Open 738: Purgatory | LA FIN

[Keyser Söze]

Yep, Keyser-Eragon-LabRat is an imposssible scum team

[Eragon]

Moreover, yes, there’s nothing wrong with changing reads (I do it constantly), but you were holding both options open, to misslynch both of us (I suspect tactical opportunism)

Can’t get the bitter taste out my mouth after reading those 3 posts.

thing is, i was clear with my thoughts.

"i think hes probably town, but due to some of my doubts,i won't complain with a lynch"


and instead of focusing on the ones where i explained, you snipped the ones that were specifically

"im good with hammering either"
"voting keyser/creature 20 min"
instead of looking at the posts with explanation.

so i think its YOU who is mis-repping me here

[Ausuka]

who do you think keyser is town?
i could see having some reasons for a town lean, but willing to put in heaven im suprised tbh.

good tone and his ate at the end of d2 felt genuine, seems interested in scumhunting similarly to other games i played with him.

w/ volxen and tw, tw's read had a lot more nuance and progression? and i feel like he had a large role in like setting those players as scumread, whereas volxen is just like "yeah a few of these points why eragon is townreading creature are kind of wrong" at a time when i think creature and eragon are considered the scummiest players here, and says "Any why doesn't he consider the possibility that Keyser could be pushing him as scum as well? Why is Keyser the only person on his wagon that gets a free pass?" while quoting creature openly entertaining the possibility keyser is scum. tw's reads feel a lot more developed than volxen's in this regard and also his entire reason for pushing eragon and keyser as scum is essentially "they make sense as buddies with creature" but he's also like "I'm like 99.99% certain that there is at least one scum among {Keyser, Creature, Eragon}. I don't see a world where they are all town." which doesn't actually account for how his push was revolved around creature and preflip associations. his push today is basically just "people on the Creature wagon are scum" which seems like a really surface level view and doesn't at all account for the possibility that scum might have just stayed off the wagon which happens regularly in games generally.

i'm tired right now so sorry if none of this makes sense.

[Keyser Söze]

@Eragon - I didn’t stop t/reading Rat because she was s/reading me. It’s actually the intensity/authenticity of her s/read which I actually t/read. Please don’t miss-rep me.

