Open 731: Twin Trap (Game Over)

[Almost50]

And on the off chance we actually are running up the given TPR?

Then we didn't bloody lynch them, and they will be shot overnight anyway.

[Almost50]

and then scum intentionally leaves the PR alive to throw confusion into town

Let them do that and I'll be happier than a kitten sucking on her mama's nipple.

[Almost50]

I mean, seriously.. this is a 9-players setup. How many chances to nail a TPR can scum afford to miss?

[Eragon]

A lot of Eragon's posts contain only fluff. (35, 60, 62) I don't like it. VOTE: Eragon

FOS: Inferno. I don't like how much time he spends defending himself and how little scumhunting he does.

let me break some things down for you.
1)Fluff is normally NAI, unless thats almost all they are doing the whole game
2)Fluff is especially NAI when its explaining something previous, like my post about "Sorry my post is a pain to read..." was explaining the stuff.
3)cherrypicking the fluff over content and voting for that is slightly wolfy, but could be just ignorant play.

So are you calling A50 mechanical? And is that the towny, scummy, or neither?? Just asking to see your pinion on A50

Unclear yet. I can't determine his intentions based on just this because like I said it is NAI. When he posts more and we get an idea what his motivation is we'll know if it's genuine or not.

ok

I think BuJaber is town, but it's not because he reminded the Mod something was missing in the OP.

Why don't you tell us why you think BuJaber is town? Is it because he doesn't want to get townread for asking about the setup?

Basically. It's the way he's handled inferno in general. Just all out attacking the idea. Going after the guy who is calling him confirmed town. It looks like town who sees bad logic and is calling it out. That said, he's voting manatee over inferno so it's not like he's doing anything that would remove inferno from the game, making it a relatively safe town cred play for scum. That's why he's not my strongest town read. It's enough that I don't want to Lynch him today though. You voted Eragon for fluff posting. What do you think of his content posts? Why does the fluff outweigh those?

I like the idea behind the post, "It looks like town, who sees bad logic and calls it out, but could be towncred grab."
seems a little bit fencesitty but in a situation like that not much you can do.

See, this is where I know A50 is doing a misrep. Because I’m not trying to convince him that VT is interchangeable with likely. What I’m trying to convince him of is that VT means, by extension, likely town. I have not at one point said that likely town means VT. In fact, I have been arguing against it. To say otherwise is twisting my words around to fit the worst possible scenario. Classic straw man.

appealing to the other people about A50's push on him.
he thinks that he can't get a50 to stop pushing him, so he talks to the other people and gives his explanation about everything and is hoping to be understood and TR'd by other people.
I dont like his absolute focus on defending himself about the "likely town /=/ VT" stuff and his shade on A50 for mis-understanding

The content posts are okay. Sometimes Eragon repeats stuff others have said before him. I like how he called inferno "over-exxagerating" (54) and how he doesn't want to have people at L-1 this early (61).

like as in 'sarcastic' "like" or like as in "like"?

Oh yeah egg only played a scum game with me

Manatee I don't think you're very much perceived as a strong town read, so I'm questioning why minimal effort posts sound like a good idea coming from you

I'd like to see more out of poseidon but honestly I guess its really hard to say anything else than whats been said already

Unless you're Fromage that is, to which its a perfect time to spout shady as F criticisms while showing halfhearted support for most popular wagon
Okay maybe its not that suspicious, especially after he clarified but it still seems cherry picky, especially when one of those posts is a legitimate question from a newer member

I think Inferno is flailing even harder

Okay let me go back and count the votes

he counts the votes here, and says he did.
Wait for later for more on this.

