Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[bji]

Clemency, similarly, is using his vote to grow wagons and increase pressure on slots when others provide strong scumcases.

"Why not?" isn't a reaction to a strong scum case.

Why can't you "why not" a vote intended to grow wagons and increase pressure on slots when others provide strong scumcases?

[Persivul]

I guess you could, but that wasn't a strong scum case anyway.

[Clemency]

what's a pbpa

[Persivul]

Post by post analysis

[Clemency]

oh so like an iso but pedantic

[Persivul]

Yep. Creature gives thoughts, but the way he does it is really easy for scum to fake, and easy to reverse later.

[skitter30]

sash, how likely did it seem to you that the slot would be mod-killed?

At that time, a lot. Normal 2030 ended with a few double replacements and I had heard that the mod had been very patient, so I kinda flipped I guess. I just wanted to try to keep that option off the table.

i didn't think it was very likely that the slot would be mod-killed; that's usually used for extenuating circumstances, like the slot being empty for like a week and the mod being unable to get a replacement

i feel voting someone because the mod said she might mod-kill it if she couldn't get a replacement is a little ... idk the right word- oppurtunistic? lazy? sticking your vote somewhere for a meh reason of 'well it's better to lynch instead of mod-killing it'

idk if it's scummy per se that you did this, but it feels a little bit like a simplistic way of approaching the situation to me

==

bji is maybe town? not sure really?

==

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

i mean imo i think we're coming close to wanting to figure out how to end the day, and claims/hammer is part of that process

==

I buy these reads
This sort of throwaway townread on Sashaddin sounds like the kind of throwaway townread I've seen you accidentally give scum, I think you should want Sashaddin to work for it more before you give the townread tbh

you mean like enigma?

idk i low-key townread him
but i don't know how much of it is for playstyle? it isn't very strong and i don't have a good reasoning for it
the more i think of it the more i think it's like the enigma read which prob isn't a good indicator

also he feels kinda newbtownie to me? but i'm not sure how much experience he has or if he's playing that up a bit?

==

i'm not particularly good at reading irrel but i'm tending town on him rn

==

This was a weird and misreppy way to summarize the Bji post here

i don't know how to like explain this well / can't super articulate it
but persivul's posts feel a little off tonally? like stilted? or responding to the wrong things sort of, or focusing on the wrong things when responding a post. like nitpicky maybe?

Suppose he's cop. What's the claim that's best for town?

like this is an example of a post that feels that way to me
like it feels like he's trying to get bji into a discussion about what's optimal to claim in that situation and it feels a little bit like drawing convo away from the topics at hand and into mafia theory more, if that makes sense

yeah idk how well i explained that and i don't think i can articulate this much better rn but it's like a holistic gut-vibe thing i'm getting from his posts

==

hey irrel can you talk a little bit about your clemency?

==

i think creature's irritation at the wagon on him is kinda townie tbh

[Irrelephant11]

I like the points in the above post
I'm not sure I like the hedge-y vibe the post is full of. Mental note to revisit this if I'm in lylo with skitter

I don't think Clemency's sheeping is scummy, it basically never *actually leads towards a mislynch*, which I think scum would be trying to do under the guise of being sheepy
I think town throw their vote around more often, and while someone has said scum could easily fake it, I'm not sure I buy that that's what clemency is doing here (especially since sashaddin says this is familiar play from clem).
I think Clemency has had some genuine reactions and things that I've pointed out that I think come from town more often than scum, and regardless of sashaddin's alignment I think the fact sash townreads Clemency is +town more than most other people's reads on the slot.

Yes, like enigma. Also like porkens, and maybe like errantparabola? Haven't thought the last example through, but definitely the first two

I think I get what you're saying regarding Persivul. Do you think it's playstyle or scummy?

[bji]

it's just that a bunch of nothing is happening

I think you are not reading hard enough. Is there going to be a point in the game where you do start reading hard enough? Just give us a warning when it's about to happen ... so I don't go into cardiac arrest from the shock ...

[bji]

A question to the more experienced players: is there a role (town or scum or other) that would make only voting but not talking much a valuable play? I almost think I remember reading something about a role that can only post a certain amount ... it's so weird that Clem just sheeps votes and then pops in to say that nothing is happening (apparently only votes to sheep is "something happening?").

[bji]

Of course Sash has basically confirmed that this is how Clem plays so ... meh ...

[Irrelephant11]

also he feels kinda newbtownie to me? but i'm not sure how much experience he has or if he's playing that up a bit?

also I agreed with this so I went and looked - Sashaddin has five completed games, and in his first game, he had lots of questions, like heknew nothing about forum mafia. I might buy that she has those same type of questions here (all but one of his completed games are newbie games) but this ISO from the completed normal game had more game solving early on imo. Eh, this is not as clear-cut as I previously thought. Still don't think Sashaddin deserves townreads, though. I bet at least one player who has called Sashaddin town is scum, regardless of his alignment

[Clemency]

it's just that a bunch of nothing is happening

I think you are not reading hard enough. Is there going to be a point in the game where you do start reading hard enough? Just give us a warning when it's about to happen ... so I don't go into cardiac arrest from the shock ...

jokes on you

i can't read

[skitter30]

