Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[Micc]

Votecount 1.22

OkaPoka (4) -

IcemanCh, WhyMafia, TrinityNZ, nancy

TrinityNZ (4) -

OkaPoka, Flicker, Eragon, Formerfish

Formerfish (1) -

Quick

Not Voting (0) -

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Prodding IcemanCh.

[nancy]

@Oka why are you townreading Quick as strongly as you are? Why are you scumreading Trinity for not answering your question but not scumreading Quick for being extremely cagey all game and telling me he didn't want to talk to me when I went through his FF read in detail and told him it was nonsense?

@FF why are you okay with being on the Trinity wagon when the person who you strongly scumread has expressed intent to hammer and the counterwagon is a person who you recently voted and who strongly townreads your strong scumread?

@Flicker why are you voting Trinity?


@Quick please do not hammer, I have IC things that I need to post before lynch and I don't have time right now. I would also like to give Eragon and Flicker time to catch up now that they are both off V/LA. Please also run me through why you're fine hammering Trinity when FF is on the wagon. Do you think he's bussing, or what? My other questions also need answering.


@Everyone voting or considering voting Trinity, please explain how her VT claim makes sense with her being mafia.

[Quick]

@Quick what are your reads right now? What happened the townread you stated on Trinity in 419/740/753? You also implied you thought she was town in 1178, what changed exactly? Why are you even willing to hammer? "Feel more and more like that is Scum"? What does that even mean?

Do you want a reads list or just something off the top of my head?

Believe it or not, a lot of my change on Trinity was because of what other people were saying about her. Also, although you might think me saying Trinity's reads being OMGUSsy is Town motivated, that's not necessarily the case. IMO it can go both ways and I tend to think, in this case, Trinity is breaking that pattern of giving OMGUS reads to voting opportunistically. Not sure on the exact details of Trinity's reads/votes because I haven't been paying much attention to her, but off the cuff, it seems like Trinity is breaking a lot of their own rules in favor of voting opportunistically - or at least that is the feeling that I get from their vote on Oka.

[Quick]

@Quick please do not hammer, I have IC things that I need to post before lynch and I don't have time right now. I would also like to give Eragon and Flicker time to catch up now that they are both off V/LA. Please also run me through why you're fine hammering Trinity when FF is on the wagon. Do you think he's bussing, or what? My other questions also need answering.

Believe it or not (you probably don't) but I try and play this game with some sense of dignity. As such, I am not going to hammer until your request has been fulfilled, BUT if I see votes all the sudden starting to look like they are moving for little/no reason, I'm gonna take that as a sign that I should probably strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.

As far as me hammering when FF is on the wagon, I don't do Pre-Flip. That's the long and short of it. Yes, FF is my prefered lynch, but that isn't happening D1 so I have to go elsewhere. I'd rather NOT lynch Oka at this point and the wagons are pretty well consolidated so it's pretty much up to me to decide who is lynched. I tried voting Trinity earlier, but that was another spot where I would have hammered without a claim (when you voted Trinity IIRC), so I didn't do that. So actually, I would've/should've been there before FF anyways I think. (Will go back and check this).

[Quick]

Votecount 1.20

OkaPoka (3) -

IcemanCh, WhyMafia, Formerfish

TrinityNZ (2) -

OkaPoka, Flicker

Formerfish (1) -

Quick

Not Voting (3) -

Eragon, TrinityNZ, nancy

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Prodding Formerfish.

So Trinity. Is the main reason you switched on Oka is because of his relentless push on you? That he wouldn't risk it as town? Because by that logic, as scum, couldn't he do that, and undertake that defense? That's just WIFOM (Hope I used that correctly ;P ). Knowing that you'd town read him bc no scum would be that brazen sounds like a wonderful idea for scum to just do it anyway

Yes, you could be right, this is one reason why I’m feeling so confused right now, the longer this day goes on, the more confused I get.

After more thinking about this, I’m going to vote for Oka. I have flip flopped a couple of times with Oka. I started off thinking he was scum because of his tenacious and strong (and what I saw as unfounded) push on me, as an easy target. Then I thought that he wouldn’t do that as scum, because it would look too obvious. But yes, I agree this could be WIFOM, and it makes sense, so I’m putting my vote back on him.

