Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[Sashaddin]

The above reads were over a day old, I was too high on the Excel sheet... Add Skitter to the town bunch.

[skitter30]

sash do you usually use excel to keep track of reads and such?

[skitter30]

TedoxesHalo replaces Flubbernugget.

hello!

[Lady Angel]

Votecount 1.5:

Bji: 2 (Clemency, Sashaddin)
Raya36: 1 (bji)
ReaperOfSouls: 1 (Irrelephant11, Skitter30)

Not voting: ReaperOfSouls, Garmr, TexdoesHalo

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end on December 1st, 2018 at 3:30 PM PST or 15 days, 23 hours, and 5 minutes from this post.

The following players have not posted since the last votecount and will be prodded if they have not posted before the next one, unless they are V/LA: Bji, Clemency

[bji]

I'm confused. Is Tedoxeshalo the same person as Texdoeshalo from page 1? Has the mod mispelled the player name both in the announcement and in the player list on page 1?

Ted/Tex ... a question for you ... how many games of Mafia have you played?

[bji]

This game is definitely the slowest I've played so far.

Does that suggest anything to you?

[Sashaddin]

sash do you usually use excel to keep track of reads and such?

If

usually

is the last four games (out of 6), yes. I didn't do it for the two first, I was too newbie and unorganized. Plus, I'm a math teacher and I love Excel

[Sashaddin]

This game is definitely the slowest I've played so far.

Does that suggest anything to you?

1- Too many lurkers/unactive slots.
2- Lack of interest driving us into a downward spiral.
3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.
4- I personally have less time than the previous months for this, so I guess some people might suffer from this too. We've had 1 player replaced and almost a second so far, and this is Day 1!

[skitter30]

i think sash is more likely than not town

[Lady Angel]

I'm confused. Is Tedoxeshalo the same person as Texdoeshalo from page 1? Has the mod mispelled the player name both in the announcement and in the player list on page 1?

That was a spelling error and has been fixed.

[Sashaddin]

Does that suggest anything to you?

If you were implying that I wasn't

personally

making much and shouldn't cry about it, well mea culpa. When it was summertime I was on vacation so I could take a lot of time for this, but since school has begun again, I can only spend so much time on thinking about this. I come here 2 or 3 times a day though. I like the game and want to continue playing despite having less time for it. Now I'm not the guy who posts big walls I prefer to discuss a few posts at a time. Like this.

[Sashaddin]

3. I genuinely believe that scum is more likely to lurk and replace out than town.

I am totally agreeing with this. Accordingly, I also expect you will roast our new rookie
I'm eager to see what will come out of this.

[Raya36]

@sash
Do you have any reads?

Not much, since it's slow. Here's what I got:
Town or town lean: Clemency Garmr Raya
Scum lean: bji
Irrelephant is in both of the above
Can't tell anything from the other slots. I'm never good on Day 1 anyways, I need to see who gets killed to get to solve the game. Last game, I had to go back to Day 2 to find what I wanted, and it was day 4. Made the right decision though!

Fair enough then. Want to talk a little about your bji scum lean? Also your mixed feelings on irrelephant?

[bji]

Does that suggest anything to you?

If you were implying that I wasn't

personally

making much and shouldn't cry about it, well mea culpa. When it was summertime I was on vacation so I could take a lot of time for this, but since school has begun again, I can only spend so much time on thinking about this. I come here 2 or 3 times a day though. I like the game and want to continue playing despite having less time for it. Now I'm not the guy who posts big walls I prefer to discuss a few posts at a time. Like this.

I was just asking because I think that it

can

suggest something meaningful about the players involved and I wanted to know if you were seeing anything. My question wasn't pertaining to you specifically -- I see your approach to the game as being pretty consistent throughout - unlike some players here.

I think that what Texdoeshalo does now might be quite elucidating.

[Sashaddin]

Fair enough then. Want to talk a little about your bji scum lean? Also your mixed feelings on irrelephant?

