NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[Pine]

I was mostly looking at the dynamics of dram wagon. I doubt scum were very concerned about which of two townies they wanted to lynch.

Ftr Pine never behaved like this with any other replacement. Like the thread never got locked. Could that mean something? I guess maybe Pine thought Andrius made the game better or something?

The thread was locked because, like you, I thought there was a hammer. The problem was noticed when I produced a full VC and did my standard replacement doctrine. Had Andrius chosen to stay when I chatted with him on Discord, his vote would have remained in effect and ended the day. Hence locking the thread.

Further, I stated that the problem was discovered when I went to process the replacement request. If it had been pointed out to me, I would have said something to that effect while retaining anonymity. "No unanticipated moderator lies" is a central tenet of Normal game doctrine.

Searching for additional meaning in my actions is likely a fruitless effort. I tend not to obfuscate if I can help it.

[Inferno390]

HWS might be scum. I think him being on the dram wagon was prob bussing, because I cannot remember any strong reads coming from him about it.
Profii has been playing much poorer than I last saw him. I think he’s up for grabs on this wagon.
Sky has been playing well enough today that I doubt she’s scum.
MOI I’m conflicted on rn. On one hand, his last post on me I know from experience is a town response. However, while I have said some dumb stuff this game and I will not deny it, using that as a reason to slap a “dumbass” label on everything I post is a mindset that I cannot see coming from town. (Either way, it made my day and nearly killed me from laughing.)

I think the main problem is atp that we all of these “conftown” right now, and I have the sinking sus that at least one of them is fake. With all the claims today, we’re sitting at 6? people that it is reasonable to be scum, which takes a little suspended disbelief to agree with D2 with 15 still alive. I don’t like that at all and this should probably be figured out next phase.

[Inferno390]

I wish I was on a PC rn.

Almost51
MagnaofIllusion
brassherald
the worst
Skygazer
xyzzy
HeWhoSwims
Profii

^ So apart from the person who might be my fruitvend target this should be a complete list of where scum are right? obviously not looking for "you could be scum!!!!" comments just wanna make sure I'm being reasonable.

This bothers me.
1) TW is mechanically confirmed to not be scum. Why is he on this list.
2) By pitting MOI on this list, you’re implying Andy and Chick might be scum. Why are they NOT on this list?
3) I’m failing to see why brass is on here considering that I haven’t seen a case for him from you yet. Could that be elaborated?

[Inferno390]

Quick phone post ...

If Dram turns out to be Town kill all three of Theworst / Inferno / Brass with Fire.

At least two would be scum looking to lynch an uncountered fairly powerful role on for sketch as heck reasons. Worst first since saying “lynch regardless of claim if scummy” which is 100% scum beneficial play. This is a Large game. It will go on for many days and not giving any thought to the potential damage to Town from mislynching a claimed role is at best terrible play. So fear mongering while saying it is role madness and likely many alternative means to assess Dram’s alignment exist is suspect.

Will have computer posted thoughts later.

And for the record - things getting down to the wire in the game with no obvious scum suspects left around?

Someone who hard pushed Dram AFTER the claim is scum. Because there was no way the lynch was going through after that claim due to all the reasons stated yesterday. So easily within reason that scum took that window to hardpress for Town cred by pushing for Dram to be lynched when it was completely safe to do so.

If I recall correctly that was basically Worst / Inferno / Brass.

So if the game somehow gets to like Day 6 or 7 with maybe 1 Mafia left don't forget this post people.

This has been sitting on my mind for a while now. I’d like to discuss it.

[Ausuka]

1) no. SK is scum imo and the optimal play for anyone but tw who shot Dram is obviously to stay quiet and shoot tw at night.

2) andrius was obvtown and I doubt MOI faked an inno on his buddy like that. chick is town because Nosferatu is town.

3) hmmm it's almost like you don't need to literally case someone for them to be potential scum

3)

[Ausuka]

idk why that last 3 is there!!!

[Skygazer]

2) By pitting MOI on this list, you’re implying Andy and Chick might be scum. Why are they NOT on this list?

Do you think scum-MoI fake-cleared scum-Andrius and scum-Andrius fakecleared scum-Chicka and scum-Chicka fakeclaimed vengeful? Because 1) that would be hilarious and I'm secretly hoping that happened and wouldn't even be salty if we lost to that and 2) that would all come toppling down as soon as Chicka is lynched to get her vengekill because it would confirm Nos and MoI as scum so there's a 0% chance of that actually happening

[Inferno390]

2) By pitting MOI on this list, you’re implying Andy and Chick might be scum. Why are they NOT on this list?

