NY 213 - Game Over!

[Golden Robster]

lol.. I dunno. I'm kinda buying into this conspiracy theory of JarJar and TBG. It really feeds me ego because im called them both out early game.

[Golden Robster]

lol.. I dunno. I'm kinda buying into this conspiracy theory of JarJar and TBG. It really feeds me ego because im called them both out early game.

TBG could also jsut be a VT and JarJar unvoted because he felt really guilty

VOTE: JarJar

how do you get from the first reasoning that JJD and TBG are scum buddies to TBG being VT?

if JJD was scum he would not be this transparent and brazen enough in his openness to ask for claims

[Golden Robster]

There is no fucking way scum has the balls to do this.

But there's so much fucking here to work with, and just about none of it is scum. Read in iso. Read the thread. JJD is not scum this game.

agree with krazy here

[Golden Robster]

VOTE: TBG

L-1

where did this read come from?

It came from JJD asking someone to vote or intent on TBG.
It came from me preferring the TBG lynch to the Scion lynch.
It came from my very scummy read of TBG's predecessor, ArcAngel.
It came from OMGUS.

okay these feel fake

going to double-check your iso

[Golden Robster]

VOTE: TBG

L-1

where did this read come from?

It came from JJD asking someone to vote or intent on TBG.
It came from me preferring the TBG lynch to the Scion lynch.
It came from my very scummy read of TBG's predecessor, ArcAngel.
It came from OMGUS.

okay these feel fake

going to double-check your iso

just checked and you have zero mention of TBG predecessor; how am I supposed to believe you on that?

the rest of the reasons don't differentiate you from town vs scum

also how is omgus a reason?

[Krazy]

VOTE: ArcAngel9

?

It had been long enough that TBG had replaced in that I forgot texcat had day1 FOSd the predecessor (and also don't really like texcat not re-evaluating his day 1 reads despite a flip on wheme) but he does mention Arcangel several times GR.

Also, GR, do you know how disappointed I am that you actually might not be scum this game?

[Golden Robster]

zero mention of TBG predecessor scumread*

[Golden Robster]

also arcangel barely did anything let alone participate in this game

why are you scumreading a slot that barely had any activity and why is it a major reason for you lynching TBG right now?

[Golden Robster]

Also, GR, do you know how disappointed I am that you actually might not be scum this game?

am guessing very disappointed

[Krazy]

This game is way more boring if you are town.

Also can you tell me how in the fuck you believe TBG bussed wheme? Having replaced in? With a perfectly viable Penguin push?

I know JJD is all gungho that "all the momentum was already there" and "it was like, a sure thing, brah" but uhm, no, no it wasn't. Like you are lynching the person who looked at a scum wagon and a town wagon with very little info and a perfectly good pass for the day and chose scum. I do not get it. At all. Even kinda.

[Golden Robster]

when TBG replaced in, these were the votes; there wasn't a wheme/PP wagon at this point

WhemeStar (0) -
PenguinPower (2) - EspeciallyTheLies (1996), Myloninja13 (2437)

oh fuck it's closer than I thought

VOTE: wheme

still open to counterwagons but this is a more useful vote than wave atm

this feels absolutely fake to me; nobody ever ever says this kind of line

oh fuck it's closer than I thought

and if we think along the terms that TBG is scum then he's 100% bussing here WHILE at the same time keeping his options open
and then wheme engages him in the next post which looks like awkward engagement/interaction from scum trying to look town while at the same time his partner is bussing

on, but of the three leading wagons

????

what?

also krazy you said earlier that I was being stupid for believing scum don't bus after losing one of their players

if scum aren't afraid of losing players in this game what makes you so certain that he wouldn't bus for towncred when PP and wheme wagon was at a standstill?

[Golden Robster]

Also can you tell me how in the fuck you believe TBG bussed wheme? Having replaced in? With a perfectly viable Penguin push?

the biggest difference here is that TBG didn't fully bus wheme

still open to counterwagons but this is a more useful vote than wave atm

busy irl so can't reply fully, but UNVOTE: wheme[\unvote].

still want lynch, just bad policy to run to l-1 preclaim

I'm in full agreement that we should lynch regardless of the claim,

but if he's got a night action, it's important to hear what he did with it

, especially if it's investigative.

Pushing for a lynch pre-claim gives us absolutely nothing.

this was pre-claim as if he knew wheme was going to claim PR and a PR with night action at that

and then operation save wheme begins

UNVOTE: wheme

This vote's coming back tonight but I'll give you a few hours time.

Why is everyone so bloodthirsty?

Wheme dies in a few hours.

