Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Gustavo]

Is that l-1?

[Errantparabola]

i unvoted then voted again so it's the same as whatever it was before

[Errantparabola]

rip okay irre was probably fishing for a scumclaim sorry

[Irrelephant11]

yeah it's not hammer but was hoping for claim, oh well

[Gustavo]

It’s l-1 again.

[Gustavo]

yeah it's not hammer but was hoping for claim, oh well

He claimed vt

[Irrelephant11]

uh huh

[Gustavo]

VT

Now lynch scum

VOTE: EP

[Irrelephant11]

yes I know.

[Not_Mafia]

Lynch scum pls

Gustavo or EP

[Gustavo]

write out cases on both of us or stfu and die

[Keyser Söze]

write out cases on both of us or stfu and die

[BlackVoid]

The last scum is probably BV because

:

[*] He claimed 1-shot BP. In the context of this game, that's the least falsifiable claim: we can't be sure who scum shot at N1, and we can't ask him for results on anything. Funny that of all the different possibilities, he claimed one of the very few things that aren't falsifiable directly, except by process of elimination on how many scum there are.

Yeah, it's really funny. I just claimed the role I had. I can't do anything about it's lack of results or falsifiability. (I'll give serious responses to your other points though).

[*]My one potential read of the slot being a town 1SBP was if MathDino was baiting a shot to waste a scum NK, but none of the "Math got shot at N1" perspective seemed to have leaked into BV's posts if you reread his catch up. No sign of that perspective until 2821. This should have been a pervasive piece of information through which to view the game,

and conflicted with the hard town read of Gustavo

.

This is an actual good point because I was considering crumbing something like "I think I was the Night one kill" when TheWorst and Bernie made those posts. But I actually didn't think my pred was likely to have been NK'd at all but I was basing that off play and not his softs where he said he wanted to lie low. Ultimately I decided that I didn't want to give scum any additional hints about my role because I suspected that they may have a limited shot strongman kill that'll help them get rid of BP and protected players. It seemed from TheWorst's and Bernie's claims that there could be more protective roles so I also assumed scum would have a counter. I really didn't want to get NK'd this game because I figured the longer me and skitter were both alive to gamesolve, the sooner the game would be in the bag. I didn't expect the massive amounts of wild paranoia on me.

[*]After all that talk about being so careful about laying down his vote, he "accidentally" hammers TW 7 minutes after Keyser laid down his vote.

I missed Gustavo's vote. Before Keyser posted, I went back and counted the votes backwards until the point where I left for work. It was errant, Bernie, Nauci. That was much less than the six votes needed. So, I put down a vote, saw Keyser's vote in a preview but didn't think it was a hammer anyways. Then recounted and realized it would be L-1. I totally forgot Gustavo had his "claim and I'll unvote" vote on TheWorst before. I'm not going to be "careful" about voting the guy who fake-claimed a guilty on me. I'm also not sure what your point is here and whether you're claiming I hammered my partner because? If I wanted to ensure he'd be the one lynched, it's fairly easy to get him to make weaker arguments. Sidenote: The fact that he kept fighting to the end and encouraging Rask to vote me shows he really wanted to lynch me. If I were his partner, he would not. Because Rask still had the track on him and I were lynched, he'd get lynched next and it would have been game over. He wanted to get his mislynch in before he went down.

[*]TW and BV both delay for a long time before addressing the claims/pressure. TW was very clearly doing it to fish for reactions to "investigative role" and result on BV (or weird interaction with EP) to figure out the available claimspace. BV gave him way more potential credibility than made sense for his read of the worst/the game state/the English language.

Yeah, TW delayed his claim. I'm not sure what delay you are talking about regarding me. He fake-claimed a guilty when I just said I was leaving for work. I think he was hoping to lynch me before I came back and refuted all his arguments. Given how paranoid people were (Rask voted me over the person he had a result on), I don't think that was an unreasonable expectation. If Rask didn't have the result, he probably may not have even waited for me to come back. Another sidenote: if I were scum with TheWorst, he'd want to theater it up, not claim when I'm not even there.

TheWorst was crumbing investigating me right from the point I replaced in. Not only that, he basically was encouraging investigatives to be on me. Doing that to a buddy is pretty risky because he'll have to bus or clear me. Clearing a townie is a lot less risky because their flip won't incriminate you.

[*]If he's scum, then this was scum theater to tell TW that he thinks there's a Neapolitan in the game. I suspected him for very little explained reason but didn't dunk him, so it shouldn't have been hard to figure out (I am terrible at playing TPR).