Do you think scum-MoI fake-cleared scum-Andrius and scum-Andrius fakecleared scum-Chicka and scum-Chicka fakeclaimed vengeful? Because 1) that would be hilarious and I'm secretly hoping that happened and wouldn't even be salty if we lost to that and 2) that would all come toppling down as soon as Chicka is lynched to get her vengekill because it would confirm Nos and MoI as scum so there's a 0% chance of that actually happening

But then why is MOI on this list? Because unless you think that MOI is scum while Andy is Town, they either both have to be scum or both have to be Town. And MoI without Andy doesn’t narrative with dram.

[Ausuka]

hey look i said i wouldn't make a quotewall but i'm doing it anyway because i'm a masochist I guess??? whee

Agreed. In my onion I think the first reaction test (elbirn) is fine but the second one (rask) a bit LAMIST especially considering he never really followed up on it other than his read on inferno.
VOTE: rask

This is just a scumpost. It's very tonally off, has a lot of the read minimization I see in scum often, and to top it off the reason for it seems totally made up.

Tonereading profi's 86 and 114 as a bit defensive.

And yeah this is along the same lines. I think I talked about this earlier but basically it's like a strange scumread on profii except she hesitates to really scumread profii properly. Like, duckling, you remember Rei in 1791 right? This is like that, scum trying to look uninformed imo.

That's a lot to take in. Some thoughts:

Reevaluated my read on Rask, I think my logic was flawed as people have pointed out.
UNVOTE:

Getting townvibes from brass and elbirn. Magna's frustration towards spam posters seems genuine and town.

Not sure if Gustavo would act so belligerent if he were scum, wouldn't scum want to avoid drawing that kind of attention?

I need to get to posting so that I'm above that 20 post mark.
I'd hate to be under any scrutiny.

This pings me slightly, unless this was just a joke?

Still trying to internalize everything that just happened and I haven't really had many chances to interact with people so I feel pretty behind.

I might just be tunneling at this point? but I sorta dislike the backtracking @ rask and most other things about this post. Like, nothing here is really AI. Magna not liking spamposting is a position either alignment can hold and idk how town gets this read. Gustavo read is a bit more understandable but like that's just playstyle anyway. Even if you think Hitalt's joke is serious, how in the world can that only "ping you a bit"?

Well you can try no

Why are dave and chickadee sscum? you seem to imply they are.

I pointed it out specifically to try and respond, and it's worked so far because I got brass to explain his read.

I wasn't really satisfied to dave's answer in 459 and his response to t_w's question in 471 is also unsatisfying. He doesn't explain why he would be satisfied with that answer, it's just a straight matter-of-fact yes which kind of pings me. It reads like he doesn't even want to clarify his point. Also 85 seems like safe fence-sitting fluff but that's been pointed out and it was so long ago.

I feel like chickadee has less content than me and I've been lurking pretty hard by this point so that's pretty sus but she could also just be in the same situation I've been in.

Read in chick for lurking by someone who had kinda been lurking is v meh. I did that in my first scumgame iirc and so did Myloninja.

sky- I didn’t like that unvote but I appreciate not everyone has loads of time - I certainly avoid games any bigger than this because I am not sharp enough to keep up properly so I’d like to say to sky please provide 3 scum reads and why

Three top scumreads for the moment, in order:
dave's slot, as I've already discussed
Ausuka for sheeping/hopping onto wagons, lack of reads, lack of reasonings, etc. I said earlier that I think there's at least one opportunistic scum on my wagon and I think this is the most likely option in regards to that.
Flubber, I don't like how he jumped on chickadee for "PT-slipping" when it's clearly stated in the rules, and there's the whole "coasting" post that Magna pointed out

I lost my grasp on the chickadee scumread after rereading her and seeing more content than I remembered and I like her most recent interaction/vote on flubber.

Skygazer, can you point to any specific Elbirn posts that have you town reading him?

22, 75, 77 and 79 feel like he's genuinely trying to create content early on. I don't really get how people are scumreading these for being pushy when the pushiness was useful in helping us get out of rvs. 125 doesn't have game content but I'm reading it as relaxed/carefree which is a towntell imo. I also like 507.

read on me is ??? because I was first on her wagon and gave reasoning for it. Again, don't see how this read is real.