I've seen enough annoying stubborn town PRs that I'd rather wait a few hours for information than not. I'm 90% this is scum stalling for lulz, but that still leaves a chance it's not.

Learn some patience.

trying to stall

and when he sees that wheme is donezo and not getting out of being lynched the bus starts again

VOTE: wheme

So, you got your Doctor PM. You saw the Innocent Child announcement. You saw some mason claims and you didn't scratch your head at the idea that town is over-powered?

one strongman and suddenly it's not though

Yeah, protective + confirmable townies is bonkers in a vacuum, but it's really not hard to balance around (it's just swingy)

Not that I buy whemes claim, though, but let's not assume a real doctor or other strong roles is op.

Not that I buy whemes claim, though

Not that I buy whemes claim, though

[Golden Robster]

the biggest difference here is that TBG didn't fully bus wheme

clarification he didn't fully commit to wheme until wheme was absolutely going to be lynched

he flip-flopped a lot and even though flip-flopping can come from town most of his posts feel fake

[Golden Robster]

like he was on the wagon but he kept on mentioning he was open to other wagons as well

[Krazy]

Yeah but why does he do that if he's bussing?

Like, if he's open to other wagons, and he's scum, he just... joins another wagon. He doesn't, as scum, announce he's open to other wagons but not get off the bus.

I mean, he's only stalling because Wheme is stalling. He doesn't want to leave someone who won't claim hanging at L-1. Like you are saying he is scummy because Wheme was doing scummy things and TBG didn't want to rush it.

Don't hammer yet

Dunn can ask people not to hammer, but look at this town. There's people like me and wave in it. If you don't want a hammer, you have to unvote.

Omg he still hasn't claimed. Just hammer.

To be clear, THIS looks scummier to me. When I have seen busses, I have more often seen scum try to play up the hammer. But JJD is still town.

Why is everyone so bloodthirsty? Wheme dies in a few hours.

I've seen enough annoying stubborn town PRs that I'd rather wait a few hours for information than not. I'm 90% this is scum stalling for lulz, but that still leaves a chance it's not.

Learn some patience.

This is a town player responding to JJD being WAY OVERCONFIDENT. You can't look at this stuff in a vaccuum. JJD is being punished today for the exact same powergaming tactics that TBG was responding to on day 2. TBG is coming off as overly cautious BECAUSE JJD is coming off as overly confident. BUT BOTH ARE TOWN.

[Krazy]

Imagine you are scum!TBG. WHY WAFFLE? Wheme is fucked. He is gone. Stalling will not save him.

Imagine you are town!TBG and you DO NOT KNOW Wheme's real flip. Imagine you are a town looking at a POTENTIAL TPR being lynched with NO CLAIM and NO RESULTS when he is not available to post during twilight.

It was absolutely right for Dunn and TBG to BOTH be saying to wait for Wheme to either claim while there was still plenty of time in the day cycle. Dunn was town and TBG is town.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I'm in full agreement that we should lynch regardless of the claim,

but if he's got a night action, it's important to hear what he did with it

, especially if it's investigative.

Pushing for a lynch pre-claim gives us absolutely nothing.

this was pre-claim as if he knew wheme was going to claim PR and a PR with night action at that

assume, for a second, you are wheme!scum, and walk into town!tbg having made that post. what do you do?

the correct answer is "you immediately claim TPR" because it makes me look sketchy af

look at my interactions with wheme under the lens that scum!wheme is setting up me!town, and tell me it doesn't make perfect sense? or tell me that he doesn't do

everything

in his power to make me look bad when he flips scum? it's so patently a frame attempt of him setting up my mislynch after he goes down.

[TehBrawlGuy]

It was absolutely right for Dunn and TBG to BOTH be saying to wait for Wheme to either claim while there was still plenty of time in the day cycle. Dunn was town and TBG is town.

this is an underrated point. literally, the progression of the thread has been:


"Dunn stalled the Wheme wagon on policy grounds, but Wheme was Scum! Dunn must've stalled because he's scum too!"
*Dunn is lynched*
*Dunn flips town*

"TBG stalled the Wheme wagon on policy grounds, but Wheme was Scum! TBG must've stalled because he's scum too!"
(and in like 12 hours)
*TBG is lynched*
*TBG flips town*


I keep seeing arguments of the form "TBG did _______ because he's Scum", that also apply or were used against (flipped Town) Dunn. There is clearly a protown reason for my actions - we know because those were also the actions of a dead town player. Yet for some reason, despite Dunn lynch being a failure, the thread is totally content to use the same arguments against me in the hopes of a different outcome. Why has nobody reevaluated their read on me after Dunn's flip?