This is actually a really good point but your conclusion is wrong. The hilarious thing was that I thought that if TheWorst was town, he was a Neapolitan. So I told him there was literally one role that could get a soft guilty on me. I hadn't crumbed at all so I figured if he was town, this was a good way for us both to read each other. I claim first, then TheWorst confirms that he is Neapolitan and then points to where he specifically crumbed Neapolitan to corroborate that claim. I didn't expect somebody else to be an actual Neapolitan.

You suspecting me for very little reason and not explaining it made me think you were scum. This feels like an unsubtle argument but my reactions in hindsight were towny because I wasn't looking for TPRs, I was looking for scum. I guess this is a more useful argument to make in postgame so whatever.

[*]Oh and I guess this is where he described basically exactly what he did to TW, without scum day chat.

Lol no, that was me defending Not_Mafia. But man, the paranoia here is tangible.

[*]Okay, this post and maybe even this one looks even more strange post TW/Mom flips (now that scum don't have daychat while trying to coordinate a fake claim). And of course, TW would have told his partner about the neighborhood w/ EP on N2...

The first post was made when Momrangal was still alive so obvious there was daychat. Also, are you saying that I demanded claims from BOTH my partners for no reason at all? I explained why I wanted them both to claim. I wanted us to use the time without rushing to a last-minute lynch. As for the second one, there's no deeper meaning there. I just wanted him to claim and out his results.

[*]He pushes me as a scum read when he thinks TW is scum. This is suuuuuuch a reach. Not only have I pushed/pressured TW since the beginning of d2 and skimmed like 70% of TW's games to case the hell out of him him and pinned his scum play down since like post 666.

Clearly not as much a reach as you still suspecting me when I had 2/3 of the scumteam in my scumpile upon replacing in. Your "case" was weird to me. You weren't posting findings from your own meta research. You were quoting secondhand what somebody else said about his play. I don't play that way and I wasn't really sure what to make of it.

[*]He scum reads me for not explaining my town reads on Irrelephant/Skitter when he has basically done the same level of explanation for the same town reads, after town reading me for most of the day, with an aggressiveness that felt like panic about having their gambit ruined. Some of it was predicated on me-irrelephant being scum together, but doubled down on scum reading me despite thinking TW was definitely scum.

I did not townread Irrelephant for most of the game. My townread on skitter was based on three past games. I also didn't think your skitter townread was unreasonable. If anything, I thought it was unreasonable that Irrelephant and others

weren't

townreading her hard enough. What I found scummy is you saying that were mindmelding, repeating it a lot, but never really discussing reads or attempting to figure out your disagreements. You were scumreading me even though she was townreading me and you didn't really ask the person who you had this amazing mindmeld with if she had any good reasons for her read. Similar on the Irrelephant read: she suspected him both but you didn't. Now it makes so much sense. It didn't matter if Skitter suspected Irrelephant when you knew he was a VT. But working with the information I had at the time, it appeared scummy to me that you didn't inquire about skitter's Irrelephant suspicion. As for Keyser, you only investigated him tonight so honestly I don't know why you had such a confident townread before

[*]As mentioned in my case, TW hard bussed a teammate one of his games (and won for it, IIRC). Especially if they thought they'd get the last TPR for this gambit.

Oh great. More reason to be paranoid of me I guess. But I'd point out that guiltying a stronger teammate with a possibly stronger role (I'm assuming the last scum is something other than goon) doesn't feel like a good move for scum. Guiltying a townie before he goes down does. He also gets rid of someone who can solve the game when alive lategame.

[*]His strongest scum reads for most of the previous days were basically the consensus ones (momrangal and tw, who already bussed each other). His strongest town reads (skitter, shoshin, bernie, gus) were consensus ones too. Starts off content posting[ Day 3 by throwing shade onto the rest. At some point he hard swings into only wanting me/irrelephant dead D3, but swings back onto TW without addressing this conflict.

My strongest scumreads were flipped scum. I as a townie replacing in am not going to care about "consensus" when developing reads. I'm going to suspect who I suspect and I was right. I also don't think skitter or Bernie was particularly townread at that point. Irrelephant was much more townread. I was surprised why skitter was ending up lower in a lot of people's lists. Me being good at the game doesn't mean I have an informed perspective and it's honestly a little annoying when people jump to that conclusion.

[*]I found it funny he said I'm capable of my full town range as scum (which I haven't managed to accomplish yet). BV is very capable of that feat.

I don't know where all this fear of my scumgame is coming from because I'm really not. I played well outside what I'm capable of as scum.

