Excalibur [Endgame]

[Auro]

Yes, I *both* thought that we needed to avoid a shitty gladiation and *also* thought my existing jokes were overused. I had *both* positive incentive to talk about mechanics and reign in the incentive for yolo gladiations and *negative incentive* to do my usual schtick. This is not hard to understand and once again you are presenting things that are *not* contradictions as contradictions, i.e., REACHY BULLSHIT

Erhm, what I didn't like is that you quoted one reason and bring up another here WRT my "not understanding" your play. I never said it's contradictory, and my dislike still stands.

[SirCakez]

-I think the meta case on D.va is pretty weak. One or two games does not make a good sample. cases that revolve around "oh you were funny earlier that game but not this one" always fall flat to me. like auro's analysis of "chumminess" based on like two games feels pretty flawed.

It's not based on just one or two games. It matches with pretty much every game DVa has played. Around 5 games at least, just observable evidence - check her profile.

She's an alt, and she would admit that she finds it significantly harder to be "chummy" as scum.

Do these reasons make it stronger to you, Cakez?

Even w/more game evidence I still don't consider someone being more funny in one game then another to be great evidence because that can change entirely dependent on the game playerlist, how fast it gets serious, and the rolelist. also in personal experience I have never actively considered being more serious as scum to appear more town or whatever.

I mean 5 games where if she's town, she's a bit chummier, and as scum, pretty serious.

You said my push on her felt genuine to you. Is this something you can explain a bit more in specifics? What would change in my push for it to look fake, for example?

it's kind of gut and tone, and your posts on this page are reinforcing it w/how engaged you are. like I don't feel you would pick this duel at all if you were scum. that said I don't know you very well.

Why? Have you read any of my scumgames on this site? I’m guessing no.

no and I don't need to, this game is this game. you still haven't given any scumreads that I can see.

[Auro]

Even w/more game evidence I still don't consider someone being more funny in one game then another to be great evidence because that can change entirely dependent on the game playerlist, how fast it gets serious, and the rolelist. also in personal experience I have never actively considered being more serious as scum to appear more town or whatever.

I agree, and wouldn't have bothered much. Except for her own admission that she finds it a lot harder as scum to be non-serious.

I mean, *objectively* that slightly increases the scum likelihood for her. Other play-based reasons can supercede this, surely.

[Auro]

@Nancy: Either you're scumreading me or agreeing with others scumreading me.

I'll ask you now to take a stance, and explain why you scumread me, or not.

[DVa]

Except for her own admission that she finds it a lot harder as scum to be non-serious.

Except this is literally something I have never said

[Varsoon]

I've played alongside scum!DVa before, and "seriousness" is a part of her scum meta -- just check her games. What makes this stronger is that she won't deny that she *finds it harder* to be chummy as scum. Just ask her that.

Get gladiated so I can lynch you kthxbai

You keep saying that but you keep not dueling.
There's literally nothing keeping you from being the one doing the gladiating other than some sense of self-preservation that you shouldn't even care about because if you're town you can just claim sword.

[Auro]

Except for her own admission that she finds it a lot harder as scum to be non-serious.

Except this is literally something I have never said

Okay, so do you *deny* it?
Or would you say such a thing?

[DVa]

There's literally nothing keeping you from being the one doing the gladiating other than some sense of self-preservation that you shouldn't even care about because if you're town you can just claim sword.

I would prefer for the town to be convinced by my case, hurt Auro, and then have him gladiate another scumread. Gladiating him myself gives me nothing to find his buddies

[DVa]

Okay, so do you *deny* it?
Or would you say such a thing?

Do I deny saying the thing I never said? I sure do

Would I say something that is untrue about my self meta? Probably, most people don't describe their self meta at all because having people argue about their self meta is unfun and stupid

[Something_Smart]

@Something_Smart:

Spoiler: Mechanics talk, again

For one, I feel that *for* the suicides to work as copping mechanisms, you need 100% town cohesion/control on who takes the sword. Even *one* town player not following this makes the sword claimed, which destroys its copping ability. I think it's apparent already that a few town are going to try and claim it no matter what, so unless we have a very convincing plan in the first place with this, we won't have town cohesion anyway.

We also have to remember that this kind of plan requires commitment over the days, in that people shouldn't go "Oh I'm better than the rest, I'll save the BP for myself" anyway. The extreme amounts of cohesion and commitment required makes this hard. Although if we can find a mathematically proven strategy to increase town win chances assuming they can follow a plan, it's worthwhile to try and coax town to co-operate.

