Excalibur [Endgame]

[Varsoon]

@SS: Why does it bother you that I hurt tag you? Literally no one else ever will so long as you continue to grandstand as this logical force for the betterment of the game.

[Auro]

You're polarizing in the reads catagory and I think that you've yet to give me a reason to believe your posting isn't scum hiding behind mechanics play. It's not a hard scum read, it's just a really good way of seeing where people fall and making them make a choice.

Agree on the "polarising reads" part, I think that in case I *am* lynched today that should give a

lot

of significant information to work off of.
Do you

really

feel like I've only been making mechanics-talk while not offering reads and engaging people outside of that? Because I feel like I've done that plenty,

in addition to

the mechanics talk.

Would a bunch of quotes from me where I'm not talking about mechanics *but* making reads and engaging people on what they said / making a stance on non-mechanic posts others have made, constitute enough reason?

Yeah, I think it is. You only learn about how people feel about them... without any of their reads being checked. It's too easy to put a hurt on someone in the public eye and parrot people's thinking at them. People want to be agreed with and seen as "right". Most people would ignore it. It can't go that way.

I'll disagree on this, I don't think it's so much feels-driven as to be completely useless. Everything is subject to useful analysis, and while the confounding factor exists, I don't think it's too much of a problem given sufficient content/interactions.

It's only a one day thing and if the whole town was "big personalities" the overton window would shift towards even bigger ones within that group. Having less loud less big personalities is required, inevitable, and over time it functions to assist the game. It's just day 1 you can't do it without being punished and losing a lot of valuable info.

I feel that this logic should extend to D2 as well, given the earlier assumption that D1 interactions are not fruitful -- vote analysis isn't exactly easy either when you have two options when you look at it isolated. What you're proposing, in the long term, applies with lesser strength IMO, and it feels like this sentiment would generally cause less loud "Big personalities" to get lynched over the course of the game.
I would argue that

removing

a "big personality" can be good just for the reason that they are a confounding factor.

[Gamma Emerald]

Unless, you’re suggesting that anyone who has the sword must also attrmpt to vig? But since this is not a desperado role, that only results in dead townies, so having Merlin confirm Arthur after he already has the sword makes sense, doesn’t it?

If one person grabs the sword and never tries to shoot it, then arthur never gets ahold of it in the first place though

If they don't vig they're confirmed town, yes, which is useful in it's own right (in fact, if arthur never grabs the sword then we have, potentially, an additional confirmed town to narrow things down), BUT it also means we have less power to try to put the sword on other people

Wacky theory:
Kills happen before claiming right? So wouldn’t an attempted claim the same night a non-Arthur Town shoots get the sword? That could be a way to expedite the sword changing hands.

@FakeGod What happens if someone tries to claim when the sword is already claimed?

They can’t. Once claimed, can never be unclaimed, unless the claimant dies, I think.

That’s not what I asked
I was thinking
X gets the sword n1
Y claims n2, X tries to use it n2
Does Y get the sword?

[Untrod Tripod]

If you are not the rightful owner of the sword, you will die instead of your target when you try to vig someone.

If the player who has the Excalibur dies, then it becomes publicly unclaimed again. You cannot willingly unclaim the sword.

Merlin cannot just outright say who Arthur is, because Mafia Nightkill resolves before the claiming of the sword.

unless the vig resolves at a different time than the mafia kill, the sword would be unclaimed at the claiming phase if the holder died that night.

[Auro]

Also, I really think people should look at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77673 and try to evaluate if Auro's play here matches how he played in this scum win he literally got today. I'm way way way too close to it to make an unbiased judgment.

I have two completed town games and two scum games, and an overall read of my posts should help, too.

Before anyone makes a case on the 'tryhard' or 'posts too much' meta, do consider that I've done this as both alignments -- a small exception being Mini 2040 (where I was killed N1) for a bunch of reasons. (First closed game, confusing playerlist, etc) I did wall and make cases, just not as aggressive as I was in the rest.