[*]You know full well that not using your vote as a scumhunting tool is anti-town. There's no town reason to not put it on TW if you're torn between the two when he wasn't close to risk of lolhammer.

I don't "use my vote as a scumhunting tool" very much at all. I take my time deciding who I want to lynch and vote that player. It's a tool to lynch people. What scum reason is there to not put my vote on TheWorst? I drifted off to sleep while still thinking about the game. Why would I put it on TheWorst if I was torn between the two. I'd decide which I prefer and put my vote there.

[*]Defending N_M despite his low activity is actively better for scum.

You are just throwing around "defending NM" like it's an "informed perspective" thing. As town, you have to defend your townreads. Especially if they are lynchbait. The less mislynches you allow scum, the better it is and oftentimes town win because mislynches have been taken off the table. I think I was wrong now but I believed was the most pro-town thing with the info I had at the time.

[*]I would have expected Town!Math to normally interact with Anything!The Worst quite a bit, even if it's banter.

I'll be sure to write it up in my list of complaints to him over how he played this role.

[Irrelephant11]

blackvoid are you willing to eat a lynch to help us sort gustavo/errant?

[BlackVoid]

With regard to the "one of TheWorst or Momrangal are scum" thing, I actually thought there were reasons they could be scum together which I posted in my catchup. It just didn't feel like both of the people being pressured on D2 were scum. I really wanted to put myself into a mindset where I assume only one of them was scum and then try to pick right. If both are scum, then I'll have picked right anyways so it wasn't going to be a problem.

[Gustavo]

blackvoid are you willing to eat a lynch to help us sort gustavo/errant?

how would a bv lynch help sort me/errant?

[Irrelephant11]

I have already explained how your mechanical clear is no longer a mechanical clear if BV really is 1sbp. Similarly, given tw's tendency to PR gambit, flipping BV would make me re-examine EP's treatment of tw's slot. Regardless, NM is in the lynchpool, but both of your slots are much greener

only because

I don't know that BV's slot is green.

BV?

[BlackVoid]

blackvoid are you willing to eat a lynch to help us sort gustavo/errant?

I wouldn't consider "eating a lynch" to be good townplay even in a regular game where I don't feel entitled to be clear because scum fake-claimed a guilty on me.

If errant/gustavo are scum, the only way town will win is if I can hold down my slot and prevent it from getting lynched. I won at least two towngames because I tried so, so hard to not get lynched and in of those game, ultimately the person deciding the game felt if I were scum putting in that much effort, I honestly deserved an award and voted the actual scum. That was in 3-way lylo.

Regardless, I'm not sure why my flip will help you "sort" Gustavo or Errant. Me flipping town is not going to confirm that I was the N1 nightkill. It could still have been Gustavo. You just have to read and figure him out.

[Irrelephant11]

If errant/gustavo are scum, the only way town will win is if I can hold down my slot and prevent it from getting lynched.

This isn't true.
We have 3 lynches for you/errant/gustavo/nm. I feel v comfortable using the first lynch on your slot, because it's surrounded by so, so much tw WIFOM.
It doesn't actually sort gustavo/errant that much, I just wanted you to answer the question.

Hm. Whatever let's just lynch NM > BV > good luck to whoever has to pick between gustavo and errant (probably skitter)

Others' thoughts?

[Gustavo]

We have 3 lynches for you/errant/gustavo/nm.

what about skitter? he isn't cleared

[Irrelephant11]

Right but I don't think it's skitter, so *shrug*
I don't really think it's you or errant either which is why I'm fine with just having lynchtime

[skitter30]

hi i'm a she

i feel like there's enough lynches left that we're basically guaranteed to get to 4way, and depending on how exactly the flips go and if i'm alive i probably get hammer. i can't project exactly what i'll do there because it'll depend on future flips but this prob won't be the worst xylo i've been in

(aside: i'm eternally surprised that i make it anywhere near xylo)

basically my point is that the order doesn't matter *too* much since there's enough cleared slots that we can basically lynch through the unclears and win, although it would be nice to win today, so i'm going to try for that

bv i'm going to read your response but i need to do stuff irl now, but i'll be back later this afternoon at some point

[Gustavo]

Pronouns... sorry

[Irrelephant11]

It could still have been Gustavo. You just have to read and figure him out.

What do you think?

[Irrelephant11]

I think I'm just gonna step out for a while, I think town has this game won, I'll be back later and if we decide to lynch BV I'll happily move to that wagon

Thanks Nauci for being a great neo

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