Excalibur [Endgame]

Auro · Post Post #50 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:42 pm

And scum can choose to engage in mechanic-talk regardless initially, anyway.

DVa · Post Post #51 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:43 pm

In post 47, Auro wrote:Town should probably vote for a consensus scumread to claim Excalibur, for maximum benefit. If they're scum they can't claim and we get a confirmation in the night. If they're not scum and claim we know they're IC -- they're gonna either contribute the next day and kill themselves, or Merlin confirms they're Arthur and we move on.

I agree, if we can get the two top scumreads to gladiate each other, then the winner of the gladiation can claim the sword.

Lady Lambdadelta · Post Post #52 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:43 pm

In post 47, Auro wrote:
In post 42, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 39, Auro wrote:Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.
Sure. Give me Excalibur.
Town should probably vote for a consensus scumread to claim Excalibur, for maximum benefit. If they're scum they can't claim and we get a confirmation in the night. If they're not scum and claim we know they're IC -- they're gonna either contribute the next day and kill themselves, or Merlin confirms they're Arthur and we move on.

No, the correct method is for me to claim Excalibur, and then next day if I'm Arthur, to inform me.

Basically, me being unkillable and IC means people can't do the stupid paranoia thing about me. I get to give my reads without the whole "LLD is great at scum" argument.

I'm the optimal target.

Lady Lambdadelta · Post Post #53 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:44 pm

Why are you people so convinced you can convince two scum to gladiate each other?

It will never happen. Assume you will always have one town in a Gladiate and move from there.

Varsoon · Post Post #54 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:45 pm

LL coming out hot with the reads.
What makes Nancy and UT town?
Why is mechanical talk scummy in an open setup?
If I was scum and you asked me to bus-gladiate, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

In post 39, Auro wrote:Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.

Kill resolves before claim. Yes, we'd effectively gate the scum kill but we'd also render the setup as 13-4 mountainous.
But I think you're right in that we could effectively use the sword claiming as a one-shot cop, but, again, that renders the bulletproof aspect of it kind of useless.

@MOD: If Merlin dies and flips, does Arthur's identity get revealed with the flip?
Can Merlin claim Excalibur?

Auro · Post Post #55 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:46 pm

@DVa:
Cool. If this IS a good strategy, we need to figure out a consensus forming mechanism to decide the top two scumreads.

Merlin becomes a bit irrelevant here, though, as we have a fixed claimer every day anyway - the person holding Excalibur would vig someone *anyway*. Would the confirmation help during the day?

Lady Lambdadelta · Post Post #56 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:48 pm

In post 54, Varsoon wrote:LL coming out hot with the reads.
What makes Nancy and UT town?
Why is mechanical talk scummy in an open setup?
If I was scum and you asked me to bus-gladiate, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

In post 39, Auro wrote:Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.
Kill resolves before claim. Yes, we'd effectively gate the scum kill but we'd also render the setup as 13-4 mountainous.
But I think you're right in that we could effectively use the sword claiming as a one-shot cop, but, again, that renders the bulletproof aspect of it kind of useless.

@MOD: If Merlin dies and flips, does Arthur's identity get revealed with the flip?
Can Merlin claim Excalibur?

Tone on both. It's what I expect from them.

It's not that we can't talk mechanics. Mechanics is NAI. It's that talking mechanics and using them to smother other interactions that generate reads + create "content" for scummy players is scumsided. Explained in a prior post, happy to explain again.

Crossbus Gladiates are inherently bad for scum due to the White Flag rule. If one scum remains, they concede. Bussing is far more likely to create a single scum surviving scenario, and eventually scum need to leave associatives, which means bussing is bad, especially day 1.

Auro · Post Post #57 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:49 pm

In post 54, Varsoon wrote:Kill resolves before claim. Yes, we'd effectively gate the scum kill but we'd also render the setup as 13-4 mountainous.
But I think you're right in that we could effectively use the sword claiming as a one-shot cop, but, again, that renders the bulletproof aspect of it kind of useless.

I considered this, but claim can only happen if it's non scum. Scum NKing the voted claimant would be bad for them anyway, right?

The bulletproof aspect works once Arthur gets the sword.

FakeGod · Post Post #58 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:49 pm

In post 54, Varsoon wrote:
@MOD: If Merlin dies and flips, does Arthur's identity get revealed with the flip?
Can Merlin claim Excalibur?

No. Yes.

DVa · Post Post #59 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:50 pm

In post 53, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Why are you people so convinced you can convince two scum to gladiate each other?

We make it clear that if they gladiate a bad target they get lynched.

DVa · Post Post #60 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:51 pm

In post 55, Auro wrote:Cool. If this IS a good strategy, we need to figure out a consensus forming mechanism to decide the top two scumreads.

Unlimited hurt tags.

Everyone can hurt as many players as they want, and when there's a 'hammer' (simple majority) on one, they gladiate the next highest.

Elsa Jay · Post Post #61 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:51 pm

In post 45, Auro wrote:Re: LL and Jay, I think it's better overall to discuss mechanics and find out a good strategy at this stage, instead of starting with the accusations already. *Shrug*

I didnt start any accusations and was trying to get the town opinion on my idea before firebringer crapped on it and now Lady is making everyine ignore it by calling me scummy. That in itself is scummy AF.

