Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[OkaPoka]

Okay that's a fair criticism of a difference in play between here and my other town games. I have been a lot more jumpy on my reads this game than usual resulting in some interesting flip flops.

I mean if a scum player marks 3 people as town like he was forming a town bloc.

My lynch order is not set right now, I am seeking a formerfish response to my iceman vote and see his take on the game before I do anything drastic. I have some reads and thoughts that are going to hinge on how Formerfish responds and it will develop some reads outside of my Formerfish read. Also want to see if Trinity ever responds to my posts because I feel like I'm getting CJ'd.

[OkaPoka]

@Trinity I dunno what to say honestly, it's not really good enough to just list names in an order, you have to be able to talk about why those names are ordered the way they are. Like, you were able to talk about FF and Oka at least to some degree, that fact that you're completely unable to articulate any form of a scumread on anyone else at this point is super super worrying. You've also got FF in your lynch pool which is ???, you have stated a townread on FF, please explain how that makes sense.

I was planning on voting Oka this morning when I woke up but after Trinity's recent posting I'm kinda torn. In the world where Trinity is mafia then her flip would clear Oka and that's not a small thing. In the world where she's town then I want to lynch Oka pretty much always but my townread on her isn't as strong as it was and if I think there's a realistic chance of Trinity being mafia then I'm kind of inclined to give that read more time to develop and just put Trinity/Oka aside until tomorrow.

I think I want to lynch Quick the most at this point. There's just so much scum motivation in the way that he's been treating the Oka wagon and I've been mostly turning a blind eye to it but I don't think I can anymore. He's also just not doing anything this game and generally speaking that's never a bad type of slot to lynch on day 1.

@Everyone please share with the class who you would be willing to lynch today.

I think my lynch preference for today is Quick->Eragon->FF.

My previous post was in response to this post.

[OkaPoka]

fuck

How would you characterize my scum vs town game? Sorry if you've said this before, maybe I missed it or forgot it.

The biggest difference was probably your activity levels. The biggest difference between the town games that I read and this game is that your reads actually made sense and your process wasn't a complete nightmare in those games the way it is here.

Also is there evidence to this rule of 3 thing? If a scum player groups 3 town players would that mean there is a chance of their partner being in there too?

Who knows. And... what? If a scum player groups 3 town players... they're... town... and town can't be a mafia partner...

wrong one

[Quick]

@Trinity I dunno what to say honestly, it's not really good enough to just list names in an order, you have to be able to talk about why those names are ordered the way they are. Like, you were able to talk about FF and Oka at least to some degree, that fact that you're completely unable to articulate any form of a scumread on anyone else at this point is super super worrying. You've also got FF in your lynch pool which is ???, you have stated a townread on FF, please explain how that makes sense.

Trinity seems to be an odd player/has an odd playstyle, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think Trinity is just really new to Mafia which is probably what is contributing to the OMGUS reads Trinity has mostly done (but tbh I cba to look at what Trinities reads were throughout the game, just feels like here reads are OMGUSsy).

[TrinityNZ]

Okay that's a fair criticism of a difference in play between here and my other town games. I have been a lot more jumpy on my reads this game than usual resulting in some interesting flip flops.

I mean if a scum player marks 3 people as town like he was forming a town bloc.

My lynch order is not set right now, I am seeking a formerfish response to my iceman vote and see his take on the game before I do anything drastic. I have some reads and thoughts that are going to hinge on how Formerfish responds and it will develop some reads outside of my Formerfish read. Also want to see if Trinity ever responds to my posts because I feel like I'm getting CJ'd.

Oka, I have responded to you as much as I’m going to for now.

[OkaPoka]

I am most definitely getting Ceejay'd.

[nancy]

About the wagon stuff people were mentioning earlier...

If a wagon on one player continually dies, it can be a sign that they're mafia because their partners may be pushing against the lynch, and because mafia are more likely to support town lynches, making it easier for them to go through. This is why you should look for mafia on the wagon of a mafia lynch if the lynch seems to go through too easily.

