Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

[Varsoon]

Radical, Xyzz

@RC: If you can't see why you're at fault in the Reckoner exchange, I'm sorry. You really need to take a more objective look at that.
It's not your fault the game was lost--Nos and Shoshin spent a lot of the game driving away from scum lynches and trusting Porkens for no good reason.
You are responsible, however, for heavily influencing town in a direction that was not useful for their wincon. It doesn't matter if 100% of your reads are right, what matters is how you interact with others and the direction you give townies.

@Shoshin: You can't really act vindicated here in any way--'voted scum D2'?! You mean the OUTED SCUM WHO SHOT THE TOWNIE WITH A GUILTY? Voting for scum or not being on mislynches doesn't matter, Shoshin. What matters is lynching scum. You constantly undermined town voices, including mine. You didn't insist upon the NSG lynch as hard as you should've when it become obvious NSG was scum. You allowed the Gacha to go to Porkens multiple times. You were complicit in a No Lynch in a setup where scum WERE PROVEN TO HAVE DAYKILL ACCESS and could have gotten another one via Gacha. I'm not saying you're the sole reason that town lost, but you played a huge role in keeping town from winning and a large part of why I suspect you were kept alive is due to that role.

[Shoshin]

Varsoon, your understanding of the events in this game are very flawed.

[Varsoon]

Maybe my understanding is flawed, but I will never, ever forget the following:

I did in fact scumread NSG since D3, in case that wasn't clear (notice the jailkeep on her, as well as basically calling her scum on D3). So I dunno. How the hell wasn't she lynched? Beyond my understanding.

VOTE: nsg

I don't get why we're voting nsg instead of no lynching but if this is what we're doing, I want to be on this for the gold.

I've been supporting a no lynch from the start of this day phase.

It's like I said at the start of this day phase. The scum are NSG & Skitter. And the correct move for today, just to be safe, is no lynching.

No lynching in a closed setup is always, always, always against town's interests.

[Shoshin]

I'm not saying you're the sole reason that town lost, but you played a huge role in keeping town from winning and a large part of why I suspect you were kept alive is due to that role.

This is so hilariously wrong.

I didn't play any role in "keeping town from winning." That shows a profound misunderstanding of how this game played out.

First, on D1, I strongly argued against Irrelephant's mislynch (remember our discussion about Irrelephant?) and would have compromised onto Gammagooey (I expressly said that I was willing to compromise lynch onto Gammagooey if we couldn't lynch Varsoon).

Second, I consistently made sure that gacha wasn't given to scum by making myself as obviously town as possible and lobbying for myself as the receiver of the gacha. I received it every night except N5. On D4, the gacha was almost given to NSG (did you notice that?) and I had to argue forcefully to make sure it wasn't. I was successful in that endeavor. I was the only townie arguing against giving the gacha to NSG... The only time that I failed to get the gacha was on D5, when Nos stupidly used his role on Porkens. I gave Nos a massive amount of shit for using his role on Pork. I can't help how Nos decides to use his role, nor can I help how he decides to vote for the gacha, or how he reads Pork. I still said that I should get gacha, not Pork. But at that point, there wasn't anything I could do to convince Nos, and I townread Nos enough that I decided to just let him have his way with Pork, despite thinking he was throwing the game with how he used his role (and I said that expressly in the game).

Third, I strongly defended against the mislynching of Gamma, and even faked an innocent on him, to prevent his mislynch. I was successful in that endeavor, and if I had failed, town would have lost this game much quicker (i.e. on D4).

Fourth, I was against Reck's mislynch, called him town multiple times. Again, it's not my fault that Reck was mislynched. He was mislynched before I even had a chance to make a town case for him... it happened very quickly... If things had gone my way, Kokichi would have been lynched (and Koki's flip as town would have almost certainly confirmed Reck as town, as well as clearing Nos to a large extent - which means the next lynch probably would have been NSG). Yes, there's lots of "what ifs" in this game, but I'm just pointing out that my trajectory wasn't anywhere close to as wrong as any of the other townies in the game. But there's only so much that a single player can do... and saying that I played a "huge role in keeping town from winning" is just wrong.

What more could I have done? Saying that I could have pushed my agenda better is like saying I'm responsible for all the errors that every townie made in the game. The reality is that it's not my fault that a bunch of townies suspected Gamma Emerald for no reason. It's not my fault that Nos became convinced without any doubt that Pork was town, or that he used his role on Pork, or that he randomly decided to mislynch me despite the fact that I was obviously town.

[Shoshin]

Maybe my understanding is flawed, but I will never, ever forget the following:

I did in fact scumread NSG since D3, in case that wasn't clear (notice the jailkeep on her, as well as basically calling her scum on D3). So I dunno. How the hell wasn't she lynched? Beyond my understanding.

VOTE: nsg

I don't get why we're voting nsg instead of no lynching but if this is what we're doing, I want to be on this for the gold.

I've been supporting a no lynch from the start of this day phase.

It's like I said at the start of this day phase. The scum are NSG & Skitter. And the correct move for today, just to be safe, is no lynching.

No lynching in a closed setup is always, always, always against town's interests.

I strongly disagree.

[Shoshin]

No lynching helped narrow the potential scum, as well as giving us a chance to use gacha items and our roles. It also prevented Pork from getting the extra gold he would have got from lynching NSG.

[Shoshin]

Is this my best game? Obviously not. I didn't give it my all, for sure. But does that mean I played a "huge role in keeping town from winning"? No f'ing way. I did a lot ot keep this town from losing much more quickly.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's pretty clear that objectively people shouldnt play games with other people if they're going to spend it all to policy lynch others.