then what is this?

```Then LabRat said he was going to do a re-read...

*MAYBE HERE*

Then LabRat started her surprising late assault on me:```

I don’t think you understand progression or final read on LabRat.


Do me a favour though: share me thoughts on Dr J and LabRat.

[Eragon]

I was VT

can you explain what the fuck this was about though?

[Keyser Söze]

Understand my*

[Keyser Söze]

I was VT

can you explain what the fuck this was about though?

I never lie about a role claim.

[Ausuka]

(I know that the basic answer to that is going to be "meta" like you've said in your ISO and I probably should've said that in the post above, sorry. I just don't understand why his ISO is so towny and I don't understand why his scumgame can't have just, improved - I don't think it's that rare.)

I'm concerned about him, mainly due to his general push of {Creature, Keyser, Eragon} i.e the most suspected players in the game as a category.

pedit: I think I'm alright at interacting with you? So I probably could just play for a few days and if I don't have a definite read back then go for the quotewalls etc.

It's within the scope of his town meta pretty comfortably and it'd be like quite a stretch for his scum meta

I don't think his scum meta is currently gearing towards improving so dramatically in such specific ways so to speak - I hope this makes sense but if not hmu and I'll iso dive

Yeah idk I don't get that. Does he really have such a distinctive scum meta to the point where you can easily predict exactly how it would improve? I mean, I've had scum games before where people have just believed that I'm town because I played a terrible scumgame with them recently and they believe an extremely mediocre scumgame was beyond my capacity; I think that sometimes just playing scum, even if you don't do so well, can help you get used to it and perform better next time. And IMHO volxen's play in Watchmen really wasn't that bad and could've got him pretty far had things gone differently / the game had a different playerlist?

I think his town and scumganes have been pretty markedly different (we play together lots and maybe I've probably inadvertently read all of his games on site I guess). plus we're like buds and have talked a bit about how we approach both alignments + he's sought some feedback from myself and others about his play

so within reason, I think I can anticipate a trajectory of his scumplay/townplay development yeah. Sorry it might sound bizarre from the outside looking in but I feel really comfortable. Relly's defence makes me feel pretty comfortable too (I think he does this as either alignment but it doesn't present as s/s)

but like people can change? like when you metaread me in mafia month it didn't work because i had changed my scumgame to subvert your expectations knowing that i was scum and you were town and the best way to not be caught by you, considering how well you knew me, was just to try and play outside the boundaries of what you knew of my play? do you think volxen, if rolling scum against you, could try the same thing as that? i kinda hard doubt he would just sort of roll over and play to what you KNEW was his meta as scum?

[Keyser Söze]

Moreover, yes, there’s nothing wrong with changing reads (I do it constantly), but you were holding both options open, to misslynch both of us (I suspect tactical opportunism)

Can’t get the bitter taste out my mouth after reading those 3 posts.

thing is, i was clear with my thoughts.

"i think hes probably town, but due to some of my doubts,i won't complain with a lynch"


and instead of focusing on the ones where i explained, you snipped the ones that were specifically

"im good with hammering either"
"voting keyser/creature 20 min"
instead of looking at the posts with explanation.

so i think its YOU who is mis-repping me here

All words no actions though.

Who were you voting for?


I don’t believe your town reads, neither your scum reads. You should have killed me yesterday.

[the worst]

Ughhhh Tw might not be town

Talk to me Relly
I'm gluing this town so I really can't afford your read on me to waver. sorry.

Plus if your reasons are as bad as DrJ"s we should deffo air them

[the worst]

scumteam and rarely has two scum (though if I were scum here I’d try my best to make that happen) so if I can find a solid town out of those three I *might* prefer that over volxen

I probably agree but Labby is always the solid town outta these 3. regardless... volxen is like hard town and is always a good heaven candidate

DrJ is subject to current inquisition because they've done a couple of little gross cheeky things I'm wondering if they thought they could get away with.

[the worst]

This legit feels sounds like a townie who doesn't want to be connected with scummy slime (me), or seen to be doing a suspicious U-TURN. LabRat jumped in to answering Eragon's question to TW and put the record straight: 'I HAVE NEVER HAD TOWN RELATIONS WITH THAT MAN!'
I think LabRat may be back in my good books.

Am I miss-reading this?

I agree, her tunnel is pretty towny and hard scumread on you feels pure

Do you have any doubts with Dr J?

I really wanted to sort Dr J and LabRat today.

Yes
Watch this space
ヾ(¯∇￣๑)

[the worst]

but like people can change? like when you metaread me in mafia month it didn't work because i had changed my scumgame to subvert your expectations knowing that i was scum and you were town and the best way to not be caught by you, considering how well you knew me, was just to try and play outside the boundaries of what you knew of my play? do you think volxen, if rolling scum against you, could try the same thing as that? i kinda hard doubt he would just sort of roll over and play to what you KNEW was his meta as scum?

in fairness, you have over a year's experience over volxen and are kinda cognisant of how to avoid being meta scumread. like to some extents. for example rn you look exactly like town you but I'm holding off on the read to better analyse intent/trajectory alongside of meta pings.

Sure there's a world where volxen could be scum but also I kinda think his contributions have been really towny as well. I know they're easier to fake than say, mine, but they're still showing a pretty clean train of thought imo.

[Ausuka]

but like people can change? like when you metaread me in mafia month it didn't work because i had changed my scumgame to subvert your expectations knowing that i was scum and you were town and the best way to not be caught by you, considering how well you knew me, was just to try and play outside the boundaries of what you knew of my play? do you think volxen, if rolling scum against you, could try the same thing as that? i kinda hard doubt he would just sort of roll over and play to what you KNEW was his meta as scum?

