Overkill 2: A Blood-Thirsty Stallone Themed Game

[pinturicchio]

Putting profii as one of the only three townreads you have just before he's flipping it's pretty suspicious

[DrewVa]

I tend to infer bullying a lot harder as a situation where intimidation (and often social dynamics) are involved--but that's more from the PoV of an educator where the sort of bullying I deal with manifests as social and physical bullying.

Being like "Your rhetorical aggressiveness makes me uncomfortable to the point of wanting to replace out" comes off far less like bullying to me. It's not so much of a taking-the-ball-and-going home thing since the game can continue with a replacement and replacing out for personal reasons (such as feeling emotionally compromised from playing to wincon) are perfectly valid. I don't really see DrewVa's move to replace out as a threat so much as an actual indicator that your rhetoric is legitimately making them consider replacing out.

P-EDIT: That's what I'm saying. Profii's not confident enough to not spill the WINE.

P-P-EDIT: Day should continue but thread will lock so a flip can be posted and VC should reset.

Yes, I would never have said anything otherwise. I extremely dislike the kind of attention this whole thing has put on me. I wasn’t considering replacing out at the time, Drixx used the term, “hysterics” but I was bothered enough to realize I needed to be pro-active and try to nip it in the bud. The replacing out part happened, when he persisted with it. I don’t know how to deal with that. If I say to someone, please stop whatever, it’s really making me uncomfortable and they not only persist with it but even double down, it legit sends me into a panic - and yes there are very good reasons for that - nothing game-related. So that and that alone - was where the boundary crossing took place - when he made it clear that he didn’t GAF how his words were affecting me.

This post summarises my whole thought on the process - IMO it was more than obvious we were heading i this direction and I didn’t want to say shut up Drixz you’re being a dick (well I did)

So I just voted


Anyway, if I’m dead or not I’ll move on now...

I would like to think that scum!RR would have more integrity than to play that way. I just don’t think they would compromise their ethics like this, just to win a game. I’ve never played with scum!RR before but it takes a certain kind of character to do what you’re suggesting as scum and while RR may be wrong-headed and obtuse about how Drixx’s behaviour was affecting me, I think it’s a bit of a reach to think they’d be actually capable of being that well “evil” as scum. I mean anything is fair in a game, so long as it doesn’t violate the rules but I have trouble see either of the heads as ethically capable of something so low.

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Yeah let's not interact for the remainder of the game, you really push my buttons.

Who peed in your Cheerios today

[CheekyTeeky]

Putting profii as one of the only three townreads you have just before he's flipping it's pretty suspicious

What are you talking about? Why is he flipping?

[CheekyTeeky]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Yeah let's not interact for the remainder of the game, you really push my buttons.

Who peed in your Cheerios today

Life. She's a bitch.

[pinturicchio]

Putting profii as one of the only three townreads you have just before he's flipping it's pretty suspicious

What are you talking about? Why is he flipping?

Varsoon dayvigged him. I mean, we won't know if that's true until who knows when

[CheekyTeeky]

Oh ok well I missed that hold up.

[Varsoon]

Btw I’m about to head off but if Varsoon is not a day vig then we should lynch him - will explain when I arrive and can get access to a keyboard... 110 miles to go do couple hours

Why does my alignment change suddenly if I am a day vig or not?
I literally just lost a game with a scum day vigilante in it.

[DrewVa]

Btw I’m about to head off but if Varsoon is not a day vig then we should lynch him - will explain when I arrive and can get access to a keyboard... 110 miles to go do couple hours

Varsoon is one of my strongest townreads in this game. Other than an actual cop guilty or whatever, I am never voting him.

I can give you a link to BoR where he was scum. He played quite differently in that game.

However, I think you might also be town. I don’t think scum pulls this sort of gambit.

[CheekyTeeky]

A50 Last visited:Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:45 am

Yeah profii your vote is bad and you should feel bad
Anyway

Daykill : Profii

Ok so yeah he could flip as mod hasn't been on since.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Here you go:

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

This is a pretty clear ultimatum by you. You threatened that if I didn't do the following things:

1.) Stop criticizing your earlier posts for being circular reasoning and appearing to attempt to leverage meta and emotion into a town read (And I proved this already by quoting you, so stop lying and forcing me to quote your own posts back to you please).

2.) Stop talking to you at all

With the penalty for me refusing to do those things given as: "I will replace out."

Nothing I've said to you has been anywhere even

close

to the line. I've consistently addressed what you are saying and doing and made no commentary about YOU except to call you friend and let you know that I am absolutely not going after you personally. I even offered to show you a place where someone provoked me into going after them which would be me bringing up something uncomfortable and unpleasant and bringing attention to it solely so that you can feel better knowing that I really and legitimately am just talking about what you are SAYING and DOING and making no statements about you personally.

