Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[Irrelephant11]

eh
those are fine responses
though I definitely don't think you can handwave my reads as "safe consensus reads" when I was the first to give a read for 3/5 of them? Like?? And landing on hard townreads means it's something you can hold me accountable to. Scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me. Kinda reads like you TMIing their alignments ("townreading town is too easy", is kind of how it's coming across), because the other option is you somehow magically know what everyone else's reads will be when they return to the thread and can tell that my reads match that future consensus. Wish I had that kind of foresight.

Also I didn't ask if my first post is "how you'd play it", I asked if it's reasonable. Is it reasonable?

[Irrelephant11]

so I guess on second thought those aren't fine responses, lol

[Sashaddin]

nah i'm just saying my last game felt a lot more laid back and everyone seemed to enjoy it more

Yeah, I had a lot of fun. This one can be too!

[Sashaddin]

Welcome Irrelephant, I must admit your entrance was unconventional.
In 138, there are two that I would like a little more juice about: bji and Raya.
Right now I'm voting bji but I wanna see if there is something I had missed about Raya.

[Irrelephant11]

I actually have a secret read on those two

Spoiler: secret

they're the scumteam

[Sashaddin]

Scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me.

Why would you scumread someone who townreads your most towny slots?

[Sashaddin]

I actually have a secret read on those two

Ooooh!

[Irrelephant11]

My point there was that it's too early to scumread me for "consensus reads", since I was the first to state most of them
If you want to scumread someone for "consensus reads", scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me

[Sashaddin]

Sounds fair|

[bji]

eh
those are fine responses
though I definitely don't think you can handwave my reads as "safe consensus reads" when I was the first to give a read for 3/5 of them? Like?? And landing on hard townreads means it's something you can hold me accountable to. Scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me. Kinda reads like you TMIing their alignments ("townreading town is too easy", is kind of how it's coming across), because the other option is you somehow magically know what everyone else's reads will be when they return to the thread and can tell that my reads match that future consensus. Wish I had that kind of foresight.

A simple reads list with no other text that puts a town read on someone is about as safe as you can get. You can walk back from that so easily it's not even funny, any time you want to. That's a pretty safe list to throw out there. My point is still valid. My statements were rational given what you had posted up to that point.

Also I didn't ask if my first post is "how you'd play it", I asked if it's reasonable. Is it reasonable?

What a weird thing to push on. Your first post was fluff, and could have no purpose as town, and little purpose as scum other than to try to establish a play style for the game that would let you slide through. If you are scum, I took that away from you though by challenging you on it. So if you are scum, point to me no?

If you are town, it is not a reasonable post for helping the town agenda in any way. But like I said, it could just be a non-play. Not what I would do, I don't really post non-play posts if I can help it, but like I said, if that's your play style, then OK.

[bji]

My point there was that it's too early to scumread me for "consensus reads", since I was the first to state most of them
If you want to scumread someone for "consensus reads", scumread the next person to townread skitter or garmr, not me

If you'll notice, I said you were either scum or worthless town. That is a null read. Your narrative is based on the complete fabrication of me scumreading you.

I feel quite comfortable with where my vote is right now.

[Irrelephant11]

I agree it's a weird thing to push on, and accept you labeling it as such. It just feels like you want to include my first post as a reason to scumread me, which I think is plainly ridiculous. I just gave you the town purpose (sidenote: it would also be the scum purpose) for my post - that I wanted to explain why I wasn't itt for the first 2 days of the game. If my explanation for the post is reasonable, why assume any other description for the reasoning behind my post is more true than what I've said?

If you are changing your point from "your reads are consensus reads" to "your reads are safe reads", then yes, your new point is valid-ish (though it's contradicted by you being surprised by my raya vote). Your statement that my reads were "consensus" is not valid, though, and I'm frustrated by your insistence that it is. I'm getting too annoyed by you at this point to determine if my scumread on you makes sense anymore, so I'm gonna wait for outside commentary before discussing this with you further.

pedit: ?? "scum or worthless town" is how you describe a nullread?
You voted me after saying "either scum or worthless", and I'm supposed to assume you're nullreading me?

Glad you're comfy, ttyl

[bji]

I agree it's a weird thing to push on, and accept you labeling it as such. It just feels like you want to include my first post as a reason to scumread me, which I think is plainly ridiculous. I just gave you the town purpose (sidenote: it would also be the scum purpose) for my post - that I wanted to explain why I wasn't itt for the first 2 days of the game. If my explanation for the post is reasonable, why assume any other description for the reasoning behind my post is more true than what I've said?