To Varsoon: He specifically put in the rules only the fallen knights die if they claim Excalibur. That's what I was asking if we could just let Merlin claim it and be done with it.

Pedit: he also just confirmed my theory, so there's that.

Nancy Drew 39 · Post Post #62 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:52 pm

Anyone can secretly claim Excalibur during the night, and transform into a Bulletproof Vigilante. It will be publicly announced that the sword has been claimed, but not the identity of the player who claimed it.
If you are not the rightful owner of the sword, you will die instead of your target when you try to vig someone. If a Mafia-aligned player claims Excalibur, then he/she will immediately die.

So the claimant gets to be bulletproof? So, then whomever is Merlin, should ideally claim the sword, right?

Auro · Post Post #63 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:53 pm

Merlin claiming Excalibur is useless IMO because there's no real way to convey who Arthur is. The only reliable method of conveying that information is through a confirmation. Merlin claiming and holding the sword till dead just removed that part of the mechanic. Is there some way we can get a Merlin claim and have him as an IC with the sword, though?

Like, next night ONLY Merlin claims, next day he says he has it, so confirmed BP Inno. Can't be faked, right?

Lady Lambdadelta · Post Post #64 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:53 pm

In post 59, DVa wrote:
In post 53, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Why are you people so convinced you can convince two scum to gladiate each other?
We make it clear that if they gladiate a bad target they get lynched.

This will never work with players who have such strong egos. I can tell you straight up if you decide to try and make two of my townreads gladiate, I will actively fight to ensure it does not happen, up to and including gladiating my own preferred target.

Varsoon · Post Post #65 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:54 pm

@Auro: They kill town and keep the sword out of play, though, again, I don't think scum really have anything to fear if a townie WOULD get the sword is the problem, because then so long as that townie is not Arthur, it's just a BP IC and scum knows they're BP so they won't waste time there.

@Elsa: It's literally anti-town for Merlin to claim Excalibur for two reasons:
1. It ASSURES that Arthur will never get the sword.
2. It deprives us of an IC slot that the sword provides since Merlin is already an IC slot by claim.

DVa · Post Post #66 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:54 pm

In post 62, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:So the claimant gets to be bulletproof? So, then whomever is Merlin, should ideally claim the sword, right?

Merlin is already a unique named role, we get more value by having scumreads try to claim excalibur.

Varsoon · Post Post #67 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:55 pm

Honestly, we get more value from having a strong town leader claim the sword rather than using it as a jank cop on bad town that no one wants to keep around anyway.

DVa · Post Post #68 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:57 pm

In post 67, Varsoon wrote:Honestly, we get more value from having a strong town leader claim the sword rather than using it as a jank cop on bad town that no one wants to keep around anyway.

Well, the jank town can then test if they're Arthur or not the next night phase, thus giving us another cop action the next night.

Elsa Jay · Post Post #69 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:57 pm

That's what ive been trying to say. Not like anybody but Scum would CC Merlin.

The fact if Auther gets the sword means we get a vigilante that can fuck things up because some townies are more vocal theb others or they put their read above everyone elsa. I'd rather have Merlin as a swordproof IC and rely on the duel mechanic. The sword just fucks everyone elsa.

Nancy Drew 39 · Post Post #70 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:57 pm

In post 47, Auro wrote:
In post 42, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 39, Auro wrote:Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.
Sure. Give me Excalibur.
Town should probably vote for a consensus scumread to claim Excalibur, for maximum benefit. If they're scum they can't claim and we get a confirmation in the night. If they're not scum and claim we know they're IC -- they're gonna either contribute the next day and kill themselves, or Merlin confirms they're Arthur and we move on.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Anyone who is scumread can prove they’re town by claiming the sword and attempting to vig another consensus scumread. So then, Merlin shouldn’t claim the sword.

Lady Lambdadelta · Post Post #71 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:58 pm

In post 67, Varsoon wrote:Honestly, we get more value from having a strong town leader claim the sword rather than using it as a jank cop on bad town that no one wants to keep around anyway.

But the issue I realized just now is if I say "I'm taking it" I can just be shot to prevent it.

So we need two powerful town leaders both agreeing "we're taking it" so scum can only shoot one of us.

You and I or Myself and UT or even You and UT I'd be ok with, though I obviously prefer myself.

Auro · Post Post #72 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:58 pm

In post 65, Varsoon wrote:@Auro: They kill town and keep the sword out of play, though, again, I don't think scum really have anything to fear if a townie WOULD get the sword is the problem, because then so long as that townie is not Arthur, it's just a BP IC and scum knows they're BP so they won't waste time there.

Exactly so scum don't have incentive to NK the claimant -- even if they do, you're saying this then reduced to a mountainous?

A town leader claiming it would be all the better reason to NK that person.

DVa · Post Post #73 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:58 pm

Also I don't really agree that having a single strong town leader dramatically helps us here, it nearly cost us Witches Ball. Scum knowing who the one IC is makes it too easy for them to play around that slot. Consistently pushing PoE wins more often.

Lady Lambdadelta · Post Post #74 (ISO) » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:59 pm

In post 73, DVa wrote:Also I don't really agree that having a single strong town leader dramatically helps us here, it nearly cost us Witches Ball. Scum knowing who the one IC is makes it too easy for them to play around that slot. Consistently pushing PoE wins more often.

I refuse to be RC and force people to lynch in a list order. Actively refuse.