Because ... Mafia is a game of rhetoric and, at least on this site, many people use emotion as a battering ram to leverage people. I simply don't try to make people feel bad and while a game goes on I'm not going to allow any appeals to emotion, no matter whether or not I believe they are completely genuine and sincere, impact me. Too many people have taken advantage of making things "personal" for gain.


And yes ... I do believe that making a scene and threatening to replace out absolutely is browbeating and bullying. You are putting social pressure on me to shut up and stop calling attention to your behavior. If I give in to that pressure, then the heat comes off you and you have successfully used some arbitrary "You offended me" statement to leverage your way out of the hole you dug for yourself. If I don't (which I simply don't submit to that kind of pressure; I think it's really bad form and so I will always always always double down when presented with it), then you make a further scene and replace out, which I view as an attempt to get people to take sides.

It's really quite dramatic. Which is ironic.

~D

P-Edit: You really think you're some kind of clean and innocent dove here Nancy? You've slung the following personal attacks, at the least: Jerk, ass(hole?), wrong-headed, obtuse. All of them are PERSONAL CHARACTER JUDGMENTS. In contrast, I've been very careful to interact with your behavior without casting stones at you. A large part of that is the benefit of the doubt. I've only really seen you as scum that I can recall, so I am basically just assuming you are scum here and you don't actually behave this way all the time.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong. I'm well on the right side of the written rules and the spirit of those rules. You are the one who is way over the line and you need to stop. I'm seriously losing my patience with your behavior. This is three

consecutive

games now where you have pulled this kind of behavior. Furthermore ... you need to adult a bit and take ownership of your reactions. I have no control over how you take things and you are literally putting an absurd burden of politeness on me. I couldn't possibly be critical of your play and meet the standard you are trying to set.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you need to hear these two things badly:

1.) If you really cannot handle people suspecting you and being critical of your PLAY, then you probably need to work on that. I don't know any nicer way to say this and know that you'll understand.

2.) If your slot is scum, I am absolutely going to report you after this game. That would make 3 consecutive games that you were in with me where you were scum and used dirty emotional manipulation to further your win con, including personal attacks in each game. That's not okay.

[DrewVa]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because

Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game

. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Yeah let's not interact for the remainder of the game, you really push my buttons.

You’re response to me seems really over the top.

You said I did the same thing in Overkill 1 as I’m doing here. When I ask you to back it up, you conveniently pull this?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Cheeky

[CheekyTeeky]

Zzz. This is an exact repeat of last game. You misunderstand me, get nasty and make me back off just by flipping everything on me. I'm sorry you rolled scum/SK again.

VOTE: DrewVa

[CheekyTeeky]

You’re response to me seems really over the top.

The hypocrisy here is laughable here on many levels.

[Varsoon]

@DrewVA: How's Cheeky's suggestion of not interacting with you because you push her buttons different from your suggestion that Drixx not interact with you because Drixx pushes your buttons?

[Reasonably Rational]

So I'm going to try this and hope it works. This is for you

Nancy

:

Fundamental Attribution Error:

I believe you are falling prey to this particular cognitive bias when it comes to interacting with me. (This is giving you a gigantic benefit of the doubt, but that seems reasonable to me at this juncture). I can provide you with links to studies and in depth evidence of this, but I'll start with a quote from a fantastic bit of writing which gives a fairly decent basic summary of the bias:

Suppose you come into work and see your colleague kicking his desk. You think, 'what an angry person he must be'. Your colleague is thinking about how someone bumped him into a wall on the way to work and then shouted at him.

Anyone

would be angry at that, he thinks. When we look at others we see personality traits that explain their behaviour, but when we look at ourselves we see circumstances that explain our behaviour. People's stories make internal sense to them, from the inside, but we don't see people's histories trailing behind them in the air. We only see them in one situation, and we don't see what they would be like in a different situation. So the fundamental attribution error is that we explain by permanent, enduring traits what would be better explained by circumstance and context.

Understanding this is one of the bedrock foundations of rationalism and interacting with other rational agents.

~Drixx

P.S. - Anyone interested in an entertaining and easy to understand introduction to the basic ideas of rationalism should definitely check out hpmor.com

[CheekyTeeky]

I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees it.

Varsoon why did you wait so long to shoot profii for his vote?

[DrewVa]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Here you go:

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

This is a pretty clear ultimatum by you. You threatened that if I didn't do the following things:

1.) Stop criticizing your earlier posts for being circular reasoning and appearing to attempt to leverage meta and emotion into a town read (And I proved this already by quoting you, so stop lying and forcing me to quote your own posts back to you please).

2.) Stop talking to you at all

With the penalty for me refusing to do those things given as: "I will replace out."