As for my current thoughts on which person I find scummier, I think I'd be willing to go full in on manatee being scum if Inferno is scum

Although then again his non commitment then turnaround for his inferno vote feels weird regardless

I guess there's only a few scenarios:
1. Both are Scum: Either manatee wanted to soft bus but was called out on it and flip flopped or they were trying to offer inferno soft advice during the day as a scum partner
2. Inferno is Scum, Manatee is Town: It would have to be nerves or some kind of play-style that involves not explaining himself (manatee I mean). I personally detest this play-style. I'll have to check into Manatee's other games to see if he's just like this
3. Inferno Town, Manatee Scum: Why??????????? I don't see manatee's response as something natural, hesitance to vote while also saying behavior is scummy just doesn't add up to me, In this situation i feel like scum would just keep quiet and let town roll itself, not voting on a wagon that hasn't fully formed yet doesn't earn you any points so this situation is either motivated by stupid or is unlikely
4. Both are town: we all lose here. Maximum idiot has been reached. Inferno is just being bad and manatee is letting themselves burn right next to Inferno

I'd like to think and hope 1 is the most likely scenario, but I really need to look into Manatee to see if 2 is a possibility

However, I think Its more solid that Inferno is Scum, so thats where I'm at right now. I'll be back after I do some stuff and look into manatee

parts of this are towny, parts are scummy

Towny-
>looking at every angle
> thought through and just towny thoughts on it

Scummy-
>"I'd like to think and hope 1 is the most likely scenario,"
pings me because "I

want

them to both be scum" sounds like something a wolf says that lets them push someone but back off later.

@Fromage: No, Egg has had good posts since the initial exchange, and his posts read as natural and scumhunting. I’m leaning town for him.

GameNBurger is making me lol. Not only do I know that I am comfortably within my Town meta in terms of weird play, the fact that he’s 1) making associations this early and 2) lockscureading me for play that is not actually that bad and then using it to build a case around Manatee is terrible and not something I can see coming from town.

LOL.
here is another OMGUS
associations are VERY possible this early.
(in a game on my homesite, manatee and I were scum together, and manatee's RvS vote was "O crap, rolled scum, time to bus /vote Eragon")
and no one looked at it twice because it was RvS

who said he was "lock scum reading you"
and again over-exaggeration and defensiveness off-puts me and makes me still think you are scum.

tinfoil: "using it to build a case around manatee is terrible"
> WTF how did you already find both of us as scum, now I need to disprove your read by saying its terrible
*tinfoil only*

Oho
Burger has scumslipped in an attempt to get rid of me
He doesn’t know that the only scumgame I’ve ever played is one of the marathon games from last month. (A fact that both drives me crazy and I am very proud of because it gives me very good townmeta)
I have never been scumpartners with Manatee, not have I been partners with anyone else in the regular style of game.
VOTE: Burger

Join me, brothers. I have found the true scum!

lol. a tiny reason to OMGUS someone.
town wouldn't say the person scum slipped and then OMGUS them.
Town would correct them and just think it was a mis-understanding.
this post almost never comes from town.

Conflicted about burger. On the one hand it does seem like he's jumping to conclusions based on little evidence but that's slso a whole lot of effort just to build a case on inferno who is lynchbait frankly.

why is inferno lynchbait and not scum?

@Burger: So you think Inferno is scum? If so, what's keeping you from voting him?

>keep this in mind as well as what I said earlier about Burger counting the votes

Guys
Just realized A50 is hunting for the PRs.

@Egg: because GameNBurger is using a non-existent scumteam pairing from a previous game to try and make it look like Manatee and I have experience playing with each imo. We don’t. This is a case of Lynch All Liars.

shades A50, and again, scum reading someone for a mistake is -ev

I really wanted him to adress me more directly and see how he responds to the pressure before turning up the heat with an L-1

His response was super bad and has stayed constant to his behavior this game

HOWEVER

He is right that I screwed up reading the 1868 game, the mod used red text for replaced players in that game and inferno was replaced
Inferno was not scum but manatee was, I didn’t look deep into the game since manatee replaced out relatively easily

So I am very sorry about that and that’s my bad but it doesn’t contribute or take away anything from my reads on inferno since it was null anyways