If the thread dies when there is a consensus lynch, it can often mean that the lynch is a miss because if it weren't a miss then mafia would be actively trying to save their partner. This isn't always the case, because mafia may be bussing, mafia may simply not know what to do, mafia may be inactive, or other more contextual things. It's also less of a thing when there are only 2 mafia.

People were talking about no one defending Oka, but that's not really how you should look at it. Mafia defend town lynches too. And they don't always defend their partners. If no one is defending OkaPoka, then you have to look at who is pushing on him, who is simply abstaining, and why. Are any of the people pushing him bussing? Are any of the people abstaining acting like they know he's a mislynch? Are any of the people off wagon doing anything to try to dismantle the wagon?

That's kind of what I've been looking at and I think the way FF jumped on deserves a look in the world where Oka is town because it was a kind of slimy thing where he built up to it by arguing with Oka then, when he had the fuel, he pounced. There wasn't a natural progression there from his previous read on Oka, I don't think. I think the way that Quick has been idly sitting in thread and doing things like throwing shade on Trinity makes sense in a world where Oka/Trinity is v/v and he wants to capitalize on Oka's townflip by pushing a Trinity lynch. I think Iceman's treatment of the wagon is just super town all around, and I think WhyMafia's treatment of the wagon has been pretty good too.

[nancy]

UNVOTE: WhyMafia

I had a sort of half-baked theory about scum partners, so I partly voted to test out the reactions to that, but I didn't get the reactions I was expecting, and WhyMafia did a couple things that close to 100% disprove my theory (I won't say what it was now, maybe on another game day or in the post-game), so there's that. In terms of independently scum reading WM, it's a weak read based partly on stan1ey's case against me - which felt like a reach he was trying too hard to pad out into something more - and

partly based on the way WM came in and reversed course on the read of me/my post without mentioning the way other people reacted to it.

Please talk about the bolded? I don't understand that in the slightest.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

maybe he is town but im not getting many scumreads rn and i feel like his post on nancy is fake and the comment on IC's sounds like he wants to keep his lynch options open

When have you ever had strong scum reads on day 1, thats not really your style man? See, its posts like this that do worry me about you. Of course hes keeping his options open, its day 1, we all have our options open. I would not lynch like 3 people right now, the rest are all lynchable to some degree. This is overly aggressive play from you at this point in the game, and its propelling you further up my list of to die.

Have we ever played together in which I was here day 1?

[Quick]

About the wagon stuff people were mentioning earlier...

If a wagon on one player continually dies, it can be a sign that they're mafia because their partners may be pushing against the lynch, and because mafia are more likely to support town lynches, making it easier for them to go through. This is why you should look for mafia on the wagon of a mafia lynch if the lynch seems to go through too easily.

If the thread dies when there is a consensus lynch, it can often mean that the lynch is a miss because if it weren't a miss then mafia would be actively trying to save their partner. This isn't always the case, because mafia may be bussing, mafia may simply not know what to do, mafia may be inactive, or other more contextual things. It's also less of a thing when there are only 2 mafia.

People were talking about no one defending Oka, but that's not really how you should look at it. Mafia defend town lynches too. And they don't always defend their partners. If no one is defending OkaPoka, then you have to look at who is pushing on him, who is simply abstaining, and why. Are any of the people pushing him bussing? Are any of the people abstaining acting like they know he's a mislynch? Are any of the people off wagon doing anything to try to dismantle the wagon?

That's kind of what I've been looking at and I think the way FF jumped on deserves a look in the world where Oka is town because it was a kind of slimy thing where he built up to it by arguing with Oka then, when he had the fuel, he pounced. There wasn't a natural progression there from his previous read on Oka, I don't think. I think the way that Quick has been idly sitting in thread and doing things like throwing shade on Trinity makes sense in a world where Oka/Trinity is v/v and he wants to capitalize on Oka's townflip by pushing a Trinity lynch. I think Iceman's treatment of the wagon is just super town all around, and I think WhyMafia's treatment of the wagon has been pretty good too.

You didn't say anything about Aragorn, why not?

[nancy]

Vote: Quick

You gotta start spewing reads and actually putting time into this game if you're town.


pedit because he's been V/LA, as has Flicker.

[Quick]

Vote: Quick

You gotta start spewing reads and actually putting time into this game if you're town.


pedit because he's been V/LA, as has Flicker.

