Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[OkaPoka]

im excited that you voted me tho

let's 1v1

ill case you up

[nancy]

because the only time she interacts with people on a deeper level is when she gets accused of scum.

but if she backs off now, idk, maybe she is just not an aggressive player in general

Yeah, I don't it's realistic that you didn't think of that earlier.

[nancy]

im excited that you voted me tho

let's 1v1

ill case you up

...

Okay.

[nancy]

Make that, um, quite a bit more than 60/40 confidence, I guess, heh.

[nancy]

Fuck man I was really killing myself there for a while. I had no confidence, I even ran through a ton of your past games to try to figure out if there was some god damn secret to your play here that I could find.

I guess I'll just post the rest of my stuff from my IC topic then.

Spoiler: OkaPoka

When I try to follow his early Trinity read, I look at the way he asked her whether she was being sarcastic in 113, then as soon as she replied he dropped townreads on her, me and stan in 122. Really feels like he was just already going to say he townread her there and wanted that exchange with her as an excuse to make it. There's no sense that he actually did work to get there on her and it makes no sense that he would include me and stan in there if he was actually focused on sorting her specifically there.

Then he says that he's having a hard time scumreading anyone, but like, it's not even 200 posts into the game, two slots hadn't even posted at that point, it's just such a premature thought to have there and doesn't feel believable as something he felt as town. His explanations for his reads in 137 don't feel like real things at all. He's literally copy pasted the same reasoning for townreading me and Trinity and calls stan a "rational town player" which just sounds like some kind of nondescript archetype and not an actual description of someone's play. His reasoning for townreading Trinity makes even less sense because it's completely disconnected from his earlier exchange with her, not to mention she hadn't been interacting that much and like, again, it's less than 200 posts into the game, even if "interacting that much" were something to townread, and it isn't, the timing of it makes no sense.

His read on Flicker also flips around and I just struggle to see that being a real read from him. "FF is town because reasons" is literally not even a read. Then he moves and calls Icemand and SA mafia because he's townreading everyone else and like... no, dude, that's not real, not on page 6. Especially not when it doesn't line up with his suspicion of Flicker.

I'm sort of going to skip around from here because his ISO is way too long to go through.

I so didn't like 172, it feels like a fake reaction to FF's content and he hasn't actually engaged with FF at all.

He says he feels lost in 252 but like, he has 5 townreads? I don't understand how anyone can ever feel lost with 5 townreads before the game has barely even started.

The way he backs up his read on FF later, a few times actually, feels a decent amount like TMI bleeding through because the things he's talking about wrt FF aren't very alignment indicative but he's supporting a townread with them. (267, 277, 779)

His scumread on Trinity in 283 contradicts his earlier townread on her and the read just feels super tacky. It feels like he's trying to paint her as scum rather than actually believing that she's mafia. And uh... he's literally held the scumread for nearly 30 pages now without wavering, and his reasoning for scumread her has constantly changed as his old reasoning has become insufficient which I think is really slimy.

321 was icky on a spiritual level. It felt like he started buddying me when he saw that I was pushing back a little on the scumreads on him and wanted to amuse himself with who I thought was mafia rather than actually do anything to solve the game together.

345 he's kind of blatantly admitting to sheeping which is... bad? But maybe not scummy bad, since he's like openly admitting it? Idk. There's a bunch of this kind of attitude all throughout his ISO and it's super super skeevy. (468, 668/683, 919)

The interaction with Trinity in 390 and 392 feels like open wolfing tbh. I don't understand how town thinks any of the things that Oka is thinking in here. Like, he's just openly admitting to throwing shade on her, talking about how he's pushing her because he doesn't want to be lynched, it's just... ugh, god, how is this ever town, it's so bad I think it might just be town but I don't think I can ever let it live because it's just too nasty.

624 just feels way too close to "yeah I'm a wolf but your reasons are wrong" for comfort.

639 feels like a cardboard cut-out of a townie, like, literally don't believe those are ever things that Oka has been feeling in this game.

652 feels like he's trying to project a version of scum behavior specifically to make himself look town for not conforming to it. He makes a lot of posts like this.

684 this is just like. Either some of the worst villager process I have ever seen, or it's just a wolf, and either way, I think you just have to lynch it, because the times where it's a wolf probably outnumber the times where it's a villager.

703 is just another post where I feel like he's pulling stuff out of his ass. Like, he's presented no reason for there to be 2 mafia in that grouping, for all I know he just pulled 2 other names besides Trinity out of a hat and said "hey guys there's scum in here!".