Someone sell me on the case of manatee being a safer bet than inferno for lynch

I know out there is the possibility inferno being just a bad player flailing badly but I feel like this bad play is bad scumplay rather than bad town play

Manatee makes me uncomfortable with his posts and is definitely my number 2 but I could still chop it up to mindlessness and playstyle more than I could chop up Infernos action to bad town play


Anyways my vote stands with inferno unless I feel like suddenly manatee is a safer bet

VOTE: inferno

I’m out and about but I’ll take any questions, it just might take a while for me to respond

Fuck as I was reading this I saw that burger actually did announce L-1. make it bigger next time please, or not stuck inside a big post
>ignore the stuff I said earlier about counting votes, but still the voting question from a50

says he can chalk up manatee to play style but not Inferno to play style?

Woah stop
How am I being flaily, exactly?

that "woah stop" feels forced to me.

I think your reactions are entirely reactionary rather than logical jumps or any sort of serious thought

You don’t have coherent scumreads but OMGUS anyone that seems to seriously hold an accusation against you

I read this as panicky flailing rather than believe your bad enough (read: delusional) to seriously beleive all of the people you think are scum are still scum, so you read more reactionary rather than someone who has a coherent idea of what’s going on

That being said:

Your reaction to my mistake was justified, I think it’s reachy since I read the entire game as null to anything and dimssed it but I do understand your response there

I agree he has mostly been reactionary and OMGUS'ing people that vote/Sr him.
I dont really like the part about "bad enough to seriously believe everyone pushing you is scum"
because, while, of course, not everyone will be scum, but if Inferno truly is town, then there will definitely have been scum pushing him

Fromage, why does eragons fluff outweigh his content?

Careful. I didn't say Eragon's fluff outweighs his content. I said I don't like his fluff. I'm not even sure if I scumread him.

then why did you vote me if you dont SR me???

I think your reactions are entirely reactionary rather than logical jumps or any sort of serious thought

You don’t have coherent scumreads but OMGUS anyone that seems to seriously hold an accusation against you

I read this as panicky flailing rather than believe your bad enough (read: delusional) to seriously beleive all of the people you think are scum are still scum, so you read more reactionary rather than someone who has a coherent idea of what’s going on

That being said:

Your reaction to my mistake was justified, I think it’s reachy since I read the entire game as null to anything and dimssed it but I do understand your response there

So your entire read on me is an Attack on Playstyle then.
I see how it is.

I also have only seriously stated three people are scum and redacted one of those reads, so to call into question my reads like you just did is ridiculous.

AtE right here. and over-defensiveness/exaggeration YET AGAIN.

he didnt call into question your READS.
He called into question how you GOT your SR's, which was by OMGUS'ing anyone that was currently pushing you.

[Eragon]

I mean, seriously.. this is a 9-players setup. How many chances to nail a TPR can scum afford to miss?

force the Scum to claim a PR

(the PR they're immune to)

Iirc, you said yourself that discussing PRs is anti-town. I agree and think the same applies to discussing optimal scum tactics. Do you disagree?

This isn't just "optimal", it's a rule (unless they really really don't know how to play the game).

But the reason I said that is to alert the

TPRs

that's what's gonna happen, so if we get a PR claim they

do not CC

(and if they flip overnight we will know whom to lynch anyway). The TPR will now take that claim and avoid targeting that person becasie they know this is the scum that is IMMUNE to their action.

With some luck the TPR may catch the OTHER scum overnight and then they can claim on D2 leading to a town win with 2 successive lynches.

interesting thought process here,
the problem is, now that you threw this thought out there, scum will likely not do it to WIFOM the hell out of us.
I like the thought process and think its towny tho

Okay
And on the off chance we actually are running up the given TPR?
See, this looks like an attempt to throw WIFOM into any claim we get off the lynch. We get a PR claim and no CC, and then scum intentionally leaves the PR alive to throw confusion into town and perhaps grab a mislynch.