"
Before post 56, I was thinking bji to be town-ish, casual and pleasant. At 56 he's building a case on thin air. At the bottom of that post, he says: "I hereby state that Clemency is scum playing a chatty opener." Well it's bji I feel, sense, imagine as a wolf in sheep's clothing, chatting us away.
138 and 139 were equally bad for both protagonists. The discussion between them continues for a some posts and looks like an early SvS to me, engaging a lot but without real force:

That was a

calculated

attempt to take away your ability to slide through on little effort as scum if that's what you were trying to do. I'd say it succeeded given that if you are scum you've now had to explain yourself numerous times and also been forced to take an offensive against me to deflect any suspicion away from yourself.

217 has redempted bji a little.
As for Irrelephant, his early interactions with bji and everything felt wrong. But I liked 232 and 242 and the justification that comes with it. I like to imagine myself at the place of the person to judge an action and this seemed coherent,

[bji]

3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.

Garmr took the hammer off me pretty quickly. I think Garmr has been playing long enough to know that a hammer was not going to happen there. All of the players who had expressed any scum leaning on me were already on my wagon. The only players who hadn't expressed any real opinion were the lurker twins Reaper and Flubber.

So given that Garmr has me as one of his top, if not as his top, scum read, why do you think he'd remove the hammer from me?

[Garmr]

3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.

Garmr took the hammer off me pretty quickly. I think Garmr has been playing long enough to know that a hammer was not going to happen there. All of the players who had expressed any scum leaning on me were already on my wagon. The only players who hadn't expressed any real opinion were the lurker twins Reaper and Flubber.

So given that Garmr has me as one of his top, if not as his top, scum read, why do you think he'd remove the hammer from me?

You can go jump off a cliff with that comment

Oh l-1 ok. I feel people panic to much when someone hit's l-1. That being said

UNVOTE: Bji
I don't want the day to end yet.

I been in this game long enough to know that scum can self hammer when at l-1 to deny information. I also know that town can yolo quick hammer(I've done that myself). Is it likely to happen no, but it's better to be safe than sorry.


Also that's scummy as fuck instead of bringing it to me to see my reaction or making a case. You bring it to another player. You pretty much avoided calling me scum. If you think you will avoid conflict with me that way you are fucking wrong.
VOTE: bji

[bji]

3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time.

Garmr took the hammer off me pretty quickly. I think Garmr has been playing long enough to know that a hammer was not going to happen there. All of the players who had expressed any scum leaning on me were already on my wagon. The only players who hadn't expressed any real opinion were the lurker twins Reaper and Flubber.

So given that Garmr has me as one of his top, if not as his top, scum read, why do you think he'd remove the hammer from me?

You can go jump off a cliff with that comment

Comment? It was a question. What exactly is your problem?

Do you actually get offended when someone asks questions about you? If so you may be emotionally unfit for this game and you might want to consider quitting.

I been in this game long enough to know that scum can self hammer when at l-1 to deny information. I also know that town can yolo quick hammer(I've done that myself). Is it likely to happen no, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

So the chance of getting more info out of your top scum read, of getting reactions and interactions between your top scum read at L-1 and other players in the game, is not worth the very low chance of a scum self-hammer (which you'll have to explain to me how that could possibly be a bad thing at this point in the game) or a yolo town quick hammer of your top scum read?

Sure seems like you're posturing as if I am your top scum read but in fact you know that I'm not scum so you can't actually bring yourself to care about my being hammered. I'm just another townie in your eyes, and you have so many more to kill anyway before you can win the game.

Also that's scummy as fuck instead of bringing it to me to see my reaction or making a case. You bring it to another player. You pretty much avoided calling me scum. If you think you will avoid conflict with me that way you are fucking wrong.

It's scummy to care more about gauging Sashaddin's reaction to that question than it is to take the question to you directly? Why?

Sorry my game is a little more complex than just asking people direct questions.

[Garmr]

@bji

Of course it's more complex than just asking direct questions. You are literally trying to feed your narrative to sashadin in the form of questioning. Instead of asking
"Why do you think garmr unvoted" which is free of bias you frame it in the most negative light scummiest way possible. If you were town you wouldn't be trying to taint a answer. I'm not new so I know when someone is trying use subliminal manipulation.

Also you can talk about being emotional unfit after last game.