I still think the "as long as there is a better lynch today" part of 785 is scum mindset through and through and the only thing holding me back from taking it as a scumclaim is that he's um, plainly stating it in thread.

The way he jumps out with a random post discrediting me in 920 feels like a moment of scum frustration. I also, um, never wrote a case, which kinda contributes to feeling that he's not real.

And add to that your response to my scumread here which um, literally never comes from town. Sorry dude.

[WhyMafia]

im excited that you voted me tho

let's 1v1

ill case you up

wtf ... ?

[WhyMafia]

Oka are you literally just OMGUS'ing her for voting her when you've called her town all game? Everything you say it literally tainted by the fact that I know you're forcing the Read to happen
VOTE: Oka

You played well, but to me that's a blatant scum slip

[WhyMafia]

OH THATS L-1 BTW

[OkaPoka]

Yeah, I've just been putting off talking about it because I don't feel as confident as I would like to. Here, I'll post part of what I wrote in my IC topic.


I've kind of come around to an Oka scumread at this point. I feel like I both love and hate his play this game. Regardless of his alignment, his posting is so recklessly majestic that it's hard not to appreciate it. I just kind of struggle more and more to see him as town here.

His reads early in the game feel so so fake, it feels like he's going through the motions and just kind of abruptly lands at 3-4 townreads and it's like, I just don't believe that he's done the work to get those reads or genuinely has them. I feel like that's kind of the story of his play here this game. He feels more like a papier-maché of a townie than an actual townie.

The only things kind of pulling me back on this read I think are his level of engagement and the way he's positioned himself on Trinity, but like, on the flip side of that, he's not really seeming to go anywhere with anything, and he's been tunneled on Trinity for ~30 pages now and every time she's addressed his concerns he's just found new reasons to scumread her, and that doesn't feel real to me.

I think, ultimately, there are too moments at this point where he has done something that has felt incredibly fake for me to touch him with even a hint of a townread, and short of getting a scumflip and clearing him via spew or antialignments I just can't see myself believing that he's town.

Like, if I put this slot aside today then I would basically have to be donning a mask and playing a part in a farce, just hoping that maybe maybe maybe he could clear himself somewhere down the line, and when I don't have any scumreads that I feel super strongly about I don't think that's a super realistic option.

Vote: OkaPoka

nancy ~ )) - Flicker - Trinity -- Iceman - )) ------ Quick, FF % )) > -- Eragon ---- WhyMafia )) -------- OkaPoka )) ~


Why would you expect her to double down as scum? It seems to me like your whole basis for scumreading her is that she's milquetoast, so I don't really get how you would expect that from her at all.

I'm going to respond to this with some attempts on analysis and hopefully not summary.

1) Let's be real here, you were not really coming around to an Oka scumread, you've been scumreading me since the beginning of this game essentially.
Evidence:

What are Pregame Readscales lmao

nancy ~ )) ---- )) ---- stan - FF, Trinity - [Iceman, Eragon] % )) - > SA, OkaPoka - Flicker )) ~

This was extremely early into the game you and you had me as one of the scummier players.

Maybe you in the middle there had a bit of doubt in your scumread, but you've been struggling to townread me since the start.

2) Yeah I can see why some might find my reads so fake, they have an inconsistent progression. But I've said before that my reads are extremely bouncy because its a result of my play. But sure, you can still use gut and stuff to say that my bouncy reads are fake. But I'll turn this on you, why have you been so insistent on using "genuine" as a tell/read for towniness? When I point to why I think people are town/scum, my reasoning usually comes down to motivation reads, a lot of yours comes down to X feels genuine. Also your read on Flicker unvoting me doesn't work as town motivation because it was before Trinity and Iceman join the wagon, and formerfish at that time was leaning into quick. So I guess my question to you is, can you give us reads solely based on using motivation rather than the words "genuine response" "gut feeling" "tonally XYZ" and stuff like that?

3) Trinity hasn't addressed my concerns. She has continued to lack meaningful engagement with anyone, which is my primary concern still. I'm not really finding new reasons to scumread her, I'm building my case based on the one thing.