That apart, the best strategy right now, to me is:
1. Propose and achieve consensus on following a gladiate policy of top hurt players claiming role, announcing intent to gladiate someone, and the other claiming role. Policy vote if not followed. (Achievable)
2. Everyone (except Merlin) tries to get the sword, so the scum doesn't hone in on who could have it. (Doesn't even matter if people don't try)
3. Merlin remains quiet unless pushed to gladiate or about to be gladiated by someone, or Arthur is. Likewise for Swordholder.
4. Hypoclaim on D2 on Arthur. (Achievable)
5. Merlin and Swordholder out on the day before LyLo. If CC'd, lynch to check. If not, great.

One question is: Is an Arthur hypoclaim more useful in D1, considering the 1/13 chance Merlin gets NK'd? (3/13 if he's pushed to a gladiate and outs himself)

What do you think of this?

You are right; if anyone takes the sword with intent to be BP, it disrupts the "use sword as a cop" plan. I think the only person who expressed interest in doing so is LLD, and she seems like she'd probably agree not to do it if it interfered with the plan.

I think this plan can be improved by letting everyone pick whether they go for the sword; probably not everyone will want to be BP and confirmable, if they're either likely to be townread or unlikely to be killed.

I also think it might be improved by introducing some more uncertainty into Merlin/Arthur. Obviously we need to strike a balance between making sure town knows what to do if Merlin dies versus not letting scum figure out who Merlin is too easily. I'm considering if it might be better to hypoclaim two potential Arthurs. That I think would fit better with a plan of using the sword as a cop, but it's still a possibility.

[DVa]

You keep saying that but you keep not dueling.
There's literally nothing keeping you from being the one doing the gladiating other than some sense of self-preservation that you shouldn't even care about because if you're town you can just claim sword.

btw, this right here is precisely why I began this game by arguing against yolo dueling. Because even though *I would gladiate Auro rn* doing so would be harmful to town's endgame and sorting process.

[Auro]

There's literally nothing keeping you from being the one doing the gladiating other than some sense of self-preservation that you shouldn't even care about because if you're town you can just claim sword.

I would prefer for the town to be convinced by my case, hurt Auro, and then have him gladiate another scumread. Gladiating him myself gives me nothing to find his buddies

Not seeing a comprehensive case from you. Apart from the "potential scum" you read me earlier, the crux of your push on me now seems to be because you think my FoS on you and further engagement was my scumgame.

By all means, make a detailed case on me, allow me to refute it, explain the scum motivations behind everything I did, then get the hurts piling up on me.

[Auro]

@Something_Smart:

Spoiler:

I think it's more than just LLD who would want to claim the sword, and this also depends on the claimants agreeing to vig. Would LLD agree to that too?

Announcing intents to claim could be bad, actually, if more than one wants to, since this gives scum a much narrower NK pool. I think I'd want Swordholder to remain hidden and block potential NKs.

That said, any reads you have on people at the moment?

[DVa]

I first needed to establish that you were lying about things I said in my self meta. You have wasted like two pages of thread space arguing I have said I am not chummy when I'm scum when I have literally never said that. You are filling space in the thread pointlessly provoking me with reachy bullshit. Argument after argument of meta crap that is either baseless or not pertinent to this game. Even if true, it wouldn't be scum indicative here, and it *isn't even true*.

So tell us Auro, why did you decide to make multiple arguments that all hinge on me saying something I have never actually said? Are you only trying to provoke me? Are you trying to pollute the thread with a facile and meritless argument? Or are you simply trying to inflate your post count and come off as engaged? Because I see literally no possible town motivation in *pretending I said shit I never said and then using that to scum case me*

[Something_Smart]

-S_S can you talk about people besides varsoon?

Anyone in particular? I don't trust myself to read half these people.

UT feels like he did as scum.
Auro feels genuine.
Whatever I say about you is guaranteed to be wrong so I just won't
I've seen Gamma play stronger than this as town.
Dunn feels towny but that counts for very little. I remember identifying with something he said, but it might just have been his "bad post" response to UT's "bless this post" gif, and although I felt the same way that's very easily faked.
I doubt I have the requisite experience to read LLD this early.
I know I don't have the requisite experience to read Fire or Maria.
I don't know if Elsa is even readable, but I'd bet that his playstyle's changed a lot since I last played with him. (I know he plays differently based on what account he uses.)

[Auro]

Okay, so do you *deny* it?
Or would you say such a thing?