[Krazy]

Day 2 VC #28

Golden Robster (0) -
Creature (0) -
Kublai Khan (1) - Andriod18 (2533)

WhemeStar (7) - Flavor Leaf (2958), PenguinPower (2962), Wavemode (2966), Hopkirk (3008), Kublai Khan (3027), JarJarDrinks (3030), Scioness Sajj (3034)

Hopkirk (0) -
EspeciallyTheLies (0) -
JarJarDrinks (1) - Dunnstral (2206)
Andriod18 (1) - Pine (1936)
Texcat (0) -
TehBrawlGuy (1) - Ausuka (3023)
Vaxkiller (0) -
Wavemode (1) - TehBrawlGuy (2690)

PenguinPower (8) - EspeciallyTheLies (1996), Myloninja13 (2437), Lalendra (2809), Creature (2835), WhemeStar (2930), Golden Robster (2979), Gamma Emerald (2990), Vaxkiller (3012)

Myloninja13 (1) - Texcat (2552)
Scioness Sajj (0) -
Flavor Leaf (0) -
Not Voting (1) - Frozen Angel

Lynch Threshold

During day 2, it takes 12 votes to lynch a player.

Deadline

Day 2 ends on July 14, 2018 8:00 PM EDT (GMT-4:00) or in (expired on 2018-07-14 20:00:00).

Moderator Notes

WhemeStar is V/LA on July 14.
Prodded Andriod18. They have (expired on 2018-07-13 16:24:38) to respond in-thread.
Seeking a replacement for EspeciallyTheLies.

Unless I find a replacement before the end of the day, there are no plans to extend the day's deadline.

If you have consistent weekend V/LA, you must remind me every weekend, or I will prod you. Alternatively, you can set V/LA tags each weekend.
If you notice any mistakes, please point them out. (That includes looking at the voting history.)

Spoiler: Current Voting History

Day 2

Dunnstral: Myloninja13 (1942) --> JarJarDrinks (2206)
Golden Robster: Hopkirk (2078) --> (Null) (2096) --> PenguinPower (2112) --> Scioness Sajj (2152) --> Vaxkiller (2171) --> (Null) (2288) --> Creature (2299) --> WhemeStar (2304) --> Wavemode (2367) --> Scioness Sajj (2432) --> TehBrawlGuy (2526) --> Flavor Leaf (2642) --> (Null) (2783) --> PenguinPower (2979)
Pine: Andriod18 (1936)
Creature: Myloninja13 (1941) --> PenguinPower (2835)
Kublai Khan: Flavor Leaf (1944) --> (Null) (2366) --> Vaxkiller (2423) --> PenguinPower (2899) --> WhemeStar (3027)
WhemeStar: Vaxkiller (2245) --> JarJarDrinks (2301) --> Flavor Leaf (2542) --> PenguinPower (2930)
Hopkirk: Andriod18 (2197) --> Kublai Khan (2346) --> (Null) (2781) ==> (Null) (2782) --> WhemeStar (3008)
Gamma Emerald: Kublai Khan (2488) --> Golden Robster (2839) --> (Null) (2867) --> PenguinPower (2990)

Ausuka

: PenguinPower (1960) --> Myloninja13 (2434) --> Flavor Leaf (2504) --> (Null) (2573) --> Myloninja13 (2574) --> TehBrawlGuy (3023)
Lalendra: Vaxkiller (2184) --> JarJarDrinks (2334) --> Andriod18 (2503) --> Flavor Leaf (2657) --> (Null) (2705) --> PenguinPower (2809)
EspeciallyTheLies: PenguinPower (1996)
JarJarDrinks: Andriod18 (1945) --> EspeciallyTheLies (2041) --> (Null) (2066) --> Andriod18 (2192) --> Flavor Leaf (2327) --> (Null) (2612) --> Flavor Leaf (2640) --> (Null) (2755) --> Andriod18 (2943) --> WhemeStar (3030)
Andriod18: JarJarDrinks (2116) --> Kublai Khan (2533)
Texcat: ArcAngel9 (1987) --> Myloninja13 (2552)
ArcAngel9 (1): Texcat (2072)
TehBrawlGuy: (Null) (2535) --> Wavemode (2690)
Vaxkiller: WhemeStar (2343) --> Myloninja13 (2472) --> PenguinPower (3012)
Wavemode: Texcat (2044) --> Andriod18 (2331) --> Flavor Leaf (2635) --> (Null) (2800) --> WhemeStar (2966)
PenguinPower: Myloninja13 (1947) --> Kublai Khan (2572) --> Flavor Leaf (2709) --> Myloninja13 (2759) --> Golden Robster (2775) --> (Null) (2894) --> WhemeStar (2962)
Myloninja13: PenguinPower (2437)
Scioness Sajj: Andriod18 (2904) --> WhemeStar (3034)
Flavor Leaf: JarJarDrinks (2205) --> Kublai Khan (2499) --> PenguinPower (2715) --> Golden Robster (2774) --> WhemeStar (2958)

Spoiler: Previous Voting History

Day 1

Note: * = Hammer Vote

Note: ^ = Vote after hammer vote.