4) Again with the tone/feeling reads. To me, that is a lazy read. It doesn't give anyone else anything to work off of, it blocks everyone else from your thought process and nobody is able to criticize you. It's impossible to really find logical inconsistencies within a tone read because it is really just void of logic. If I were playing scum, these types of reads are the go to reads when I'm stuck on giving genuine reads because I can't get attacked for it.

pedit: oh boi part 2 is coming with these responses

[WhyMafia]

was scrolling back to re-read and saw the last vc lmao

[OkaPoka]

alright imma just claim vt because i might get lynched or lolhammered

also im going to put it out there, you guys need to do a meta dive on nancy. she can play competent scum and you should all start questioning nancy's

posting this is def going to get me lynched, but I think nancy has been the overlooked player this game. something just isn't right wit her. She has been too composed and too reliant on using emotional reads, personally I feel emotional reads are an easy way out of posting logical reads and lets be honest, nancy is fully capable of doing strong, logical, and emotionless reads.

[WhyMafia]

I think your reads have been pretty wishy-washy. Your Eragon read is the only one that I've seen you really stick to. It's not the worst thing in the world to be wishy-washy. You replaced in not very long ago, you're still getting a feel for the game, sure, I get it. That does need to change at some point, though.

Meh. I can see how you think that. Re-reading what I said does give that impression, and my insistence on Eragon reflects my confidence in that read. The only other players who I'm think confident about are you and Ice as town. And I didn't really think I needed to elaborate on them, but will gladly do so

[OkaPoka]

Luckily though, we have enough experienced and vocal players this game to counterract and the possibility of nancy!scum but I'm just saying be cautious.

nancy shouldn't be the lynch today however, I'm not saying she is scum, I'm saying that if you look at her meta, marking her conf town is just simply dangerous, she can play scum extremely well

response to nancy post inc

[OkaPoka]

and if nancy comes up scum, trinity is probs the partner

in nancy's scum pt, she explains how charisma is the most important trait to have for scum

and she hates bussing

i think trinity's is starting to play these cards up

now that i've said these things the well is going to dirty, but i worry nobody else is going to go back and do a look so I'm saying it now and these reads from now on are officially null. They will only work before this post

[nancy]

It's Iceman, me, and WhyMafia on the wagon. It's L-2.

[WhyMafia]

Oh trinity unvoted mb

[WhyMafia]

Oka is the only thing you dislike about Nancy is that she's using emotions? Claiming that all her reads and analysis don't have logic or reasoning to back them out is folly. I also do think its folly for town to consider Nancy lock-town and treat her words as if she was confirmed town. I've been conflicted by your slot but this OMGUS is disgusting. Reads are to be re-evalulated and changed as time passes, dw

[WhyMafia]

in nancy's scum pt, she explains how charisma is the most important trait to have for scum

and she hates bussing

Can you link? I've only played with town!Nancy

[nancy]

I'm going to unvote so that I don't have to watch thread carefully to make sure people don't get overexcited and hammer him when have ~5 days until deadline.

Unvote

[OkaPoka]

Fuck man I was really killing myself there for a while. I had no confidence, I even ran through a ton of your past games to try to figure out if there was some god damn secret to your play here that I could find.

I guess I'll just post the rest of my stuff from my IC topic then.

Spoiler: OkaPoka

When I try to follow his early Trinity read, I look at the way he asked her whether she was being sarcastic in 113, then as soon as she replied he dropped townreads on her, me and stan in 122. Really feels like he was just already going to say he townread her there and wanted that exchange with her as an excuse to make it. There's no sense that he actually did work to get there on her and it makes no sense that he would include me and stan in there if he was actually focused on sorting her specifically there.

Then he says that he's having a hard time scumreading anyone, but like, it's not even 200 posts into the game, two slots hadn't even posted at that point, it's just such a premature thought to have there and doesn't feel believable as something he felt as town. His explanations for his reads in 137 don't feel like real things at all. He's literally copy pasted the same reasoning for townreading me and Trinity and calls stan a "rational town player" which just sounds like some kind of nondescript archetype and not an actual description of someone's play. His reasoning for townreading Trinity makes even less sense because it's completely disconnected from his earlier exchange with her, not to mention she hadn't been interacting that much and like, again, it's less than 200 posts into the game, even if "interacting that much" were something to townread, and it isn't, the timing of it makes no sense.

His read on Flicker also flips around and I just struggle to see that being a real read from him. "FF is town because reasons" is literally not even a read. Then he moves and calls Icemand and SA mafia because he's townreading everyone else and like... no, dude, that's not real, not on page 6. Especially not when it doesn't line up with his suspicion of Flicker.

I'm sort of going to skip around from here because his ISO is way too long to go through.

I so didn't like 172, it feels like a fake reaction to FF's content and he hasn't actually engaged with FF at all.