[bji]

I'd just like to point out to everyone what just happened here so that town can be crystal clear on this:

I asked Sashaddin for his opinion of something that Garmr had done, and Garmr jumped out of the woodwork to defend himself against a question not even asked of him. He didn't wait to see what Sash had to say -- one would think that would be interesting detail that Garmr might want to know right? I mean Garmr would want to know that if he actually needed this "information" that is so important to him that he can't keep the hammer on me for fear of losing out on it ... but information about another player's viewpoint on his own play ... nope, he can't be bothered to wait to get it. He'd rather jump in and proactively defend himself.

Someone help me out here ... does Garmr actually want information or doesn't he?

[bji]

So feeding narrative isn't useful? What if I am trying to gauge how readily Sashaddin agrees with a certain conclusion?

But what do I know ... I'm just out here trying to get information ...

[Garmr]

I'd just like to point out to everyone what just happened here so that town can be crystal clear on this:

I asked Sashaddin for his opinion of something that Garmr had done, and Garmr jumped out of the woodwork to defend himself against a question not even asked of him. He didn't wait to see what Sash had to say -- one would think that would be interesting detail that Garmr might want to know right? I mean Garmr would want to know that if he actually needed this "information" that is so important to him that he can't keep the hammer on me for fear of losing out on it ... but information about another player's viewpoint on his own play ... nope, he can't be bothered to wait to get it. He'd rather jump in and proactively defend himself.

Someone help me out here ... does Garmr actually want information or doesn't he?

I caught you out trying to be something sneaky. When you got caught your response is not to respond to the accusation, but to ignore it and make another loaded accusation.

1.Can I ask you what information did you hope to get by asking a loaded question
2.If someone asked another person a loaded question framing you in a negative light. Would you wait while letting them be manipulated or call it out while the topic is hot?
3.Why did you ignore the fact you asked a loaded question?
4.Why are you trying to appeal to everyone else?

[Garmr]

So feeding narrative isn't useful? What if I am trying to gauge how readily Sashaddin agrees with a certain conclusion?

But what do I know ... I'm just out here trying to get information ...

I'll take this as a confession to doing it then.

I doubt that you would be gauging how readily he accepts that otherwise you would of said it when I called you out. Instead of throwing a accusation straight away. Sounds like to me you were caught out. This sounds more like a rushed defence you thought up after the fact.

[bji]

1.Can I ask you what information did you hope to get by asking a loaded question

When Sash lamented that the game was slow, I wondered if he'd even given any thought to the idea that the game being slow might say something about how comfortable scum was with the way the day was playing out. There are numerous arguments for and against this idea, but I think it's an interesting idea, and I was curious to know whether Sash had even considered them ...

Then he posted his list of reasons, and (1) and (2) were obvious and I agreed to them, I saw little of interest in those points. But (3) was interesting because he noticed something inconsistent between this game and his other games, which was that the hammer didn't last long at all this game and so the opportunity for discussion and ideas was lost. Which made me think back to when the hammer was taken away -- I didn't even have time to post an answer to the question "do you know the hammer is on you" before the hammer was back off again. I also thought this was odd because I was expecting more intense discussion of my play given that there had been so much active interest in my slot in days prior; if I were another townie I'd be frustrated that the opportunity to put some pressure on my slot was taken away. And I sensed a little of that frustration in Sash from that comment.

But I couldn't understand why he would not have then suspected something of you for taking the hammer away -- not even asked you why you did it.

So I decided to ask him a question about it -- to see what he thought might be your reasons for doing that. And yes, it was framed in a way to invite his suspicion because I wanted to see if he would resist something that I think should have naturally made him suspicious. It's reaction testing and basically just trying to get him to put down meaningful opinions about you that can be examined later in the game.

2.If someone asked another person a loaded question framing you in a negative light. Would you wait while letting them be manipulated or call it out while the topic is hot?

Depends on the situation, but generally I'd let it slide. Certainly I would have let that question to Sash slide, you've got no votes and plenty of time to defend yourself.

3.Why did you ignore the fact you asked a loaded question?

Huh? How did I ignore it? I acknowledged your categorization of the question in post 270 by re-using your terminology of "feeding narrative". Feeding narrative implies loaded question.

4.Why are you trying to appeal to everyone else?