Also reads like an excuse to run up people to get claims.

this is just pure shade on A50, saying that he wants to be able to mis-lynch TPR
honestly it doesn't matter if TPR is lynched or not,(will explain) but lynching the TPR throws more sus on scum than a cit Lynch, so that is a 1 for 1 trade, which is actually helpful to town.
(explained) So we have 2 TI and 5 VT, so no TP's.
If a TPR claims, they will OBVIOUSLY claim their real role, and this means that scum uses the opposite immune goon to kill that TPR, and nothing will happen with night actions. So a TPR Lynch is decidedly worse than NK.

also I dont see how this is an excuse to get claims ???

and then scum intentionally leaves the PR alive to throw confusion into town

Let them do that and I'll be happier than a kitten sucking on her mama's nipple.

YEEE :3

[GameNBurger]

To answer some quick questions since I’m phone posting

Inferno can die and I’d be happy with it, he’s done nothing to convince me he’s town, if you wanna hammer state intent so he can claim, I’d rather not blindhammer

To briefly respond to the larger post

Sorry for not holding the L-1, that’s my bad

I hold that 1 is the thing I hope for since I’m that case the game is set and done for me, as I strongly beleive inferno to be scum and manatee is a softer number two pick that gets stronger in my mind if Inferno is scum

Thus I really don’t want a scenario where inferno is scum but manatee isn’t , as manatee is gonna have a real uphill battle to climb with me if he’s town since that’ll be my number one guy tomorrow

Idk if that makes sense or not again phone posting so I apologize for the lucid ness

The reason I’d rather chop up manatee to playstyle rather than inferno is that reactionary is not a valid playstyle while withdrawn play is a strategy many people employ (although I personally disagree with the way most people play with their reasonings close to their belt)

To elaborate on my point about inferno not being able to beleive everyone pushing him is scum, while he’s voted 3, far more people have cast him into doubt and until he really posts a definitive reads list so I can see where he thinks scum definitively lies

I think that answers everything, do call me out if I missed anything as I am phoneposting right now

[ManateeDude]

Ok the thing with inferno Is I got towny vibes from his fumbling, now hes starting to freak out and flail, and I'm still not sure on his alignment. Is there any meta I can read up on? On mobile atm.

[Inferno390]

Will everyone please stop saying I’m flailing?
It’s really starting to get on my nerves, probably more than the fact that you’re all going to let me sit at L-1.

[BuJaber]

I'm not even sure if I scumread him.

Read: I don't (seriously) scumread eragon.

Why the vote then?

force the Scum to claim a PR

(the PR they're immune to)

Iirc, you said yourself that discussing PRs is anti-town. I agree and think the same applies to discussing optimal scum tactics. Do you disagree?

This isn't just "optimal", it's a rule (unless they really really don't know how to play the game).

But the reason I said that is to alert the

TPRs

that's what's gonna happen, so if we get a PR claim they

do not CC

(and if they flip overnight we will know whom to lynch anyway). The TPR will now take that claim and avoid targeting that person becasie they know this is the scum that is IMMUNE to their action.

With some luck the TPR may catch the OTHER scum overnight and then they can claim on D2 leading to a town win with 2 successive lynches.

LAMIST much?

Okay
And on the off chance we actually are running up the given TPR?
See, this looks like an attempt to throw WIFOM into any claim we get off the lynch. We get a PR claim and no CC, and then scum intentionally leaves the PR alive to throw confusion into town and perhaps grab a mislynch.

Also reads like an excuse to run up people to get claims.

If you just took a second to think this through you'll know it's wrong. Also don't make him continue a conversation that shouldn't have started in the first place.

@Inferno - my statement is missing the words 'as town'. Inferno is lynchbait as town. He could be scum. But honestly as unhelpful as his posting has been (mainly defending himself) gun to my head I'd say he's town here. He feels attacked and spends all his time and effort defending himself. I'm not adept at reading someone like him because he's the type that makes it really difficult to townread. He distracts himself and distracts everyone and gets emotional.
Now granted I haven't seem his scum game but given that happens with him as town you have to really try and gauge his overall tone/motivations.