Just because you like Reckoner and you don't like me doesn't mean I instigated shit. And talking about my play when you tried so fucking hard to derail the kokichi/shoshin/RC town block on D1 that would have rolled the game is lol.

[Shoshin]

No lynching in a closed setup is always, always, always against town's interests.

This sort of rigid thinking is just wrong. Sometimes it's the right move, sometimes it isn't.

In this case, I'd argue that it put us closer to winning, by preventing Pork from getting a bunch of extra gold, allowing us to use our roles/gold, and narrowing the potential scum by removing skitter from the game. In an ideal world, town would have got the gacha again instead of Pork, making the no lynch even more effective. And with skitter's death, we got a 1-shot cop (as long as she used her role on town).

What nobody could have predicted is that Nos would randomly decide to lynch me instead of NSG... think about that for a moment... every piece of evidence in this game pointed to NSG as scum... and Nos decides to vote me? And that's somehow my fault? Lol...

[Shoshin]

It's pretty clear that objectively people shouldnt play games with other people if they're going to spend it all to policy lynch others.

Just because you like Reckoner and you don't like me doesn't mean I instigated shit. And talking about my play when you tried so fucking hard to derail the kokichi/shoshin/RC town block on D1 that would have rolled the game is lol.

Policy lynching in general is dumb. I know you're an emotional guy and all but it would have been nice if you could stay in the game. We probably would have cleaned this game up.

I lost interest after you replaced out and everyone mislynched obvious town Irrelephant. So that obviously played a part in our loss too.

[Varsoon]

Shoshin, you can scramble to justify your play in this loss as much as you like but
In a setup where it was proven that scum have access to extra kills
Where the gacha literally could have given an extra kill to scum
You allowed the Gacha to go to scum
and no lynched going into LYLO.

You can point the finger any way you want and say that all the evidence pointed to NSG, but you still rallied for a no lynch over an NSG lynch when it mattered most.

[Shoshin]

I argued for a no lynch followed by the lynch of NSG. That is not a misplay, and it isn't what lost us this game. It had no relevant impact on the game at all, in fact.

[Varsoon]

Yes, you argued for a no lynch
INSTEAD OF A LYNCH ON CONFIRMED SCUM
IN A SETUP
WHERE SCUM COULD HAVE HAD TWO KILLS IN LYLO

[Varsoon]

It is LITERALLY what cost you the game

[Lycanfire]

Soz for flaking out on the review

I suppose I could have spent time trying to learn the theme

What did people like/dislike about the role madness nature of the game? I hit a brick wall in all the uncontrollable factors and I think my biggest advice to xyzzy was to combat it by giving the mafia more control

[Shoshin]

That isn't what lost us the game. And to be clear, I didn't argue against lynching scum. I happily joined the wagon on NSG.

What I argued for was a delayed lynch on NSG, not a no lynch instead of a lynch on scum. And if NSG was confirmed scum, why aren't you even talking about Nos, who mislynched me instead of lynching NSG? Like, wtf? Nobody could have predicted what he did, and if we had lynched NSG instead, you wouldn't even be talking about this as somehow a game losing move...

[Varsoon]

In most games you don't get such an obvious arc of where town lost the game but it's so damn clear right here:
Literally the ONLY players to resist an NSG lynch here are PORKENS, NSG, and SHOSHIN.
And then BASED ON SHOSHIN'S SUGGESTION
TOWN NO LYNCHES
DESPITE HAVING SCUM AT L-1

N

ormally, I'd be throwing down on Gammagoo for that hammer, but I'm actually pretty sure of scum that isn't him.

S

o right now, I'm gonna sit on that, though, 'cus I am interested in what everyone else has to think.

G

ooey, do you have anything you want to share?

uh maybe i'm overlooking things but look at the bolded, first letter of each sentence

I don't see a good case for nsg lynch

I still think the correct move is to no lynch today so that we can use gacha and items.

I kinda want to lynch scum

VOTE: nsg
I don't get why we're voting nsg instead of no lynching but if this is what we're doing, I want to be on this for the gold.

VOTE: no lynch

[Shoshin]

What lost us the game was Nos voting me instead of confirmed scum...

No lynching on D5 didn't lose us anything...

[Varsoon]

Nos played horribly but he's not sitting around in post trying to say his play is somehow vindicated.

[Varsoon]

You no lynched when scum could've ended the game with 2 kills in LYLO
I don't want to hear your attempts at justifying that play.

[Varsoon]

I want you to accept that you laid down poor play and try to grow from this.

[Shoshin]

Scum didn't have two kills... what the fuck are you talking about?

[Varsoon]

Gacha could've gotten them an extra kill and Porkens got the Gacha.
Furthermore, you had no clue if scum had an extra kill, but this is a closed setup and it was PROVEN scum had an extra kill already.
Why would you assume a no lynch was fine?

[Shoshin]

I didn't say my play was perfect...

I have learned a few things from this game...

But to say that I played a "huge role in keeping town from winning" is just wrong.

There's a difference between saying, "I could have done X better" and saying "I'm the reason town lost."

[Varsoon]

You see the quotes I made above?
How town had scum at L-1 and because of your frequent suggestions of a no-lynch INSTEAD OF LYNCHING CONFIRMED SCUM, town doubted and went with the no lynch?

Yes, you didn't SINGLE HANDEDLY LOSE THE GAME FOR TOWN, but you sure did PLAY A HUGE ROLE IN IT