That was a calculated attempt to take away your ability to slide through on little effort as scum if that's what you were trying to do. I'd say it succeeded given that if you are scum you've now had to explain yourself numerous times and also been forced to take an offensive against me to deflect any suspicion away from yourself. Of course, if you're town then you're not trying to deflect anything and are genuinely annoyed at having to defend yourself in this way. Who knows. Only time will tell. My job here is not to give townies warm fuzzy feelings (especially no-effort ones or lurkers who I will be brutal on because I hate that kind of player) but to make scum uncomfortable and force them to explain themselves, to put down text that they may regret later as it may paint them into a corner. I will do that early and often.

If you are changing your point from "your reads are consensus reads" to "your reads are safe reads", then yes, your new point is valid-ish (though it's contradicted by you being surprised by my raya vote). Your statement that my reads were "consensus" is not valid, though, and I'm frustrated by your insistence that it is. I'm getting too annoyed by you at this point to determine if my scumread on you makes sense anymore, so I'm gonna wait for outside commentary before discussing this with you further.

This is a pointless debate. I have been consistent in describing how I arrived at my descriptions of your initial reads list. It was all predicated on a low-activity Irrelepant11 which is not true any longer, and on some confusion I had about what you meant in your 'lol handn't seen this yet' post. Whether you want to categorize my initial opinion of your reads list as "safe" or "consensus based" or whatever, it's all partially true because my evaluation was not wholly based on either of those concepts, but partially on both. And of course it was somewhat over-stated because my goal was mostly to prod you into greater action, which I have done, and to analyze your responses, which I have also done.

Re: being annoyed with me, I guess I just don't get some of the players in this game. Are we playing Mafia here or did I join the wrong forum?

pedit: ?? "scum or worthless town" is how you describe a nullread?
You voted me after saying "either scum or worthless", and I'm supposed to assume you're nullreading me?

Well I don't play Mafia very often (once or twice a year at most), so my vernacular may not be as nuanced as some. I meant 'null read' in the sense that it was not committal either way, I said either scum or worthless town, so there is no reason to assume that I meant one was more likely than the other. I only said that if either is the case, then we should lynch it.

I am now completely losing in my fight against walling

[Lady Angel]

Votecount 1.2:

Bji: 2 (Clemency, Sashaddin)
Clemency: 2 (ReaperOfSouls, Flubbernugget)
Skitter30: 1 (Raya36)
Irrelephant11: 2 (Skitter30, bji)
Raya36: 2 (Garmr, Irrelephant11)

Not voting:

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end on December 1st, 2018 at 3:30 PM PST or 18 days, 23 hours, and 13 minutes from this post.

The following players have not posted since the last votecount and will be prodded if they have not posted before the next one, unless they are V/LA: Skitter30 (V/LA)

[Garmr]

Yeah I'm not liking bji either now. One reach was excusable, but this second one seems even more forced. Especially how he ended it with "irrelphant being a null read but worthless if town so should lynch anyway."

[bji]

Yeah I'm not liking bji either now. One reach was excusable, but this second one seems even more forced. Especially how he ended it with "irrelphant being a null read but worthless if town so should lynch anyway."

Ended with? That's what I started with. You should pay closer attention.

What are the two reaches? Do you mean the two instances where I actually tried to progress the game instead of sitting back and playing safe?

[ReaperOfSouls]

UNVOTE: Clemency

Removing RVS vote.

[Garmr]

Yeah I'm not liking bji either now. One reach was excusable, but this second one seems even more forced. Especially how he ended it with "irrelphant being a null read but worthless if town so should lynch anyway."

Ended with? That's what I started with. You should pay closer attention.

What are the two reaches? Do you mean the two instances where I actually tried to progress the game instead of sitting back and playing safe?

First reach was with clemency post 56 by saying they were a chatty opener. I think it's a bit of reach but nothing to bad.

But the Irrelephant11 case omg. The fact you accused them of not reading anything seems premature as it was their first couple of posts and players skipping to the most recent page isn't really alignment indicative especially if they go back to read it latter on. Post 138 15 minutes after that post that's quick enough to get a basic feel of a game which is only 6 pages long.I don't safe reads is a good scum point especially when two no one has expressed their opinion of.

Also I don't like the fact you switched from one of your scum read to a so called null read under the justification they wouldn't help town. This shows you are just looking for a wagon

Do you mean the two instances where I actually tried to progress the game instead of sitting back and playing safe?

This comment shows you are conscious of how people view you and your trying to be portrayed as someone who progress's the game. It comes off as artificial.

[Garmr]

You know what
VOTE: BJI

[bji]

You know what
VOTE: BJI

I got lots of reactions from Clemency and Irrelephant so I feel like I'm getting quite a bit done here.

I leave it up to my fellow townies to decide if they think that this game will be won by applying pressure and forcing reactions or by sitting back and making unconvincing passive judgements.