I am making people I think are interesting make statements and express opinions about other people I think are interesting.

Is our interaction going to turn into a broken record where you keep asking me why I am doing stuff and I keep asking you why you are doing nothing?

I doubt that you would be gauging how readily he accepts that otherwise you would of said it when I called you out. Instead of throwing a accusation straight away. Sounds like to me you were caught out. This sounds more like a rushed defence you thought up after the fact.

You are creating a narrative based on your guesses about what I would have done.

I'll let town decide who is more likely to have been caught out here, me or you.

[Garmr]

1.Can I ask you what information did you hope to get by asking a loaded question

When Sash lamented that the game was slow, I wondered if he'd even given any thought to the idea that the game being slow might say something about how comfortable scum was with the way the day was playing out. There are numerous arguments for and against this idea, but I think it's an interesting idea, and I was curious to know whether Sash had even considered them ...

Then he posted his list of reasons, and (1) and (2) were obvious and I agreed to them, I saw little of interest in those points. But (3) was interesting because he noticed something inconsistent between this game and his other games, which was that the hammer didn't last long at all this game and so the opportunity for discussion and ideas was lost. Which made me think back to when the hammer was taken away -- I didn't even have time to post an answer to the question "do you know the hammer is on you" before the hammer was back off again. I also thought this was odd because I was expecting more intense discussion of my play given that there had been so much active interest in my slot in days prior; if I were another townie I'd be frustrated that the opportunity to put some pressure on my slot was taken away. And I sensed a little of that frustration in Sash from that comment.

But I couldn't understand why he would not have then suspected something of you for taking the hammer away -- not even asked you why you did it.



So I decided to ask him a question about it -- to see what he thought might be your reasons for doing that. And yes, it was framed in a way to invite his suspicion because I wanted to see if he would resist something that I think should have naturally made him suspicious. It's reaction testing and basically just trying to get him to put down meaningful opinions about you that can be examined later in the game.

If that was the case I think town would of done it in a unbiased way. A natural answer would of gathered more information in this scenario. Also that doesn't disclude a scum you from doing the same thing to try and manipulate someone else into making the case so they get hit with the flack when I flip town. Also your logic is flawed. Because I made it quite obvious I took the hammer away just in case and I thought it was no big deal that he got to l-1 in the first place. You portrayed it as me pretending to panic and taking the l-1 away. What I would consider scummy is someone going omg his l-1 quick unvote him.

2.If someone asked another person a loaded question framing you in a negative light. Would you wait while letting them be manipulated or call it out while the topic is hot?

Depends on the situation, but generally I'd let it slide. Certainly I would have let that question to Sash slide, you've got no votes and plenty of time to defend yourself.

I doubt this is the case but I will rephrase that. Somewhat knowing my reputation do you think I'm the type to let it slide and avoid conflict?

3.Why did you ignore the fact you asked a loaded question?

Huh? How did I ignore it? I acknowledged your categorization of the question in post 270 by re-using your terminology of "feeding narrative". Feeding narrative implies loaded question.

Yeah when I was writing that post i missed 270 which is why I responded after.

4.Why are you trying to appeal to everyone else?

I am making people I think are interesting make statements and express opinions about other people I think are interesting.

Is our interaction going to turn into a broken record where you keep asking me why I am doing stuff and I keep asking you why you are doing nothing?

I feel like you reaching out to others is trying to avoid a confrontation with me or in a less likely scenario calling out for help from your scum buddy. I don't think it would spin like a broken record.

I doubt that you would be gauging how readily he accepts that otherwise you would of said it when I called you out. Instead of throwing a accusation straight away. Sounds like to me you were caught out. This sounds more like a rushed defence you thought up after the fact.

You are creating a narrative based on your guesses about what I would have done.

I'll let town decide who is more likely to have been caught out here, me or you.

That's it your doing it again trying to cut the conversation short by to appeal to third parties. Your temperament is slightly different when you are the one getting pressured. If you are pressuring and in the dominant position your fine with 1v1 and continuing the argument on a personal level. But when I'm dominant and pressuring you try to cut it short and appeal to others instead of engaging in personal debate. Which makes me feel this is the right path of pushing