Pfft. Whatever.

IDK what you mean by Spewing reads, but I've given plenty of them.

[OkaPoka]

I don't typically do this, but I think voting up quick is going down the wrong path and we don't really have time to go down the wrong path when we are approaching the deadline.

I am pretty sure Quick has put time into this game and he has given us some form of reads, it's distributed over a wide number of posts.
More specifically he is actively scumreading Formerfish and has interacted with him, but Formerfish hasn't shown up for about two days so Quick can't do much there. Quick is also expressing doubt and seems to be poking around with Trinity on the side, so there is that.

We can continue to sort Quick, but I don't think that we should lynch him today.

[nancy]

Oops I forgot to post my reads.

nancy ~ )) - Iceman, Flicker --- )) -- Trinity ) -- WhyMafia -- % )) > -- Eragon ) ---- FF, Quick )) ---------- OkaPoka )) ~

I don't typically do this, but I think voting up quick is going down the wrong path and we don't really have time to go down the wrong path when we are approaching the deadline.

I am pretty sure Quick has put time into this game and he has given us some form of reads, it's distributed over a wide number of posts.
More specifically he is actively scumreading Formerfish and has interacted with him, but Formerfish hasn't shown up for about two days so Quick can't do much there. Quick is also expressing doubt and seems to be poking around with Trinity on the side, so there is that.

We can continue to sort Quick, but I don't think that we should lynch him today.

This is extremely out of character for you. It's particularly strange considering Quick's stance on you is that we should just sort you with night actions.

Quick isn't expressing doubt on Trinity, he's shading her. And he's posturing, too, because on this page he goes back to say that she's probably just a newbie, which just spews her town if he is mafia. And his "scumread" on FF consists of "lol you're scum", "you're scummy", "you're wrong", "you're bad", "you're a liar" and various repetitions of the same.

[OkaPoka]

How I read it was Quick was essentially accusing Formerfish of emotional manipulation or something along those lines.

[Quick]

Oops I forgot to post my reads.

nancy ~ )) - Iceman, Flicker --- )) -- Trinity ) -- WhyMafia -- % )) > -- Eragon ) ---- FF, Quick )) ---------- OkaPoka )) ~

I don't typically do this, but I think voting up quick is going down the wrong path and we don't really have time to go down the wrong path when we are approaching the deadline.

I am pretty sure Quick has put time into this game and he has given us some form of reads, it's distributed over a wide number of posts.
More specifically he is actively scumreading Formerfish and has interacted with him, but Formerfish hasn't shown up for about two days so Quick can't do much there. Quick is also expressing doubt and seems to be poking around with Trinity on the side, so there is that.

We can continue to sort Quick, but I don't think that we should lynch him today.

This is extremely out of character for you. It's particularly strange considering Quick's stance on you is that we should just sort you with night actions.

Quick isn't expressing doubt on Trinity, he's shading her. And he's posturing, too, because on this page he goes back to say that she's probably just a newbie, which just spews her town if he is mafia. And his "scumread" on FF consists of "lol you're scum", "you're scummy", "you're wrong", "you're bad", "you're a liar" and various repetitions of the same.

Yup, got me...

[OkaPoka]

Welp, at least the odds of a Quick/Nancy scumteam just plummeted to 1%.

[Quick]

Spoiler: Reasons I think FF is Scum

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

So no, my case on FF doesn't amount to simply repeating he is Scum over an over, @nancy.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

[Formerfish]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

[Formerfish]

I'm going to unvote so that I don't have to watch thread carefully to make sure people don't get overexcited and hammer him when have ~5 days until deadline.

Unvote

I'll be honest this is super sus to me.

Oka has been all over the place and not in a good way. He's swinging around and grasping at straws. He's being super defensive and irrational. HE IS SCUM. Why on earth would you jump off a wagon that's at L-2? That makes zero sense. Even if he was at L-1 you shouldn't be jumping off. If someone LOLhammers then we got a another scum out of it. Either way we get a scum.

I'm seriously starting to wonder about the town read on you.