I'll also point out here that I

know

I've been accused as scum with a meta-case from Ruby Red in the game Varsoon linked, so I'm obviously self-cognizant of the chance of it happening.

DVa actually seemed to frame this against me, fully well knowing that I'd effort in any case (something I think I told her off-games as well, before).

[Gamma Emerald]

If you are not the rightful owner of the sword, you will die instead of your target when you try to vig someone.

If the player who has the Excalibur dies, then it becomes publicly unclaimed again. You cannot willingly unclaim the sword.

Merlin cannot just outright say who Arthur is, because Mafia Nightkill resolves before the claiming of the sword.

unless the vig resolves at a different time than the mafia kill, the sword would be unclaimed at the claiming phase if the holder died that night.

That’s what I’m thinking, but I want to verify it

[Auro]

DVa's the only one I have decent confidence on. I recently played BoR (of which this setup is a watered down version in a lot of ways) and DVa's play there was entirely different.

Cool, so I'm not the only one seeing this.
HURT: Dva

[Auro]

@Something_Smart:

Spoiler: Mechanics talk, again

For one, I feel that *for* the suicides to work as copping mechanisms, you need 100% town cohesion/control on who takes the sword. Even *one* town player not following this makes the sword claimed, which destroys its copping ability. I think it's apparent already that a few town are going to try and claim it no matter what, so unless we have a very convincing plan in the first place with this, we won't have town cohesion anyway.

We also have to remember that this kind of plan requires commitment over the days, in that people shouldn't go "Oh I'm better than the rest, I'll save the BP for myself" anyway. The extreme amounts of cohesion and commitment required makes this hard. Although if we can find a mathematically proven strategy to increase town win chances assuming they can follow a plan, it's worthwhile to try and coax town to co-operate.

That apart, the best strategy right now, to me is:
1. Propose and achieve consensus on following a gladiate policy of top hurt players claiming role, announcing intent to gladiate someone, and the other claiming role. Policy vote if not followed. (Achievable)
2. Everyone (except Merlin) tries to get the sword, so the scum doesn't hone in on who could have it. (Doesn't even matter if people don't try)
3. Merlin remains quiet unless pushed to gladiate or about to be gladiated by someone, or Arthur is. Likewise for Swordholder.
4. Hypoclaim on D2 on Arthur. (Achievable)
5. Merlin and Swordholder out on the day before LyLo. If CC'd, lynch to check. If not, great.

One question is: Is an Arthur hypoclaim more useful in D1, considering the 1/13 chance Merlin gets NK'd? (3/13 if he's pushed to a gladiate and outs himself)

What do you think of this?

[Auro]

Spoiler: Correction

One question is: Is an Arthur hypoclaim more useful in D1, considering the 1/13 chance Merlin gets NK'd? (3/13 if he's pushed to a gladiate and outs himself)

Correction: 3/17 if he's pushed to gladiate.

(I'm spoilering Mechanics talk so it's clearer to everyone that I'm not "hiding behind" this, and can easily read my other posts on an ISO)

[Auro]

Dunnstrall isn't trying to rope me into more mechanics discussion when it's already pissed me off so much the mod warned me to stop.

Weird you didn't hurt me when I was engaging you into mechanics too, independent of my completed scumgame.

[Varsoon]

You weren't aggressively against me, though--your posts all struck from actually looking to work with me and understand my PoV while not making yourself out as some rational counterbalance to my frustrations.

[Auro]

Oh OK, that makes sense.

[SirCakez]

im starting
see you in 15 pages (or less if I break up the posts)

[SirCakez]

actually closer to 20 wheee

[Auro]

I feel that this logic should extend to D2 as well, given the earlier assumption that D1 interactions are not fruitful -- vote analysis isn't exactly easy either when you have two options when you look at it isolated. What you're proposing, in the long term, applies with lesser strength IMO, and it feels like this sentiment would generally cause less loud "Big personalities" to get lynched over the course of the game.