Nothing I've said to you has been anywhere even

close

to the line. I've consistently addressed what you are saying and doing and made no commentary about YOU except to call you friend and let you know that I am absolutely not going after you personally. I even offered to show you a place where someone provoked me into going after them which would be me bringing up something uncomfortable and unpleasant and bringing attention to it solely so that you can feel better knowing that I really and legitimately am just talking about what you are SAYING and DOING and making no statements about you personally.

Because ... Mafia is a game of rhetoric and, at least on this site, many people use emotion as a battering ram to leverage people. I simply don't try to make people feel bad and while a game goes on I'm not going to allow any appeals to emotion, no matter whether or not I believe they are completely genuine and sincere, impact me. Too many people have taken advantage of making things "personal" for gain.


And yes ... I do believe that making a scene and threatening to replace out absolutely is browbeating and bullying. You are putting social pressure on me to shut up and stop calling attention to your behavior. If I give in to that pressure, then the heat comes off you and you have successfully used some arbitrary "You offended me" statement to leverage your way out of the hole you dug for yourself. If I don't (which I simply don't submit to that kind of pressure; I think it's really bad form and so I will always always always double down when presented with it), then you make a further scene and replace out, which I view as an attempt to get people to take sides.

It's really quite dramatic. Which is ironic.

~D

P-Edit: You really think you're some kind of clean and innocent dove here Nancy? You've slung the following personal attacks, at the least: Jerk, ass(hole?), wrong-headed, obtuse. All of them are PERSONAL CHARACTER JUDGMENTS. In contrast, I've been very careful to interact with your behavior without casting stones at you. A large part of that is the benefit of the doubt. I've only really seen you as scum that I can recall, so I am basically just assuming you are scum here and you don't actually behave this way all the time.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong. I'm well on the right side of the written rules and the spirit of those rules. You are the one who is way over the line and you need to stop. I'm seriously losing my patience with your behavior. This is three

consecutive

games now where you have pulled this kind of behavior. Furthermore ... you need to adult a bit and take ownership of your reactions. I have no control over how you take things and you are literally putting an absurd burden of politeness on me. I couldn't possibly be critical of your play and meet the standard you are trying to set.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you need to hear these two things badly:

1.) If you really cannot handle people suspecting you and being critical of your PLAY, then you probably need to work on that. I don't know any nicer way to say this and know that you'll understand.

2.) If your slot is scum, I am absolutely going to report you after this game. That would make 3 consecutive games that you were in with me where you were scum and used dirty emotional manipulation to further your win con, including personal attacks in each game. That's not okay.

Um Drixx, my response to Cheeky was requesting she back up her bs accusation from Overkill 1, not THIS game. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings, I tried to get through to you and you wouldn’t listen. I am not scum and you were really freaking me out. When someone begs you to stop doing something that’s legit hurting them - irrespective whether or not you think their reaction makes sense to you, you need to stop and consider if there was a less upsetting way to get that same point across. If you want to discuss it sometime PRIVATELY post-game, I guarantee I can make you understand but it’s not something I care to get into here.

[Reasonably Rational]

Btw I’m about to head off but if Varsoon is not a day vig then we should lynch him - will explain when I arrive and can get access to a keyboard... 110 miles to go do couple hours

This is a bad look man. Disappearing and then beetlejuiceing back in with this "just in case it was a reaction test" post. Eww.

~D

[Majiffy]

Drixx you're being a grade-A asshole here and it's definitely crossed from unintentional slight to willingly disrespectful and distracting to the game. Stand down on the attacks.

[CheekyTeeky]

Um Drixx, my response to Cheeky was requesting she back up her bs accusation from Overkill 1

It wasn't bs. I said you AtE'd and you DID AT ME last game, by throwing my reaction to tails in my face and calling me scum after you misunderstood my push on your slot. Now you're trying to do it to RR saying he's a bad person in place of saying I was an idiot.

[DrewVa]

Zzz. This is an exact repeat of last game. You misunderstand me, get nasty and make me back off just by flipping everything on me. I'm sorry you rolled scum/SK again.

VOTE: DrewVa

How am I being nasty? You shade me suspiciously and when I ask you to back that up, you freak out about it. You accused me of doing the exact same thing in this game as in the last one. If you find me proof, I’ll take my vote off of you. I’m not upset with you at all, I just think you might have rolled scum here.

[CheekyTeeky]

Maybe AtE is the wrong term - more like emotionally manipulative.

[Reasonably Rational]

Zzz. This is an exact repeat of last game. You misunderstand me, get nasty and make me back off just by flipping everything on me. I'm sorry you rolled scum/SK again.