[Garmr]

You know what
VOTE: BJI

I got lots of reactions from Clemency and Irrelephant so I feel like I'm getting quite a bit done here.

I leave it up to my fellow townies to decide if they think that this game will be won by applying pressure and forcing reactions or by sitting back and making unconvincing passive judgements.

I spent quite a bit of time thinking about this.

While it is ideal for town to kick things off and place pressure on the game. Scum would also benefit for being aggressive all the time so they can dictate the pace of the game. Also it works well with naive townies if you appear to be taking the lead.

That being said
-You are conscious of your appearance and you are constantly trying to push that your aggressiveness makes you town.
-You jumped from a scum read to a null read while shading the fuck out the null read slot.
-You ignored the point above when I mentioned it and pushed even harder that you are winning the game for town painting a picture.
-Your points are reacy.

These things make me lean scum on you as it seems you have more a image complex, than actually wanting to find scum.

[bji]

That being said
-You are conscious of your appearance and you are constantly trying to push that your aggressiveness makes you town.

Mischaracterization. My statements were an accurate description of the tact I have taken in response to your insinuation that there was something disingenuous about the "reaching" positions I had taken previously.

-You jumped from a scum read to a null read while shading the fuck out the null read slot.

This is just patently false. I never stated a read, was quite clear to say that the player was either scum or incompetent town. I have never stated a clear read on irrelephant one way or another, and certainly not flip flopped on it. And one man's 'shading' is another man's 'scumhunting' so ...

-You ignored the point above when I mentioned it and pushed even harder that you are winning the game for town painting a picture.

Which point was that again?

-Your points are reacy.

At this point in the game, *every* argument is going to look reachy because there is so little evidence for anything to be based on. Everyone playing this game should be aware of this. You should be aware of this.

All

of your points, including this one, are reachy for the same reason.

[Irrelephant11]

If your points are reachy, then his point [that you are reachy] is not reachy, correct? Don't love how anyone who interacts with you is clearly supposed to come out looking scummier than you.
Also it should be obvious that "either scum or incompetent town, let's lynch" comes across as a scum read, because I'm not going to assume you think I'm incompetent/worthless town???

I don't know how to read you, but you sure are riling up townies (we can't all be scum), which I'm not loving personally. Which is to say, I'm back to thinking you might be town, but I don't personally like interacting with you at all so far. Seems like you only want to approach this game from a "I don't make mistakes, and scum will out themselves by interacting with me" which is honestly *not* an ideal playstyles imo but probably doesn't deserve a scumread on its own

[bji]

If your points are reachy, then his point [that you are reachy] is not reachy, correct?

It is the use of the claim that my cases were 'reachy' as evidence for a scum lean that is reachy, not his statement that my points were reachy.

Don't love how anyone who interacts with you is clearly supposed to come out looking scummier than you.

Well get used to it, I guess, because I'm not going to stop challenging people just because you don't like my style.

Also it should be obvious that "either scum or incompetent town, let's lynch" comes across as a scum read, because I'm not going to assume you think I'm incompetent/worthless town???

Do you honestly think I was making a serious claim there? You really think I expected everyone to believe that within three posts you had already been nailed as scum and should be lynched?

As I said before, it was because I thought you might be scum trying to slide by with a certain play style, I wanted to interfere with that play style. If you are scum then I think it's good to have challenged you. If you are town it as at the very least neutral; maybe it gets you to be more talkative, or maybe you would have ended up being that way anyway.

I don't know how to read you, but you sure are riling up townies (we can't all be scum), which I'm not loving personally. Which is to say, I'm back to thinking you might be town, but I don't personally like interacting with you at all so far. Seems like you only want to approach this game from a "I don't make mistakes, and scum will out themselves by interacting with me" which is honestly *not* an ideal playstyles imo but probably doesn't deserve a scumread on its own

The two who seem riled up are you and Garmr. You could both be the scum, that's within the realm of possibility.

I've done pretty well with my play style in the past. You are projecting when you claim that I would think "I don't make mistakes", I never said that and do not believe it. But I do believe that scum will 'out' themselves in a sense due to interactions with town, it won't be obvious and it's very unlikely to happen on Day 1, but it will happen eventually. I mean that's the only way we win I think. How else are we going to spot the scum? Random guesswork and passing judgements on people's play styles?

[Irrelephant11]

Clemency was also riled up / almost replaced out.

But I'm getting closer to actually townreading you, I think I like a lot of this last post. I'm starting to believe that you believe the things you're saying, and that your pressure on me is just pressure, lacking scum agenda
How do you feel about Garmr piggy-backing on my frustration with you? If I'm town, how do you read him?