I’m also having similar doubts about FormerFish. Again, I started off thinking he was mafia, and then changed my mind. Now I’m leaning back towards him being scum as he’s not feeling to me like he’s really in the game as much as he should be, and taking a bit of back seat and letting others do the scum hunt work, which doesn’t seem like him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: OkaPoka I think that’s L-1

Coincidence or no? Not sure at this point.

Let's try this:

(was going to vote Trinity here but looks like nancy beat me to it.)

And see what happens...

OK, yeah. Here is where I was going to vote Trinity but I didn't because I thought you voted for Trinity. Obviously, it looks (to me) like FF picked up on this and decided to try and get to Trinity before I did. Makes not much difference to me that FF tried to get there before me. He's either Scum with Trinity and looking for Town cred on Trinity's flip, OR he's pushing a Townie as Scum (nothing I can do about that at this point) or by some miracle FF is Town here and wasn't actually trying to pre-empt vote Trinity before me.

[nancy]

Quick, preflip associations happen when person C says that person B is mafia because person A is mafia and they seem like partners, but person A has not flipped, C is just convinced that A is mafia. Looking at a wagon and noticing that your scumreads are on the wagon and deciding that you're not comfortable helping someone who you explicitly

do not trust to the point that you want to kill them

to kill someone else has exactly nothing to do with that.

How on earth are you okay with lynching someone when you don't even have a good idea of what they have done this game? This is literally way too late to be thinking about the game "off the cuff". You are lynching someone. That means they're dead. Forever.

Why can't Trinity be voting Oka because she thinks he's mafia? "Opportunistic" is just a buzzword. It doesn't mean anything. What does "breaking the pattern of OMGUS reads" mean and how is that mafia indicative?

What do you think about her claim?

[Quick]

Quick, preflip associations happen when person C says that person B is mafia because person A is mafia and they seem like partners, but person A has not flipped, C is just convinced that A is mafia. Looking at a wagon and noticing that your scumreads are on the wagon and deciding that you're not comfortable helping someone who you explicitly

do not trust to the point that you want to kill them

to kill someone else has exactly nothing to do with that.

How on earth are you okay with lynching someone when you don't even have a good idea of what they have done this game? This is literally way too late to be thinking about the game "off the cuff". You are lynching someone. That means they're dead. Forever.

Why can't Trinity be voting Oka because she thinks he's mafia? "Opportunistic" is just a buzzword. It doesn't mean anything. What does "breaking the pattern of OMGUS reads" mean and how is that mafia indicative?

What do you think about her claim?

Well, that's how I play. I don't "count" on my SRs being correct before a lynch. I've said my prefered lynch, not much more I can do about it.

Newbs are generally pretty easy for me to read so I don't feel the need to pour hours into ISOing them.

Opportunistic isn't a buzzword to me. It a legit thought process. Voting opportunistically is when someone votes in a way that looks like there is a good chance for either a wagon to form on that person or there is a good chance of a lynch on that person.. It's about getting to the vote quickly without much reason given. I don't come from a place where "buzzwords" are a thing. As far as "breaking the pattern of OMGUS reads" goes, part of my reads come from what I call narrative that people set the tone of for their play. When they do something that is out of alignment with that narrative, it's Scummy. For example, if you were to all the sudden say you are never changing your reads for the rest of the game, that would be Scummy af to me because you have already changed your reads a million times. This does tie into my read on Trinity in that, I feel previously, Trinity's reads were very much OMGUSsy in nature. Where I am getting this from is their read on me and how it developed. It developed because I SR her. That was the reason for her SR on me. I didn't get that same feel for Trinity's vote on Oka. Instead, what I saw was a VC with Oka at like L-2 at the time and Trinity coming out of the woodwork to put Oka at L-1. My read on Trinity is what I call an Occam's Razor read. I have developed a system for categorizing players into 4 different types with 2 different options of 2 things. I can share it if you want, but not inclined to atm unless asked. Traditionally when people think of Occam's Razor they think of the rule of thumb that the simplest explanation is the correct one. The way I think about it is the process to which people develop reads. In this case I am using some concrete data (that isn't open to interpretation) to inform me of the motivation behind Trinity's play. The information I am looking at is what I just described.. There was a VC, then Trinity voted to put someone at L-1. And that is what I am using to inform my read on Trinity.