VOTE: DrewVa

How am I being nasty? You shade me suspiciously and when I ask you to back that up, you freak out about it. You accused me of doing the exact same thing in this game as in the last one. If you find me proof, I’ll take my vote off of you. I’m not upset with you at all, I just think you might have rolled scum here.

Why is your read on her controlled by whether or not she finds prood that satisfies you?
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Here you go:

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

This is a pretty clear ultimatum by you. You threatened that if I didn't do the following things:

1.) Stop criticizing your earlier posts for being circular reasoning and appearing to attempt to leverage meta and emotion into a town read (And I proved this already by quoting you, so stop lying and forcing me to quote your own posts back to you please).

2.) Stop talking to you at all

With the penalty for me refusing to do those things given as: "I will replace out."

Nothing I've said to you has been anywhere even

close

to the line. I've consistently addressed what you are saying and doing and made no commentary about YOU except to call you friend and let you know that I am absolutely not going after you personally. I even offered to show you a place where someone provoked me into going after them which would be me bringing up something uncomfortable and unpleasant and bringing attention to it solely so that you can feel better knowing that I really and legitimately am just talking about what you are SAYING and DOING and making no statements about you personally.

Because ... Mafia is a game of rhetoric and, at least on this site, many people use emotion as a battering ram to leverage people. I simply don't try to make people feel bad and while a game goes on I'm not going to allow any appeals to emotion, no matter whether or not I believe they are completely genuine and sincere, impact me. Too many people have taken advantage of making things "personal" for gain.


And yes ... I do believe that making a scene and threatening to replace out absolutely is browbeating and bullying. You are putting social pressure on me to shut up and stop calling attention to your behavior. If I give in to that pressure, then the heat comes off you and you have successfully used some arbitrary "You offended me" statement to leverage your way out of the hole you dug for yourself. If I don't (which I simply don't submit to that kind of pressure; I think it's really bad form and so I will always always always double down when presented with it), then you make a further scene and replace out, which I view as an attempt to get people to take sides.

It's really quite dramatic. Which is ironic.

~D

P-Edit: You really think you're some kind of clean and innocent dove here Nancy? You've slung the following personal attacks, at the least: Jerk, ass(hole?), wrong-headed, obtuse. All of them are PERSONAL CHARACTER JUDGMENTS. In contrast, I've been very careful to interact with your behavior without casting stones at you. A large part of that is the benefit of the doubt. I've only really seen you as scum that I can recall, so I am basically just assuming you are scum here and you don't actually behave this way all the time.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong. I'm well on the right side of the written rules and the spirit of those rules. You are the one who is way over the line and you need to stop. I'm seriously losing my patience with your behavior. This is three

consecutive

games now where you have pulled this kind of behavior. Furthermore ... you need to adult a bit and take ownership of your reactions. I have no control over how you take things and you are literally putting an absurd burden of politeness on me. I couldn't possibly be critical of your play and meet the standard you are trying to set.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you need to hear these two things badly:

1.) If you really cannot handle people suspecting you and being critical of your PLAY, then you probably need to work on that. I don't know any nicer way to say this and know that you'll understand.

2.) If your slot is scum, I am absolutely going to report you after this game. That would make 3 consecutive games that you were in with me where you were scum and used dirty emotional manipulation to further your win con, including personal attacks in each game. That's not okay.

Um Drixx, my response to Cheeky was requesting she back up her bs accusation from Overkill 1, not THIS game. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings, I tried to get through to you and you wouldn’t listen. I am not scum and you were really freaking me out. When someone begs you to stop doing something that’s legit hurting them - irrespective whether or not you think their reaction makes sense to you, you need to stop and consider if there was a less upsetting way to get that same point across. If you want to discuss it sometime PRIVATELY post-game, I guarantee I can make you understand but it’s not something I care to get into here.

I'd be happy to talk after game. I'm sure A50 would make a PT for us and make sure we don't go off the rails.

What I really need you to understand in the time between now and then is this: You are setting way to wide and unreasonable an expectation. Sometimes people will say something that impacts you in an unusually hard manner which they cannot anticipate. You have said that's what happened here. Also please notice that I haven't gone back to the two specific things you pointed out since you pointed them out. The line, for me, is the actual things that I know will inflict hurt for no good reason (and there's few to no good reasons to hurt someone over a forum mafia game). That's the line. You can't block off entire portions of a game because something tangential to them was uncomfortable.

Obviously I don't go around trying to hurt people. Anyone who has played with me or talked to me at all will vouch. I view personal attacks as a measure of absolute last resort, and then only to get someone's attention. They serve no other useful function. Nobody gains a benefit from it.

Anyway ... I think we're reasonably well of the same viewpoint here. We understand one another and can continue and work it out after the game.

Now ... back to our regularly schedule massacre of the scums.

~D