For example earlier I thought he was maybe buddying me. But considering he is attacking pretty much anyone who critiques or votes for him, there doesn't seem to be any interest in making friends. Unless he really thinks that if he convinces me he's town that I alone can change everyone's mind. That would be hilariously wrong as I'm rarely a town leader in any game, let alone in a playerbase that includes A50 and a few 5+ year veterans. So if it's not buddying then does that line of thinking and bad logic regarding my question to the mod make sense from scum pov? I don't really think so. Scum would be more self-conscious about using bad logic like that.

[LastManStanding]

Votecount 1.4

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Inferno390

(4): Almost50, ManateeDude, Poseidon, GameNBurger (L-1)

Eragon

(1): Fromage

ManateeDude

(3): Eragon, Egg, BuJaber

GameNBurger

(1): Inferno390

Deadline

: (expired on 2018-08-14 08:00:00)

[Eragon]

Tbh I’d like to get a vote off of Inferno just for safety purposes.


We have 12 days left, don’t want to risk someone hammering at all

[BuJaber]

Wow that is a long deadline for a 9 player game.

But tbh in this setup quickhammer guarantees that inferno is town and that at least 1 scum is on the wagon. It would have been a good thing.

Did inferno claim?

[BuJaber]

Poseidon I call upon thee. We have lots of content now. Thoughts?

[BuJaber]

A50 do you have recent scum open games you can link?

[Poseidon]

Oho
Burger has scumslipped in an attempt to get rid of me
He doesn’t know that the only scumgame I’ve ever played is one of the marathon games from last month. (A fact that both drives me crazy and I am very proud of because it gives me very good townmeta)
I have never been scumpartners with Manatee, not have I been partners with anyone else in the regular style of game.
VOTE: Burger

Join me, brothers. I have found the true scum!

Yeah I stand by my vote.

Semi reply to Jaber, phone posting so shortish reply. I’m sensing a good depth of logic with Burger, and a solid understanding of the game. Can’t say if that’s pro-town read but it makes me a little confident

[Egg]

I fell behind. Will try to catch up tonight or tomorrow. If it doesn't happen, best bet is Sunday night.

[BuJaber]

@Inferno - my statement is missing the words 'as town'. Inferno is lynchbait as town. He could be scum. But honestly as unhelpful as his posting has been (mainly defending himself) gun to my head I'd say he's town here. He feels attacked and spends all his time and effort defending himself. I'm not adept at reading someone like him because he's the type that makes it really difficult to townread. He distracts himself and distracts everyone and gets emotional.
Now granted I haven't seem his scum game but given that happens with him as town you have to really try and gauge his overall tone/motivations.

For example earlier I thought he was maybe buddying me. But considering he is attacking pretty much anyone who critiques or votes for him, there doesn't seem to be any interest in making friends. Unless he really thinks that if he convinces me he's town that I alone can change everyone's mind. That would be hilariously wrong as I'm rarely a town leader in any game, let alone in a playerbase that includes A50 and a few 5+ year veterans. So if it's not buddying then does that line of thinking and bad logic regarding my question to the mod make sense from scum pov? I don't really think so. Scum would be more self-conscious about using bad logic like that.

This is @Eragon not @Inferno if not clear. Sorry

[Fromage]

like as in 'sarcastic' "like" or like as in "like"?

like without sarcasm. I think these are positive contributions to town.

associations are VERY possible this early.

Maybe these associations are possible but imho they aren't very useful. Basing your read of a player on another player who hasn't flipped yet is very speculative. (This might be different in Lylo)

this post almost never comes from town.

Are you saying Inferno is almost certainly scum? He exagerates and OMGUS all the time. (At least in this game. I want to take a look at his other games later).

then why did you vote me if you dont SR me???

Because I wanted you to stop fluffposting and I didn't scumread anyone else either.

[Fromage]

Eragon's wall feels townie btw. He sticks his head out and gives us something to discuss.