[nancy]

What you're trying to say is that you believe Trinity deviated from her villager process.

[Quick]

What you're trying to say is that you believe Trinity deviated from her villager process.

Sure.

[OkaPoka]

Okay this might get slightly personal and by no means do I accurately know how people feel.

Quick throughout this game has been acting slightly irritable, but he has gone through and explained his thought process on Formerfish previously, and though you and I might find it lacking and needing a bit more depth, and you might even find it disingenuous, I believe I can see where he is coming from and where he is going with his Fomerfish reads and likewise some of his other reads. Yes he has been reluctant at points to go in depth, but from my perspective it seems like Quick is acting from a town alignment that is pissed off.

Meanwhile Trinity has been warm and receptive this entire game. She has complimented others and though she hasn't really done proactive acts that often, she has been extremely open to answering any questions and willing to clarify anything about herself. So when she outright denies me the ability to Q&A her, what left is there? I have said repeatedly that the best way for me to develop reads is through interactions with others rather than watching other people interact, and she has denied me of the ability to do so. When someone receptive suddenly shuts off contact with me, its out of their personality to do so, and people normally don't go out of their way to act differently than their real self unless they are playing a PR/Mafia.

Quick is a question we as a town will have to answer tomorrow, but I felt like a push on Quick today would have been a dangerous waste of time, distracting us from the real scum in Trinity. I feel like it might just be a personality thing for Quick to refuse to go in depth, but at least he is interacting with others, not just blacklisting and refusing to talk.

[Quick]

IDK how that last comment was taken...

In any case, I just feel like I have sorta explained things fairly well??? at least my recent case on Trinity??? Let me know if I haven't :/

[OkaPoka]

I believe nancy wants you to explain your Formerfish thought process more and respond to her comments that you said you didn't want to create a quote war over.

[IcemanCh]

Formerfish is a strong player who strongarms lynches.

He attacks, picks, and essentially bullies his target whether he is right or wrong until others can see his way and get his target lynched.

But he doesn't stir the pot, Formerfish does not openly challenge others to a 1v1. More likely if you piss him off he just ignores you and tries to get others to vote his target.

This is what I've seen of FF as well.

[IcemanCh]

Everyone in the game needs to take a stance on the Trinity lynch. I personally don't think there's almost ever a world where she's town here after her readflip on Oka. I think her flip clears Oka and probably Quick. I think her FF read is weird but I have 100 eyes emoji at 569 and don't think I would clear him as a partner just because she was scumreading him and buddying people who were voting for him.

pedit FF, why are you completely ignoring Trinity's post?

pedit Quick cut it out. I am reporting your posts.

Lynching Trinity would be a mislynch in my opinion.

[IcemanCh]

Unvote

Kinda don't want to risk a hammer before WhyMafia has a chance to get back to me.

This is 1000% a scummy thing to do. Again.

[Formerfish]

Formerfish is a strong player who strongarms lynches.

He attacks, picks, and essentially bullies his target whether he is right or wrong until others can see his way and get his target lynched.

But he doesn't stir the pot, Formerfish does not openly challenge others to a 1v1. More likely if you piss him off he just ignores you and tries to get others to vote his target.

This is what I've seen of FF as well.

You've seen me in two games and we haven't had a player like quick in either of them.

[Formerfish]

Unvote

Kinda don't want to risk a hammer before WhyMafia has a chance to get back to me.

This is 1000% a scummy thing to do. Again.

I disagree. I can see how it can seem scummy, but think about it this way. If you think Nancy is scum for this then it'd only be scummy if she was bussing and pulled off her partners wagon like that. You've pointed out that she's done it twice now to different people. She can't be partnered with them both.

Now town is going to want to run people up, get some info and then regroup. It sounds like she is trying to get a read on WM and doesn't want the day to end before she can get those answers in case they end up being important.

I know that in a game recently I was cut off by the mod closing the thread for night. I had been working on this big post to explain where I thought the game was if I died. I never got a chance to post it because I was the nk. So I can understand why town!Nancy would pull off in those cases. She's not saying she isn't interested in the lynch anymore, just that we have a bit of time to look for some more answers.

[IcemanCh]

Formerfish is a strong player who strongarms lynches.