Dunnstral (5):

Osuka

(77) --> Texcat (1388) --> Lalendra (1623) -->

Osuka

(1758) -->

Performer

(1782)

Srceenplay

(0): (Null)

Performer

(5):

Osuka

(623) --> TheRampage (909) --> Wavemode (1051) --> Andriod18 (1765) -->

Performer

(1849)*

Joral

(0): (Null)

Almost50

(8): Hopkirk (97) --> Edosurist (226) -->

Osuka

(390) -->

Ausuka

(1205) --> (Null) (1304) --> Vaxkiller (1352) --> (Null) (1380) --> Andriod18 (1460)
Fumuki (0): (Null)
Golden Robster (13):

Almost50

(177) --> Wavemode (183) -->

Osuka

(236) -->

Ausuka (317)

--> JarJarDrinks (319) --> (Null) (546) --> Vaxkiller (602) --> (Null) (1504) --> Wavemode (1588) --> (Null) (1589) --> ArcAngel9 (1770) --> Andriod18 (1784) --> [[ost=1798](Null) (1798)[/post]
Pine (2):

Osuka

(176) --> Andriod18 (1835)
Creature (6):

Performer

(385) --> Myloninja13 (720) --> TheRampage (813) -->

Performer

(898) --> Andriod18 (1449) -->

Performer

(1846)
Kublai Khan (6):

Osuka

(76) -->

Almost50

(122) --> Scioness Sajj (388) --> JarJarDrinks (536) -->

Osuka

(725) -->

Performer

(957)
WhemeStar (3): Lalendra (234) --> JarJarDrinks (797) --> Flavor Leaf (955)
Hopkirk (9):

Osuka

(90) --> Lalendra (279) -->

Osuka

(696) --> (Null) (993) --> Wavemode (999) -->

Performer

(1273) --> (Null) (1315) -->

Performer

(1458) --> Andriod18 (1679)
Edosurist (2): Texcat (84) -->

Almost50

(222)
Gamma Emerald (3): Vaxkiller (710) --> Wavemode (1107) --> Andriod18 (1711) --> _{(Null) (1889)^}

Ausuka

(9): JarJarDrinks (89) --> Creature (104) --> Myloninja13 (429) --> (Null) (742) --> TheRampage (743) --> Wavemode (998) -->

Performer

(1604) --> Lalendra (1624) --> Andriod18 (1680)
Lalendra (3):

Almost50

(209) --> (Null) (559) -->

Performer

(1229)
EspeciallyTheLies (2):

Almost50

(83) -->

Performer

(515)
Lovebird (1): Edosurist (259)
Davesaz (1): Wavemode (1014)
Frozen Angel (3):

Performer

(1579) --> (Null) (1606) -->

Performer

(1814)
JarJarDrinks (8):

Osuka

(85) -->

Almost50

(114) --> Charles510 (186) --> Edosurist (231) -->

Osuka

(535) -->

Ausuka

(842) --> Wavemode (1112) --> Andriod18 (1410)

Osuka

(10): Wavemode (80) --> JarJarDrinks (124) --> ArcAngel9 (229) --> Pine (332) --> JarJarDrinks (353) -->

Performer

(769) --> TheRampage (771) -->

Performer

(1047) --> Vaxkiller (1359) -->

Performer

(1384)
Texcat (4):

Osuka

(79) --> Wavemode (1080) -->

Osuka

(1703) --> Andriod18 (1777)
Andriod18 (4): Kublai Khan (190) --> Lovebird (290) --> JarJarDrinks (855) -->

Performer

(1796)
ArcAngel9 (4): Texcat (81) --> TheRampage (223) --> Texcat (604) -->

Performer

(1397)
Charles510 (2): JarJarDrinks (87) --> (Null) (310)
Vaxkiller (8): JarJarDrinks (363) --> Scioness Sajj (389) --> Andriod18 (437) --> JarJarDrinks (532) --> Golden Robster (678) --> Wavemode (1078) --> TheRampage (1085) -->