He says he feels lost in 252 but like, he has 5 townreads? I don't understand how anyone can ever feel lost with 5 townreads before the game has barely even started.

The way he backs up his read on FF later, a few times actually, feels a decent amount like TMI bleeding through because the things he's talking about wrt FF aren't very alignment indicative but he's supporting a townread with them. (267, 277, 779)

His scumread on Trinity in 283 contradicts his earlier townread on her and the read just feels super tacky. It feels like he's trying to paint her as scum rather than actually believing that she's mafia. And uh... he's literally held the scumread for nearly 30 pages now without wavering, and his reasoning for scumread her has constantly changed as his old reasoning has become insufficient which I think is really slimy.

321 was icky on a spiritual level. It felt like he started buddying me when he saw that I was pushing back a little on the scumreads on him and wanted to amuse himself with who I thought was mafia rather than actually do anything to solve the game together.

345 he's kind of blatantly admitting to sheeping which is... bad? But maybe not scummy bad, since he's like openly admitting it? Idk. There's a bunch of this kind of attitude all throughout his ISO and it's super super skeevy. (468, 668/683, 919)

The interaction with Trinity in 390 and 392 feels like open wolfing tbh. I don't understand how town thinks any of the things that Oka is thinking in here. Like, he's just openly admitting to throwing shade on her, talking about how he's pushing her because he doesn't want to be lynched, it's just... ugh, god, how is this ever town, it's so bad I think it might just be town but I don't think I can ever let it live because it's just too nasty.

624 just feels way too close to "yeah I'm a wolf but your reasons are wrong" for comfort.

639 feels like a cardboard cut-out of a townie, like, literally don't believe those are ever things that Oka has been feeling in this game.

652 feels like he's trying to project a version of scum behavior specifically to make himself look town for not conforming to it. He makes a lot of posts like this.

684 this is just like. Either some of the worst villager process I have ever seen, or it's just a wolf, and either way, I think you just have to lynch it, because the times where it's a wolf probably outnumber the times where it's a villager.

703 is just another post where I feel like he's pulling stuff out of his ass. Like, he's presented no reason for there to be 2 mafia in that grouping, for all I know he just pulled 2 other names besides Trinity out of a hat and said "hey guys there's scum in here!".

I still think the "as long as there is a better lynch today" part of 785 is scum mindset through and through and the only thing holding me back from taking it as a scumclaim is that he's um, plainly stating it in thread.

The way he jumps out with a random post discrediting me in 920 feels like a moment of scum frustration. I also, um, never wrote a case, which kinda contributes to feeling that he's not real.

And add to that your response to my scumread here which um, literally never comes from town. Sorry dude.

meh nvm nancy's case is going to be indisputable with the amount of times the word "feel" appears

i can't dispute what you feel

i can dispute your method tho

going backwards:

I discredit you because I did a skim meta dive and then I saw that you are competent at scum, yeah its scummy but who gives a fuck if your scum. I'll trade 1 for 1 especially because you are unlynchable. If I can even plant a seed of doubt into your towniness after I pass, it'll be worth. I'm willing to take that risk because you are good at this game and you have demonstrated charisma, making you a hard lynch to sell. You have people in your pocket if your scum, or your forming a townbloc if you are town. If you are town I genuinely hope you can succeed but I'm not willing to take the chance that you rolled scum and you are pocketing the others.

785: meh, no. If you are town you are the nk tonight.

703: I've had a lean towards scum iceman for a bit now, and I've demonstrated that I was at least no longer tring eragon.

684: wrong? If I have three scumreads, A B and C, and I scumread A and B more than C, then maybe I've misread C.


and then with the emotional reads meh

i dislike nancy's use of emotions because if she is truly scum who can really argue there is a logical inconsistency with her reads? emotional reads are the safe play that don't benefit anyone else unless you are confirmed town.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=72011

I think that today, we can not lynch FF/Quick/Nancy simply because if one of these people are scum, the others have to be able to counter them

[nancy]

I think that today, we can not lynch FF/Quick/Nancy simply because if one of these people are scum, the others have to be able to counter them

Explain?

[OkaPoka]

Because if you are scum, we lynch me today, you can nk one of those two and worst case scenario the other person is scum, nobody here is going to have the guts to oppose you and your bloc.

[OkaPoka]

swap you with anyone else it works probably

[OkaPoka]

anyone else in that list at least

[OkaPoka]

fuck that wouldn't work you could lynch me, and then nk the other one and in worst case scenario we lost

ehh just don't lynch me today