My town read is 100% based on the amount of posting, the detail to the posts, and the searching for scum. But, as I look back at it there seems to be more playing to each person. Like the way you've won Trinity over.... it just seems odd.

I think that this is a pretty decent take from Iceman. I like the thought process behind it.

[Quick]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But you are SRing Oka for that, so let's talk about it???

[nancy]

Spoiler: @Quick

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

This quote contains no reasoning about why FF is mafia. You asked him a theory question, and he answered.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

This is shade/doubtcasting, by you, which is scummy. I happen to think that the post you quoted is scummy, but again, no reasoning from you why FF is mafia in this quote.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

No reasoning from you. This isn't a read. The way you're taunting him is gross.

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Okay. Explain how the second thing is scummy?

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

Where did he say that to WM? I can't find it. I also side with FF on this one and think you were misunderstanding.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

So, you were being anti-town, FF called you on that, and this makes him mafia because _______.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

This is a legalistic interpretation of FF's earlier statements and basically equivalent a strawman argument. Not scummy, and even if he were contradicting himself, you haven't shown why that's scummy.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

I'm assuming the last sentence is the only part of this that you mean to be relevant? I don't think it's insane that FF would think to read into your defensiveness. I think you're trying to portray FF as an insane person and I think it's stupid.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

So, FF thinks something is scummy that you don't think is scummy and this makes him mafia because _______.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

There are reasons why this post from FF is scummy and none of them have to do with the contradiction that you claim he made. There's no reasoning in this quote.

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

This makes him mafia because _____.

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

I think it's pretty valid for FF to scumread you for not talking about your reads. You're trying to make it about the specific way in which you or he talks about reads, which is irrelevant. You bogged the discussion down in inanities then scumread him for being bogged down in inanities. It's a neat rhetorical trick, but it's stupid.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

FF is bad, which makes him mafia because _______.

FF's point is actually that it's not unreasonable for Iceman to have the idea that he had, and that he dislikes Oka's vote as a result. You're misconstruing his argument. Sure, make the argument that this is scummy of FF because something something TMI reads, but don't pretend that he's saying it's okay to PL the IC and scumread for that, that's just wrong.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

FF had been scumhunting. He was only saying that Oka didn't need to try to rev the game up, and that he thought it would be unrealistic for anyone to have a case-worthy scumread that early in the game. Why is this post scummy, Quick? You haven't put forth any reasoning, you're just saying that FF is wrong/bad/scummy.

Sure, I think a lot of the stuff you quoted from FF is pretty scummy, and guess what? I'm scumreading FF. But I think your reasons for thinking he's scum are pretty drab at best, horrific at worst, mostly nonexistent as far as what you have put into this thread, and I think you can do better.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

I'm not. Why do you think that I am?

[Formerfish]

I'm also starting to wonder about FF. What's with the coasting. Where's your super strong Scum reads. Where's your stands being taken? You jumped off a wagon to hit Quick be never went anywhere after that?

I dislike the term coasting. I prefer to be a leaf in the stream of time. Seriously though, I just took a day away from the game to take care of real life stuff and didnt realize it was a shorter prod timer than im used to.

And I have scum reads which I have been pushing. No one seems to really wanna follow me when I am on that person though. I can make all the arguments I want, but if no one is listening then its moot. And my stands have been made and then argued over by multiple people. Again, you can lead a horse to water but cant make him drink. Im not going to sit here and beat you guys over the head with the same arguments over and over.

[OkaPoka]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But how exactly am I misrepping Iceman?
check my 1081, I think its clear that Iceman has redefined his policy multiple times. I don't feel like I've done a poor job in repeating what Iceman has said.

You might get what he is saying or you might be reading between the lines to extract some subtle implied information, but nonetheless I feel like I have not misrepped Iceman, it's pretty blatant with some of the posts Iceman has made in what he is saying.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

Holy shit. I think I am really about to lose my mind here.

I think that anyone pushing Iceman as scum for having that idea is scum. I think that the people who keep bringing it up after its been kicked to death, buried and dug up for some more kicking, are scum.

This is a nonissue that they are trying to make into some bigger fucking deal. Its sad and pathetic because it has been talked to death.

Iceman is not scum for this or anything else. Dude is town.