@LLD: Discard this part of my earlier post to you, I misread your post.

[SirCakez]

random notes:

-I'm immediately mind-melding Maria and that has meant we are the same alignment before so TR there
-On ariane's nancy scumread: that kind of "agreeableness" was part of why I was trying to get some real content out of her. I'll see about her when I'm caught up. Also TR on Ariane for trying to move the game on. Scum would want the game to stay in the mechanics nether.
-Varsoon's extreme saltiness this game is irking me. I know some salt is par for the course for him but this game it almost seems like he's using it as a shield to make people not want to engage him. The post where he went off on S_S particularly. Like that was a massive overreaction. Scumleaning for now, scratch my TR for the "shut up about mechanics" post.
-UT will probably have to be lynched or vigged before endgame.
-Elsa Jay is making posts but not really saying anything in any of them which is scummy.
-LLD's rageposting makes me want to scumlean after Witches Ball.
-lol at Auro thinking he caught Fire scumslipping. I wish it was that easy. No that's just Fire being Fire. I don't think that's scummy @Dunn, it's just Auro not knowing Fire. Same with Auro thinking UT's willingness to YOLO gladiate is town. I actually think Auro's mis-reading of those two things is more likely town.
-I'm fully confessing to not reading 532 good god
-I want some non-mechanics content from Veridian

stuff I want responses to:

Also @Cakez: I take back what I said about the PLs, I'm also down to policy vote someone who gladiates out of protocol.

what caused this change of heart?

I'm only on pg 23 but dropping this now so it doesn't become enormous. atm players I would get rid of:
HURT: Varsoon
HURT: LLD
HURT: UT
HURT: Elsa

[Auro]

what caused this change of heart?

The threat of policy votes makes it less likely. Also makes the game a lot less fun. While in some cases I may scumread the yolo gladiator less than the challenged, I'll still policy vote the yolo-er.

[Varsoon]

How you gonna scumread me for something that I am mod-confirmed not to do anymore?

[SirCakez]

ty auro makes sense
@varsoon just because you can't do it anymore doesn't affect that you did it in the past.

still catching up but thought I'd check back in current time frame.

[SirCakez]

my natural dislike of over-toxicity isn't helping I'll admit

[Firebringer]

Cakez is town

[Varsoon]

Sorry, homie.
I've literally been playing in newbie games to try to curb this sort of thing because those are often games where I find myself having to deal with people wanting to rules-lawyer against me.
But since I was making progress and generally doing well in those games I thought I'd be fine here
I guess not. :/

[SirCakez]

random notes continued:

-This is mostly gut but I want to call this Dunn's town game.
-the trio of varsoon, LLD and UT going for the sword sounds good to me, I'm decently confident there's at least one or two scum in there
-I've noticed nancy has disappeared from the thread. could be she just went to bed but also i'm susp that she never put any scumhunting content out.
-d.va 595 is the post I would've made right around then if I was around. which I like.
-I'd really like some scumreads from Elsa too.
-I can't believe PLing an IC actually has to come up as a topic of discussion
-S_S 638 was town as shit
-I also agree with dva 640 and 648 - it's a super stupid topic
-663 was the kind of post I wanted from Veridian, excellent. It's not an especially good post (a lot of thread summary) but it'll surely be useful later once we have some flips.

I'm caught up to where I posted last night so ~6 more pages. I'd throw nancy and Kokichi in the hurt pile too but less strong on Kokichi. Plenty of good vig targets
HURT: nancy
HURT: kokichi

[Varsoon]

Cakez, I feel like S_S is going way out of their way to look town like that, though.
Compare to Veridian who is just naturally townie to S_S who is virtue-signaling left and right against me.
It's why I haven't revoked my hurt tag on S_S.

[FakeGod]

@FakeGod What happens if someone tries to claim when the sword is already claimed?

You cannot try to claim the sword if it's already claimed, even if you think the sword wielder will die during the night.