrendous for Town. The cause of this is due to PR's being too heavily favored on this site which causes an overreliance on them and detracts away from good old-fashioned Scumhunting. You see, Scumhunting is the Process that needs to be correct in order for Town to win. Results don't come quickly for Town and Scumhunting is a game of diminishing returns. Therefore, you need more content then solving ability in games otherwise Town would never figure out anything.

IMHO, this site is in a very very bad way in terms of Town pay. It's people that think this game is about solving that is the problem. There are always going to be people in the game who can solve. Having players who create meaningful content is a lot more difficult to come by. I have my own theories on what I think content is and I'm not going to get into it now, but basically, creating content is about stirring the pot and giving people something to chew on. That's something that a lot of players have no idea of the significance of. One only needs to look at this game to see the positive effects of Scumhunting.. Look no further than nancy. There's a reason I pointed out that Ice's process was wrong saying nancy was Scummy for pushing every which direction. In fact, that is the definition of what you need to see from Town members in a game for Town to win.

/class dismissed

[nancy]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

Um.

Talk to me about how you went from saying that you had a slight townread on her a few posts ago to being fairly convinced she's a mislynch now?

[OkaPoka]

No I'm saying in a technical way the pressure is not on scum to lynch, its on town.

If you played a game in which lynches never happened, scum wins because nightkills and elimination.

Scum don't need lynches to happen because lynches and thus the flip is the most beneficial tool for town. Beyond PRs, lynches provide confirmation in alignment and give the town the tool to do post-lynch analysis on people. Without lynches and the flip, town cannot more deeply analyze how and why the wagon formed, who is merely there for the bandwagon, who is bussing, who is trying to detract attention, who is being honest, and who is being dishonest.

I mean if think about it, the reason why we always lynch day 1 when technically there is no information is to create some hard facts we can go by. Otherwise it would be a game of wifom if we wanted to simply analyze nk's. scum have no real pressure to lynch because lynches are not part of a scum wincon, scum can dispose of town in two ways while town has only one way.

[IcemanCh]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

Um.

Talk to me about how you went from saying that you had a slight townread on her a few posts ago to being fairly convinced she's a mislynch now?

Maybe, I'm stating it wrong. I have a slight townread on her so that would mean she's a mislynch to me if we lynched her. Why else would I lean her town if I didn't think she should not be lynched?

[Eragon]

so I have like 30 minutes open rn, is there anything important for me to skim or do?

[nancy]

Am spoilering this post because IC stuff.

Spoiler: @Oka @Flicker

sorry isn't the point on scumhunt focused play so you don't end up in lylo having mislynched a bunch of people with 2 mafia alive?

i could see the advantage of townhunt and then PoE, but then I feel like there would be a dependency on investigative roles to solve.

I was talking about a hypothetical worst-cases scenario where you forego townhunting. I'm not saying you shouldn't scumhunt, that's ludicrous. I'm saying that townreads should be the foundation for your gamesolving. They're more reliable, there's less room for error, and bouncing back from mislynches and bad situations is easier when you have a solid town core.

From my perspective, I don't care that much about being town read, either. I mean, it sucks to be scum read, but if I get mislynched, my alignment will be revealed and people will look back over my posts, and if I've hunted well enough, maybe I can still help solve the game. I also feel like trying so hard to be town read can be a little scummy, because I feel like scum have even more motivation to be town read than town - if they can get locktowned, they've basically won the game (I would know, this is basically how town lost my first newbie game). So, yeah, it's important to be town read, but some people have a hard time being town read and are better at hunting.

Rather than trying to funnel everyone into doing this one thing, why not encourage people to play the best version of their own games? I mean, there's no one right way to play mafia, right?

I don't think I expressed myself well enough, sorry. I touched on this in an earlier post to Oka but clearing yourself, projecting town, isn't about acting or doing things that look towny. The way we clear ourselves is by doing our best to solve the game. What I was saying was that it doesn't matter if your reads are accurate. You shouldn't stress about whether or not you're bestest scumhunter ever in the history of scumhunters. That just leads to a kind of toxic mentality and playstyle, I think, and there's a looooooot of it here on mafiascum.

You should absolutely care if you're mislynched or not. You really really should. You should fight against it with everything you have, if for no other reason than that

mafia want you to be mislynched

.

Every mislynch puts town closer to losing the game, and honestly, 95% of the time? No one is going to put much consideration into anything you've done after you're dead. When you're dead, you're gone, you're not in the game anymore, people move on. Sure, they'll look at how people pushed on you, but that's about it. Like, getting yourself lynched just so that other townies can look at how people lynched you and /hopefully/ find scum in there is a hugely hugely mistaken way to approach the game. I realize you weren't saying that, but it's one step from not caring if you're scumread and that.

I'm also not saying you should freak out any time you're being scumread, or that you should be constantly thinking "god I need to get townread I need to get townread". That's not where your focus should be. It should be on finding town and finding mafia. But you should absolutely be aware that other town need to get a townread on you and sometimes they need a lot of help to get there, and you should be doing what you can to help them. (Like being transparent and engaged with the game. Both, not just one or the other.)

[OkaPoka]

@eragon examine trinity for me please
@nancy soooo, opinion on trinity?

[nancy]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

Um.

Talk to me about how you went from saying that you had a slight townread on her a few posts ago to being fairly convinced she's a mislynch now?

Maybe, I'm stating it wrong. I have a slight townread on her so that would mean she's a mislynch to me if we lynched her. Why else would I lean her town if I didn't think she should not be lynched?

Okay, but the way you phrased it feels significant stronger than a slight townread. If she would need to do something majorly scummy to get you to question your townread... that's a pretty strong townread, no?

[Eragon]

@eragon examine trinity for me please
@nancy soooo, opinion on trinity?

ok

[nancy]

@nancy soooo, opinion on trinity?

More nebulous than when I woke up this morning. I haven't had time to go over my read on her again yet.

[nancy]

Oka, I think to a certain extent I'm worried that you might be scumreading Trinity for playstyle.

I'm not really interested in defending her because I have a weak spot for newbies and I can really easily get suckered in by people who seem guileless and are kind of bumbling around, and like, yeah I can look through her posts and see a bunch of ways she could be mafia making the posts that she is. But she very clearly hasn't found her legs as a player yet, regardless of her alignment in this game, and I'm not sure it's fair to expect her to be pushing things and dropping cases all over the place?

How sure are you that you're not getting a false positive on her because she's playing to your expectations and such?

[OkaPoka]

I can't be sure but its my theory that she is scum. If you have a better idea and a better case I'll join you eventually.

[OkaPoka]

And I think your flicker case is bad ngl. It's a pressure vote but I'm not seeing a solid indication of a scumread.


@nancy who are you scumreading?

[nancy]

z

"because she's

not

playing to your expectations"

[OkaPoka]

and in a way flicker isn't playing to your expectations

all our cases have loopholes because its day 1

[nancy]

And I think your flicker case is bad ngl. It's a pressure vote but I'm not seeing a solid indication of a scumread.

I didn't make a Flicker case lmao. Why are you suddenly trying to discredit me?

[nancy]

and in a way flicker isn't playing to your expectations

all our cases have loopholes because its day 1

That's literally not a reason to just ignore anything that might be wrong about your reads.