[Fromage]

I don't like how Burger put Inferno at L-1 and is fine with quicklynching him. Yes, inferno's behaviour has been consistent but I doubt this is a scum tell. In 58 Burger says he wants to hear more from poseidon and me before he puts inferno at L-1. Poseidon posts hardly anything 76 and I post very little. Then he just puts inferno at L-1. In 58 he said he feels uneasy quicklynching. But I don't recognize any uneasiness in 130 .

I also don't like 97. It contains a lot of speculation and focuses on one single interaction between manatee and inferno. Imho it's WIFOM. In addition to that I don't understand why he looks at manatee's meta but not at inferno's 98. Other people mentioned the possibility of inferno being lynchbait. Burger just excludes this possibility. 114 I cannot follow his thought process.

To conclude, I think Burger might be scum due to his inconsistent behaviour.
VOTE: GameNBurger

[Fromage]

@Inferno: Could you please link us some of your games and maybe give a short summary?

If you do this, please also explain how your meta has improved and if this holds true in our game.

I swear my meta has improved, BuJaber.

[Fromage]

V/LA from Friday until Monday

[Eragon]

@Inferno - my statement is missing the words 'as town'. Inferno is lynchbait as town. He could be scum. But honestly as unhelpful as his posting has been (mainly defending himself) gun to my head I'd say he's town here. He feels attacked and spends all his time and effort defending himself. I'm not adept at reading someone like him because he's the type that makes it really difficult to townread. He distracts himself and distracts everyone and gets emotional.
Now granted I haven't seem his scum game but given that happens with him as town you have to really try and gauge his overall tone/motivations.

For example earlier I thought he was maybe buddying me. But considering he is attacking pretty much anyone who critiques or votes for him, there doesn't seem to be any interest in making friends. Unless he really thinks that if he convinces me he's town that I alone can change everyone's mind. That would be hilariously wrong as I'm rarely a town leader in any game, let alone in a playerbase that includes A50 and a few 5+ year veterans. So if it's not buddying then does that line of thinking and bad logic regarding my question to the mod make sense from scum pov? I don't really think so. Scum would be more self-conscious about using bad logic like that.

This is @Eragon not @Inferno if not clear. Sorry

Oh lol.

Ok I can understand your reasoning here. But technIcally the same can be said for most people.
Either lynchbait or scum

[Eragon]

like as in 'sarcastic' "like" or like as in "like"?

like without sarcasm. I think these are positive contributions to town.

associations are VERY possible this early.

Maybe these associations are possible but imho they aren't very useful. Basing your read of a player on another player who hasn't flipped yet is very speculative. (This might be different in Lylo)

this post almost never comes from town.

Are you saying Inferno is almost certainly scum? He exagerates and OMGUS all the time. (At least in this game. I want to take a look at his other games later).

then why did you vote me if you dont SR me???

Because I wanted you to stop fluffposting and I didn't scumread anyone else either.

1. Ok
2. I'm not saying they are very helpful, I'm saying that (Inferno I think) when he said that associations can't be used D1 that he was wrong and that associations can be found/used D1
3. I'm pretty confident in scum!inferno. And the post, from my point of view, never comes from town. I could be wrong of course, so I'm still open, but I don't think town!inferno is a possible thing.
4. Oh lol

[Inferno390]

@Inferno: Could you please link us some of your games and maybe give a short summary?

If you do this, please also explain how your meta has improved and if this holds true in our game.

I swear my meta has improved, BuJaber.

I’m actually on vacation visiting family, and won’t be able to do anything other than phone post until about Monday. Will get to this though. (Though you can see what games I’ve been in by checking the topics I’ve posted in I want to point out)

I will say that I’m actually kind of disappointed with myself that this is the direction my play has gone today. This is a lot closer to my early game meta than my more current games imho, and one of the things I’ve been trying to do is improve my play onsite so it’s got a lot more logic behind it and not nearly so lynchbaity.