Do I deny saying the thing I never said? I sure do

Would I say something that is untrue about my self meta? Probably, most people don't describe their self meta at all because having people argue about their self meta is unfun and stupid

Noted, on the first part, I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I just misremembered really bad.

Aha the second part: That's not what I'm asking. This isn't self-meta, this is you acknowledging there's a certain behavior you find it harder to emulate as scum.

Let me rephrase - Do you find it harder to chummy up as scum?

[Something_Smart]

@Something_Smart:

Spoiler:

I think it's more than just LLD who would want to claim the sword, and this also depends on the claimants agreeing to vig. Would LLD agree to that too?

Announcing intents to claim could be bad, actually, if more than one wants to, since this gives scum a much narrower NK pool. I think I'd want Swordholder to remain hidden and block potential NKs.

That said, any reads you have on people at the moment?

I wouldn't advocate for announcing intent to claim, but definitely anyone who doesn't want the sword shouldn't claim it.

As for reads, I haven't been able to keep up with the game because I had a 7 hour drive on Sunday and I went to a concert yesterday, and I'm not as good at forming reads through rereading and ISOing. I definitely don't want to do that as a first impression because first impressions already hold undue weight. You can see what I said in the previous post but unfortunately you won't be able to get much out of me yet.

[Varsoon]

All these cool kids with their alts while I'm keepin it real over here.

I'm not really understanding how pitting two people who are both global scumreads against each other benefits us at all.
Like if they're just both town, doesn't that just heavy implicate the other when the one flips town?

[MariaR]

I have no urge to catch up but LLD going for the sword is who I want. SS/and prob UT glad
Dva LLD sword
Pedit: Dw varsoon you're cool to me

[Auro]

So tell us Auro, why did you decide to make multiple arguments that all hinge on me saying something I have never actually said? Are you only trying to provoke me? Are you trying to pollute the thread with a facile and meritless argument? Or are you simply trying to inflate your post count and come off as engaged? Because I see literally no possible town motivation in *pretending I said shit I never said and then using that to scum case me*

1. Because you've said it elsewhere, I've read it before. Besides, I'm asking you to say or deny that now anyway. (That you find it harder to be chummy as scum)
2. *I* don't need to be the one provoking. I can lurk and I'm pretty damn sure there's gonna be others triggering and provoking each other.
3. I don't need to wage some battle with you to come off as engaged.
4. Ehrm but there's town motivation in improving my read on you slightly because of an objective (even if weak) reason

[Varsoon]

Apologies for being 'obnoxious', btw.
I like to think I've stepped a lot down from that since.

Also I still think most people going for sword is important because then it actually gives us a chance arthur gets sword instead of ends up being the mook who doesn't and, on top of that, keeps scum from being able to plan their kill around swordclaimers.

[Something_Smart]

I'm not really understanding how pitting two people who are both global scumreads against each other benefits us at all.
Like if they're just both town, doesn't that just heavy implicate the other when the one flips town?

Maybe, but if they're both global scumreads then they were going to be suspected anyway.
What we want is to have scum up on the stand so we can see how they and the other players react.

[DVa]

@Auro, Do you really fucking think I'm going to give you more self-meta bullshit to misremember and misrepresent? If you're unable to interpret what I have already said why would I give you more? You haven't earned it.

@Varsoon, You're not thinking in the longer term. D1 two scum reads gladiate, one is mislynched, the other gets the sword if they're town (or maybe someone else gets it if they're scum). If they don't get the sword and they gladiate again, and flip scum, then we can more usefully look back at the previous votes and see which were more likely to be busses or informed and which were more likely lost town. The point isn't for a single wagon to be game-winning it's for each dayphase to maximize information so that as we move toward lylo the living players have more useful information to evaluate.

[Something_Smart]

Also I still think most people going for sword is important because then it actually gives us a chance arthur gets sword instead of ends up being the mook who doesn't and, on top of that, keeps scum from being able to plan their kill around swordclaimers.

The odds that Arthur gets the sword are 1/12, no matter how many people go for the sword. The only way we can increase that is to give the players some say in choosing who gets the sword, which would allow Merlin to push for Arthur to get it without being obvious.

[Auro]

I wouldn't advocate for announcing intent to claim, but definitely anyone who doesn't want the sword shouldn't claim it.

Spoiler:

I had this in mind but didn't want to point it out. Makes it easier for scum to guess *who* would go for the sword, based on sentiment in D1 and also considering it's a burden some may not be expected to take. We should encourage everyone to try, and if someone *absolutely* doesn't want to, obfuscate your intention in the thread and act like you do want to.