Performer

(1116)
Wavemode (5): Texcat (82) --> Charles510 (131) --> (Null) (838) -->

Osuka

(867) -->

Performer

(1108)
TheRampage (3): Creature (100) --> (Null) (509) -->

Osuka

(681)
PenguinPower (1):

Performer

(1774)
Myloninja13 (4): Edosurist (233) --> JarJarDrinks (326) -->

Performer

(1554) --> Andriod18 (1787)
Scioness Sajj (4):

Ausuka

(406) --> (Null) (1325) -->

Performer

(1552) --> Andriod18 (1760)
Flavor Leaf (1): Andriod18 (1772)

Pre-Game

Dunnstral (2): Texcat (9) --> Pine (43)

Srceenplay

(1): Andriod18 (62)
Pine (1):

Osuka

(16)
Kublai Khan (1): Pine (34)
Hopkirk (1):

Osuka

(66)
Edosurist (1): Pine (42)

Osuka

(2): Pine (28) --> Wavemode (33)
Texcat (1): Pine (44)
Wavemode (1):

Osuka

(31)

WTF are you saying there was no PP wagon when he voted? This VC is like immediately before he votes. THIS IS WHY HE VOTES.

OK, GR, I can see where you're coming from. I even looked through my games to find one where bus behaved like you're accusing TBG of acting here.

I found this if you want to look: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=275

Bvoigt here is basically your version of TBG, and [winger] in this case would be whemestar. It even has a fake power role claim! Nice analogue in that respect.

But the bus in that game is going on in a gamestate that looks like this:

[3] Acronach - [bvoigt, tclawre, havingfitz]
[2] Krazy - [RisingPhoenix, [winger]]
[2] PeregrineV - [Haschel Cedricson, Fishythefish]
[2] [winger] - [Krazy, Triglav]
[1] havingfitz - [Acronach]
[1] populartajo - [PeregrineV]
[1] Haschel Cedricson - [populartajo]
[0] Not Voting

So yes, scum do bus early. Scum do say they don't care which of their two top leads gets lynched and then maybe switch between them. I can see those behaviors coming from scum.

But in THIS GAME, TBG is pushing Wheme to L-4. That is a VERY different gamestate to be assigning that sort of gambit, especially for a player slot that has JUST replaced in.

Although, LOL holy shit

UNVOTE: Acronach
VOTE: [winger]

I'm fine with either of them getting lynched, and I believe winger has more votes at the moment.

This is actually also moving off a (not-their-side wagon) and putting his team-mate to L-4. Holy shit the analogy is actually closer than I thought.

Alright you know what, fuck it. TBG is still probably town but I'm going to bed before I confuse myself even more.

[TehBrawlGuy]

the obvious difference between me and that guy is that bvoight had previously expressed suspicion of winger multiple times and been voting him - it would have been weird for him to 180
i had newly replaced in and could've made literally any stance on Wheme up b/c I'd never talked about him before

[TehBrawlGuy]

it's so weird to me that people simultaneously believe that:

I was aggressive enough to bus wheme when I could've made up any read on him I wanted, and my own slot was null.
but suddenly the next morning my balls just shriveled off and I decided to unvote and revote him twice at L-1 while publicly advocating for people to wait for his claim

[JarJarDrinks]

VOTE: TehBrawlGuy

i thought you wanted sajj?

I do prefer sajj.

then maybe keep your vote there until closer to deadline? we have a day left

Once Vax's vote came off him, a sajj lynch seemed pretty unlikely. One day isn't much time at all.

[texcat]

VOTE: TBG

L-1

where did this read come from?

It came from JJD asking someone to vote or intent on TBG.
It came from me preferring the TBG lynch to the Scion lynch.
It came from my very scummy read of TBG's predecessor, ArcAngel.
It came from OMGUS.

okay these feel fake

going to double-check your iso

just checked and you have zero mention of TBG predecessor; how am I supposed to believe you on that?

the rest of the reasons don't differentiate you from town vs scum

also how is omgus a reason?

You asked for my reasons and I gave them to you. They may not be the best reasons, they may not be a convincing case on TBG, but they are not fake. Oh, or were you expecting me to say that your case on TBG is what convinced me?

[JarJarDrinks]

O man I just got super paranoid about a Tchill/SS scumteam.

[texcat]

That was really a bad series of posts from Vax. He has been scummy the entire game, and yet his one post fake claiming vig is letting him survive.

On the other hand, JJD has been townie the entire game and had one post asking for claims, and scum jumped on it.