Strong townreads so far in order: brass, MoI, Andrius, and elbirn

brass has lots of good content which imo definitely outweighs the fluff, and I like the fact that he's genuinely trying to keep his fluff posting down now
MoI continues to post good content and I like their reads for the most part
I like Andrius's 570 and like I stated earlier I don't see gus's behavior coming from scum
I talked about elbirn in my last post

I would consider this to be a bad townpool although tbf this isn't really scummy but these players are worth looking at if Sky does red.

@Skygazer want readlist from you, also response to flubber answers you said you were waiting for

Response to flubber is above.

Readlist

Strong Town

Magna
Andrius
Elbirn
xyzzx
brass

Town Lean

profii
Rask
Inferno
Ausuka - has some good posts, I'm just offput by her tunnelling of me

I Don't Know How To Sort These Players To Be Quite Honest

dram
the_worst
Taly - dave was scummy, Taly has made some good posts since he's been here tho
Chickadee

Scum Lean

HeWhoSwims - I don't like 832 where he has like six different scumreads he's willing to vote for

Strong Scum

flubber
HitAlt

Very bad readslist imo, especially the strong scum section. Flubber and hitalt scumpool is very convenient. She also never really attempts to sort dram at all.

Tonereading profi's 86 and 114 as a bit defensive.

This also seems fake to me? Like, tonereading as x alignment is normal. The fact that Sky talked about tonereading it as a quality (defensiveness) and added "a bit" to soften it makes it look faked.

Not sure what you mean about tonereading as a quality? I can say that that wasn't meant to soften anything, more to point out that profii wasn't being full blown defensive, just a bit. In hindsight though it just looks like he was trying to get information out of Gus which is NAI to me.

Don't like that last series of flubber posts (975 to 978).

HitAlt's 979 is flaily enough for me to keep my current vote for now, though.

More flubber and hitalt pushing???
also, i don't really see the "a bit" defensive thing?

at this point I realized I had bitten off more than I could chew and stopped quoting things

[Ausuka]

I don't get why scum MOI with town andrius is not possible.

[Skygazer]

How does scum-MoI and town-Andrius not fit the narrative with dram exactly? And I never said that scum-MoI and scum-Andrius isn't a possibility (I do find it extremely unlikely), I'm just saying that Chicka is clear except for that one extreme circumstance which would never happen.

pedit: will get to Ausuka wall soon

[Inferno390]

1) no. SK is scum imo and the optimal play for anyone but tw who shot Dram is obviously to stay quiet and shoot tw at night.

2) andrius was obvtown and I doubt MOI faked an inno on his buddy like that. chick is town because Nosferatu is town.

3) hmmm it's almost like you don't need to literally case someone for them to be potential scum

3)

1) SK is not scum and the fact that you are saying that makes my thing you are scum afraid of getting shot. You are throwing far too much shade the killing role’s direction.

2) But by this, MOI is conftown, because Andy confirmed he got the banana.

3) Considering that most of the thread disagrees with you on brass!scum imo, a case would be appreciated. Thanks. Which is not to mention the fact that by throwing HWS and brass on the same level, you’re implying that there was 2 scum on Dram’s wagon...?

[Ausuka]

i have a new policy of not responding to inferno390

[Inferno390]

I suddenly got the strange feeling my wariness of MOI is being played against me by someone and I don’t know who.

[Skygazer]

Agreed. In my onion I think the first reaction test (elbirn) is fine but the second one (rask) a bit LAMIST especially considering he never really followed up on it other than his read on inferno.
VOTE: rask

This is just a scumpost. It's very tonally off, has a lot of the read minimization I see in scum often, and to top it off the reason for it seems totally made up.

What's read minimization? And it wasn't totally made up, at the time my thought process was "oh Elbirn did a weird rvs vote that would obviously generate discussion so maybe Rask wants in on that credit for making a vote that generates discussion." Again, it was a poorly thought out interpretation but def not "totally made up."

Tonereading profi's 86 and 114 as a bit defensive.

And yeah this is along the same lines. I think I talked about this earlier but basically it's like a strange scumread on profii except she hesitates to really scumread profii properly. Like, duckling, you remember Rei in 1791 right? This is like that, scum trying to look uninformed imo.

It was page 5, no one has any actual information on page 5 :/

That's a lot to take in. Some thoughts:

Reevaluated my read on Rask, I think my logic was flawed as people have pointed out.
UNVOTE:

Getting townvibes from brass and elbirn. Magna's frustration towards spam posters seems genuine and town.

Not sure if Gustavo would act so belligerent if he were scum, wouldn't scum want to avoid drawing that kind of attention?

I need to get to posting so that I'm above that 20 post mark.
I'd hate to be under any scrutiny.