in fairness, you have over a year's experience over volxen and are kinda cognisant of how to avoid being meta scumread. like to some extents. for example rn you look exactly like town you but I'm holding off on the read to better analyse intent/trajectory alongside of meta pings.

Sure there's a world where volxen could be scum but also I kinda think his contributions have been really towny as well. I know they're easier to fake than say, mine, but they're still showing a pretty clean train of thought imo.

you're right that i have more experience over him but i also feel like you don't need experience to do this if that makes sense? like maybe i'm biased or something but I feel like you don't need experience to feel that, if you roll scum against someone who knows you and someone you've talked to about your scumgame, you would just avoid stuff you do in your scumgame and avoid stuff that you told that person you do as scum so you don't get caught. like, i think fooling people by subverting expectations is something that occurs outside mafia and is an idea i think most people would be familiar with even if they are completely new to the game of mafia itself.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm fine lynching creature/eragon

No comments on Eragon so far today...?

[Keyser Söze]

Still not sure with Ausuka, but been enjoying her defending me since D1 EoD

[the worst]

you're right that i have more experience over him but i also feel like you don't need experience to do this if that makes sense? like maybe i'm biased or something but I feel like you don't need experience to feel that, if you roll scum against someone who knows you and someone you've talked to about your scumgame, you would just avoid stuff you do in your scumgame and avoid stuff that you told that person you do as scum so you don't get caught. like, i think fooling people by subverting expectations is something that occurs outside mafia and is an idea i think most people would be familiar with even if they are completely new to the game of mafia itself.

this I agree with at a theoretical level but I think that acrually informs my townread of volxen again. He doesn't feel like volxy imitating his town meta so much as volxy just being volxy. I think when you first roll scum against someone who knows your game well, it's always a temptation to try (me rolling scum v Mathdino in Earthbound probably spewed my best scumgame to date) but as a newbie it's really not easy intuitively imitating your town meta without prompting, and without sounding awkward if that makes sense?

[the worst]

Relly I'm having a moment of mania

how about we send Keyser to heaven

[Keyser Söze]

Does anyone have any of these players in their PoE/bottom 3 reads:

Dr J
Irrellphant
LabRat
Volxen

[Keyser Söze]

Relly I'm having a moment of mania

how about we send Keyser to heaven

Naughty naughty
Remember that pact we made.. need to see LabRat flip first. If green then I’ll go, if scum I’m never allowed up to heaven

[volxen]

who do you think keyser is town?
i could see having some reasons for a town lean, but willing to put in heaven im suprised tbh.

good tone and his ate at the end of d2 felt genuine, seems interested in scumhunting similarly to other games i played with him.

w/ volxen and tw, tw's read had a lot more nuance and progression? and i feel like he had a large role in like setting those players as scumread, whereas volxen is just like "yeah a few of these points why eragon is townreading creature are kind of wrong" at a time when i think creature and eragon are considered the scummiest players here, and says "Any why doesn't he consider the possibility that Keyser could be pushing him as scum as well? Why is Keyser the only person on his wagon that gets a free pass?" while quoting creature openly entertaining the possibility keyser is scum. tw's reads feel a lot more developed than volxen's in this regard and also his entire reason for pushing eragon and keyser as scum is essentially "they make sense as buddies with creature" but he's also like "I'm like 99.99% certain that there is at least one scum among {Keyser, Creature, Eragon}. I don't see a world where they are all town." which doesn't actually account for how his push was revolved around creature and preflip associations.

his push today is basically just "people on the Creature wagon are scum" which seems like a really surface level view and doesn't at all account for the possibility that scum might have just stayed off the wagon which happens regularly in games generally.

i'm tired right now so sorry if none of this makes sense.

@Ausuka, do you really think my conclusion about their being scum on Creature's wagon is unreasonable? Even in games with the usual town:scum ratio (e.g., 7:2, 10:3, etc.), I still believe that in the vast majority of cases, townies don't get lynched without scum involvement, especially on day one where the most votes are required to achieve a lynch. I have done this kind of VCA analysis, as town, in multiple newbie games that I have played.

In this game, I believe this applies even more-so than usual because the town:scum ratio is 6:3 rather than 7:2, and a third of the original playerlist is scum. To put it in perspective, there are only 6 townies, so if Creature's mislynch wagon was all-town, it would mean that 100% of his fellow town players all voted to lynch him, and that the scumteam is {Keyser, Eragon, Labrat}. I'm 99.99% confident that isn't the case.

I furthermore concluded that Irrelephant isn't the sole scum on Creature's wagon, because his vote didn't really make a significant difference in the outcome of day one (i.e., Creature would have been mislynched even if Irrelephant did not place the hammer vote). So what is wrong with my conclusion that there is scum among {TW, Dr. J, Ausuka} based on VCA? Do you really think I should be entertaining the notion of a {Keyser, Eragon, Labrat} scumteam at this point?

[Keyser Söze]

{DrJ}
{Volxen,

Eragon

}
{Irrel,

Ausuka

,

TW

}
{} - Null
{

Lab

(?), Soze(?)}
{Creature}
{}

These
This read list feels... Outdated somehow?

Actually, gonna bump this readslist from D1 .

...does look (strange?)

Thinking Eragon's placement and Ausuka's.

[the worst]

Does anyone have any of these players in their PoE/bottom 3 reads:

Dr J
Irrellphant
LabRat
Volxen

:3 ~~

[Keyser Söze]

From D1/D2:

Not S-S:
TW-Dr J
Dr J-LabRat
Irrelephant-Volxen


[See if these are true post game]

[Keyser Söze]

Does anyone have any of these players in their PoE/bottom 3 reads:

Dr J
Irrellphant
LabRat
Volxen

:3 ~~

Is that none?