I'm not sure I like the hedge-y vibe the post is full of. Mental note to revisit this if I'm in lylo with skitter

honestly i've been having a tough few days and i don't really have the energy/motivation necessary rn to go back and check my feels/vibes against previous posts so i was just kinda posting whatever i thought without really going back to substantiate it the way i usually do if that makes sense

but it's more feels-based than i usually play and i feel less confident giving strong/concrete/definitive opinions without having gone back to do the legwork

like i just said 'i think x is kinda townie?' without actually going back to figure out where/why i'm getting that from or how that compared to prior posts

yeah idk how well i explained my current mindset/approach but i don't have it in me to play like that today, maybe i will in a few irl days

==

Yes, like enigma. Also like porkens, and maybe like errantparabola? Haven't thought the last example through, but definitely the first two

yeah i agree with enigma
porkens to a certain extent too but i was rethinking it but didn't really know how to sort him in that gamestate so i was kinda stuck with that read
ep was more because he had a few moments of incredibly towniness (how he distanced with tw) than because he kinda had a holistically townie playstyle like enigma did

but i can see myself finding into that sort of pitfall with scum!sash - i'll need to go back and check his iso at some point

==

I think I get what you're saying regarding Persivul. Do you think it's playstyle or scummy?

scummy but i'm aware that it could be playstyle which is why i didn't pounce on it
i need to back and kinda look through his posting more holistically to see when/where he's doing it, but again, idk when i'll get around to that

==

A question to the more experienced players: is there a role (town or scum or other) that would make only voting but not talking much a valuable play? I almost think I remember reading something about a role that can only post a certain amount ... it's so weird that Clem just sheeps votes and then pops in to say that nothing is happening (apparently only votes to sheep is "something happening?").

honestly i think that's more a playstyle thing than anything

==

also he feels kinda newbtownie to me? but i'm not sure how much experience he has or if he's playing that up a bit?

also I agreed with this so I went and looked - Sashaddin has five completed games, and in his first game, he had lots of questions, like heknew nothing about forum mafia. I might buy that she has those same type of questions here (all but one of his completed games are newbie games) but this ISO from the completed normal game had more game solving early on imo. Eh, this is not as clear-cut as I previously thought. Still don't think Sashaddin deserves townreads, though. I bet at least one player who has called Sashaddin town is scum, regardless of his alignment

yeah i had checked this last week but i didn't really get anything conclusive out of it
i don't think the way he's playing is an impossible progression as town compared to his newbie game, nor do i think it's impossible for him to fake as scum

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:

I checked prior games of Clem, 2 town and 1 scum. Scum game he posted very infrequently and then replaced out. Town games read much like this one, including one very specific item.

[bji]

UNVOTE:

I checked prior games of Clem, 2 town and 1 scum. Scum game he posted very infrequently and then replaced out. Town games read much like this one, including one very specific item.

So you think he's incapable of changing his style? Or of faking his style to fool the other player(s) who have played with him previously (Sash is the only one I know of).

Your reasons for joining the Clem wagon were bad and your reasons for getting off of it are even worse ...

Not AI btw, just an observation.

[Clemency]

UNVOTE:

I checked prior games of Clem, 2 town and 1 scum. Scum game he posted very infrequently and then replaced out. Town games read much like this one, including one very specific item.

hey best buddy could you specify what that item is so i can absorb it into my gameplay

[Persivul]

So you think he's incapable of changing his style? Or of faking his style to fool the other player(s) who have played with him previously (Sash is the only one I know of).

Yes, I do. If he were capable, he would have done so in that scum game. Playing scum correctly takes practice.

Your reasons for joining the Clem wagon were bad and your reasons for getting off of it are even worse ...

Not AI btw, just an observation.

Are you against meta in general, or just this particular case?

[Persivul]

hey best buddy could you specify what that item is so i can absorb it into my gameplay

LMAO. Uh, no, I'll keep that to myself.

[Creature]

Yep. Creature gives thoughts, but the way he does it is really easy for scum to fake, and easy to reverse later.

Faking a long PbPA post isn't also easy to do?

[Clemency]

aw come on buddy old pal old friend old chum
you can trust a friendly friend like me
remember all those memories we have together
like when you voted me

[Persivul]

Faking a long PbPA post isn't also easy to do?

No, it isn't easy to fake real analysis. There's a set of objective facts. Some conclusions are better supported by those facts than others. You can't just fake logical connections.

[bji]

Are you against meta in general, or just this particular case?

I am against certain kinds of meta in general. I do not find evidence that some player behaved a certain way in a certain game, especially when the impetus to draw that conclusion was looking for evidence to support an already questionable position, as compelling or worthwhile. It also takes more work than just reading the current game which I don't think is a fair burden to place on someone, to go and verify your argument by reading other games.

However, I do allow my own personal experience not with players, but with play states, to influence my judgement and set my direction in scum hunting. Things that have worked for me in the past I will do, even though my only evidence that this thing works is meta since it came from other games. But I don't expect these things to be particularly convincing to other players because of what I wrote in my previous paragraph.

[bji]

Yep. Creature gives thoughts, but the way he does it is really easy for scum to fake, and easy to reverse later.

Faking a long PbPA post isn't also easy to do?

Faking a long PbPA post as scum isn't any easier or harder than genuine-ing a long PbPA post as town. Which means that the ease is not the point.

The point is that you need to prove to the rest of town that you are town, if you are town. Persivul's request was game relevant and gives you an opportunity to do that (of course it will never be full proof but it will be evidence ...). So do it.

[Garmr]

VOTE: Creature
l-1

I wanted to see how a couple of things resolved before I did this now they have.