This pings me slightly, unless this was just a joke?

Still trying to internalize everything that just happened and I haven't really had many chances to interact with people so I feel pretty behind.

I might just be tunneling at this point? but I sorta dislike the backtracking @ rask and most other things about this post. Like, nothing here is really AI. Magna not liking spamposting is a position either alignment can hold and idk how town gets this read. Gustavo read is a bit more understandable but like that's just playstyle anyway. Even if you think Hitalt's joke is serious, how in the world can that only "ping you a bit"?

Do you think I'd be playing within my wincondition as town to just continue on with a vote that I've realized is poorly reasoned? Like I realize that backtracking can be scummy under circumstances but I also think it's important for town to back off when they realize they're wrong for obvious reasons.

Well you can try no

Why are dave and chickadee sscum? you seem to imply they are.

I pointed it out specifically to try and respond, and it's worked so far because I got brass to explain his read.

I wasn't really satisfied to dave's answer in 459 and his response to t_w's question in 471 is also unsatisfying. He doesn't explain why he would be satisfied with that answer, it's just a straight matter-of-fact yes which kind of pings me. It reads like he doesn't even want to clarify his point. Also 85 seems like safe fence-sitting fluff but that's been pointed out and it was so long ago.

I feel like chickadee has less content than me and I've been lurking pretty hard by this point so that's pretty sus but she could also just be in the same situation I've been in.

Read in chick for lurking by someone who had kinda been lurking is v meh. I did that in my first scumgame iirc and so did Myloninja.

I mean, imo I thought that chicka was lurking harder than me at that point and just because I'm lurking as town for personal reasons doesn't mean that everyone else who lurks is automatically town too.

sky- I didn’t like that unvote but I appreciate not everyone has loads of time - I certainly avoid games any bigger than this because I am not sharp enough to keep up properly so I’d like to say to sky please provide 3 scum reads and why

Three top scumreads for the moment, in order:
dave's slot, as I've already discussed
Ausuka for sheeping/hopping onto wagons, lack of reads, lack of reasonings, etc. I said earlier that I think there's at least one opportunistic scum on my wagon and I think this is the most likely option in regards to that.
Flubber, I don't like how he jumped on chickadee for "PT-slipping" when it's clearly stated in the rules, and there's the whole "coasting" post that Magna pointed out

I lost my grasp on the chickadee scumread after rereading her and seeing more content than I remembered and I like her most recent interaction/vote on flubber.

Skygazer, can you point to any specific Elbirn posts that have you town reading him?

22, 75, 77 and 79 feel like he's genuinely trying to create content early on. I don't really get how people are scumreading these for being pushy when the pushiness was useful in helping us get out of rvs. 125 doesn't have game content but I'm reading it as relaxed/carefree which is a towntell imo. I also like 507.

read on me is ??? because I was first on her wagon and gave reasoning for it. Again, don't see how this read is real.

At that point I had forgotten about your initial vote on me and was also referring to you sheeping MoI's flubber vote.

Strong townreads so far in order: brass, MoI, Andrius, and elbirn

brass has lots of good content which imo definitely outweighs the fluff, and I like the fact that he's genuinely trying to keep his fluff posting down now
MoI continues to post good content and I like their reads for the most part
I like Andrius's 570 and like I stated earlier I don't see gus's behavior coming from scum
I talked about elbirn in my last post

I would consider this to be a bad townpool although tbf this isn't really scummy but these players are worth looking at if Sky does red.

@Skygazer want readlist from you, also response to flubber answers you said you were waiting for

Response to flubber is above.

Readlist

Strong Town

Magna
Andrius
Elbirn
xyzzx
brass

Town Lean

profii
Rask
Inferno
Ausuka - has some good posts, I'm just offput by her tunnelling of me

I Don't Know How To Sort These Players To Be Quite Honest

dram
the_worst
Taly - dave was scummy, Taly has made some good posts since he's been here tho
Chickadee

Scum Lean

HeWhoSwims - I don't like 832 where he has like six different scumreads he's willing to vote for

Strong Scum

flubber
HitAlt

Very bad readslist imo, especially the strong scum section. Flubber and hitalt scumpool is very convenient. She also never really attempts to sort dram at all.

Again, D1. I'm very bad at getting a hold of the game on D1, especially if you look at some of my townreads. Someone else already pointed out that it's not unreasonable for me to find the two widely scumread players as my strongest scum especially if they're actually behaving scummy (which they were). It's just unfortunate that flubber flipped town and Gamma is likely town.