He attacks, picks, and essentially bullies his target whether he is right or wrong until others can see his way and get his target lynched.

But he doesn't stir the pot, Formerfish does not openly challenge others to a 1v1. More likely if you piss him off he just ignores you and tries to get others to vote his target.

This is what I've seen of FF as well.

You've seen me in two games and we haven't had a player like quick in either of them.

Right..... but that doesn't make my comment wrong.

[IcemanCh]

Either way. For whatever reason. Your game is different in this game.

[IcemanCh]

Unvote

Kinda don't want to risk a hammer before WhyMafia has a chance to get back to me.

This is 1000% a scummy thing to do. Again.

I disagree. I can see how it can seem scummy, but think about it this way. If you think Nancy is scum for this then it'd only be scummy if she was bussing and pulled off her partners wagon like that. You've pointed out that she's done it twice now to different people. She can't be partnered with them both.

Now town is going to want to run people up, get some info and then regroup. It sounds like she is trying to get a read on WM and doesn't want the day to end before she can get those answers in case they end up being important.

I know that in a game recently I was cut off by the mod closing the thread for night. I had been working on this big post to explain where I thought the game was if I died. I never got a chance to post it because I was the nk. So I can understand why town!Nancy would pull off in those cases. She's not saying she isn't interested in the lynch anymore, just that we have a bit of time to look for some more answers.

It's not the association that makes me feel like it's scummy. It's the insistence on controlling the thread and what information the town has. It wouldn't come as such a shock if she did it when the intent to hammer was announced or after a claim has been made. The entire thing to me feels like a way to stunt the growth of town. We've been forced twice to stop a wagon and then get scattered again. To me scum is trying to run out the clock . I can tell you I'm 100% fatigued at this point. I don't want to look at the tread and try and reassess anything. Scum is winning.

[IcemanCh]

I still think Nancy is town I just don't like this controlling nature of the town wagons.

I also think it's a big mistake to lynch Trinity. I know I'll regret this if she does flip Scum but, I"m going to call it now. She's town.

[Formerfish]

Either way. For whatever reason. Your game is different in this game.

A good part of why I'm primarily playing newbie games is to improve my own game. I am taking the bits that have been successful for me from previous games, meshing them together and trying some other shit. Every single one of my games since I've been back have been different to some degree, it's called evolution.

Ninja- I mean I guess since I see her as town I don't see it as controlling the thread in a bad way. And none of the wagons have dispersed, they are still there. You could always compromise your read for the benefit of town gaining info by voting Trinity.

[Formerfish]

I still think Nancy is town I just don't like this controlling nature of the town wagons.

I also think it's a big mistake to lynch Trinity. I know I'll regret this if she does flip Scum but, I"m going to call it now. She's town.

Is this the same confidence that made you hop off the 2.8 train last game?

[Quick]

I still think Nancy is town I just don't like this controlling nature of the town wagons.

I also think it's a big mistake to lynch Trinity. I know I'll regret this if she does flip Scum but, I"m going to call it now. She's town.

In nancy's defense... Yes, she jumps around... a lot... but guess what? Pushing anything that moves is generally a very good thing. If you generally have the mindset going into a game that you are going to play like you are going into a Mosh Pit (I don't mosh, far too introverted, but I consider this my Moshing) where you are essentially trying to hit anyone and everyone, that gives a shit ton of content for Town to look at. Even if you are not going at it from an analytical PoV, pushing stuff works very very well in terms of win rate over a large sample size. So while nancy could be a bit more... controlled(?) in her pushes, I think on the whole what she is doing is very very much a plus for Town's win con. I would be shocked if nancy wasn't NKed (given I know very little of nancy's Scum game, but I am not quite ready to WIFOM that beast yet).

[Quick]

Either way. For whatever reason. Your game is different in this game.

A good part of why I'm primarily playing newbie games is to improve my own game. I am taking the bits that have been successful for me from previous games, meshing them together and trying some other shit. Every single one of my games since I've been back have been different to some degree, it's called evolution.

Ninja- I mean I guess since I see her as town I don't see it as controlling the thread in a bad way. And none of the wagons have dispersed, they are still there. You could always compromise your read for the benefit of town gaining info by voting Trinity.

I thought you more or less said you were coming in somewhat "fresh"?