Tonereading profi's 86 and 114 as a bit defensive.

This also seems fake to me? Like, tonereading as x alignment is normal. The fact that Sky talked about tonereading it as a quality (defensiveness) and added "a bit" to soften it makes it look faked.

Not sure what you mean about tonereading as a quality? I can say that that wasn't meant to soften anything, more to point out that profii wasn't being full blown defensive, just a bit. In hindsight though it just looks like he was trying to get information out of Gus which is NAI to me.

Don't like that last series of flubber posts (975 to 978).

HitAlt's 979 is flaily enough for me to keep my current vote for now, though.

More flubber and hitalt pushing???
also, i don't really see the "a bit" defensive thing?

Is pushing my scumreads a bad thing??? And why don't you see the "a bit" defensive thing? Like it's obvious that profii wasn't going completely flaily and fervently defending himself but I still argue that his posts there had a defensive quality to them.

[Skygazer]

Ausuka your thought process regarding me seems really genuine and I'm glad you're finally outlining it but I feel like you're just in confbias mode and tunnelling like Taly

[Skygazer]

I wish I was on a PC rn.

Almost51
MagnaofIllusion
brassherald
the worst
Skygazer
xyzzy
HeWhoSwims
Profii

^ So apart from the person who might be my fruitvend target this should be a complete list of where scum are right? obviously not looking for "you could be scum!!!!" comments just wanna make sure I'm being reasonable.

This does seem really reasonable btw

[Nosferatu]

Seriously? Xyzzy was, as far as everyone knew, lynched, and said that they were town in what was supposed to be twilight. Like unless xyzzy has a history of twilight trolling or knew they weren't actually lynched (not really possible since Pine hadn't gotten online to resolve the whole thing until afterwards) then I don't see how xyzzy can still be scum to some people. There has to be some frustrated scum in the group that's doubling down on this and trying to push the lynch through anyways. By that I mean A50 and profii

I think it's pro-scum to pretend you're town and twilight, and most scum i see do it if they're on-site for the hammer. I read xyxxy's twilight posts and they don't really seem like anything to flip a read over.

Therefore I'm surmising perhaps scum were on to it and raised the issue to get themselves out of a hole with that lynch.

That's unlikely. Pine would have to go to scum PT and hear out their argument while thread was locked, if they even have daytalk (i haven't read the rules), when he has no reason to do so when checking the thread for the hammer vote.

[Inferno390]

I don't get why scum MOI with town andrius is not possible.

This is fair

[Skygazer]

I think it's pro-scum to pretend you're town and twilight, and most scum i see do it if they're on-site for the hammer. I read xyxxy's twilight posts and they don't really seem like anything to flip a read over.

That's fair, maybe I'm just biased because I've been townreading them

[Gamma Emerald]

Andrius was MOI's "sounding board?"

I don't like that comparison, it sound suspiciously like MOI was just using him to make himself sound better....

Keeping this in mind for later.

what do you think sounding board means

[Gamma Emerald]

Ok almost
but let's say i didn't believe you when you say you're scum here and scumclaiming and what have you
in a hypothetical, if you had actually rolled town instead who do you think is most likely scum here?

wait why is a50 claiming scum

[Gamma Emerald]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

SKY WHY ARE YOU SO DIFFERENT HERE

oh yeah, he actually looks pretty dedicated to solving there
gonna have to cross-reference that to here to get a definitive statement but I'm excited for what may come

[Gamma Emerald]

Also everyone can chill re:Worst's obvious trolling regading Rask. Regardless of theworst's actual alignment he has reasons to be obsfucating in what he expected was twilight about his target. Rask turns up dead and no obvious Town thought process body appears and hang the Serial Killer I mean theworst. It's pretty simple. Duckling isn't Town but he's not stupid either so the chances of him actually taking that shot are basically 0/100.

okay I figured it probably got too ridiculous at some stage, I was praying for a ninja thread lock

VOTE: Skygazer

Ah caught up

VOTE: xyzzy

wat

[Inferno390]

Andrius was MOI's "sounding board?"

I don't like that comparison, it sound suspiciously like MOI was just using him to make himself sound better....

Keeping this in mind for later.

what do you think sounding board means

I think that it means that you’re using a person or thing as a control for the things you say, so you can test whether or not they sound reasonable or not.
Which given the circumstances sounds like he’s saying he was using Andy’s willingness to agree with him to make his arguments sound better. Which is not something that would come from a town mindset.

Going to work on this case on MOI and try to have it done before the day is over.