Open 741: Red Flag [Endgame]

[pinturicchio]

In other news, I didn't like BJs' entrance

. The post was fine, I laughed, but seems like it was prepared before the game started. My problema with that is that it was a huge post and it's obvious that took a lot of effort.

I tend to scumread people who puts that much of an effort on RVS; preparing a post before the game starts is past that line

.

Even if I still believed that the message was prepared beforehand, I still would be inclined to believe that ruru is town here

Pintu, help me here sort this out, but for me it seems like you really had something against BlackJacks in 185 for their big post, very close to a scum read, however after us debating it a little and not thinking it's a big deal, you say in 233 that you would still townread BlackJacks even if you did believe in their post being made beforehand.

My point is that I kinda don't feel that how you adressed BJ in 185 comes from someone that genuinely believes her to be towny in a general sense.

Am I wrong somewhere?

I think I explained my thought process pretty damn well in 233, the part you cut off I mean. ruru's reaction, more than the "discussion", was that made me remember ruru's town meta. You're making it look like I changed my mind because people started pressuring my point of view, which is not the case.

[pinturicchio]

Mmmh, I've got interested here (not necessarily scum reading)

VOTE: Pintu

Pintu, about Ruru meta, you said she was that way in the game you guys played. However, do you think that would be a reliable tell here?

I don't understand your question

[Nibbui]

I think I explained my thought process pretty damn well in 233, the part you cut off I mean.

This is the part I cut off:

Spoiler:

Ok, I'm backing off with this. The "incompetent" thing made me realize that I was proyecting my own incompetence to compose messages quickly because of my lack of experience in forums in general and because of my bad english, so the quoting on the message surprised me. I mean, I could compose that message in two hours too, but I wouldn't because... it would take me two hours and that's not worth it

You had explained your thought process behind finding the big post bad there, not how although you did think Ruru was towny you seemed to be suspicious of her (What is my point, which you didn't explain until now here:

ruru's reaction, more than the "discussion", was that made me remember ruru's town meta.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're making it look like I changed my mind because people started pressuring my point of view, which is not the case.

When I said that you changed your view because of pressuring? My main point is that you seemed suspicious of BJ's big post, but later said that even if you were right in your suspicious, you would still town read her, what seemed to me as if that big post discussion wasn't as relevant to you as you made it sound before.

The answer would be what you said in a part of this post, that you just got a town read on Ruru afterwards.

I mean, I'm not trying to paint it on any color, that was kinda defensive of you pintu, but yeah sometimes might be normal to get like that I guess...

[THE MEME MEN]

Problem is, I'm absolutely baffled by Gamma at this point; I've never seen him put that much effort in any game I've been with him before, and I've seen him as VT, town PR and scum, so I don't know what to say about his effort in here.

i dont think ive seen you even played with GE for awhile until this game. As scum he comes across quite town. As town he's more...casual I guess

-LH

[Nibbui]

Mmmh, I've got interested here (not necessarily scum reading)

VOTE: Pintu

Pintu, about Ruru meta, you said she was that way in the game you guys played. However, do you think that would be a reliable tell here?

I don't understand your question

Do you think Ruru's scum meta would be the same here?

[THE MEME MEN]

“Games boring” - then do something pro-active

i like keys for town. been awhile since i played with keys town
blackjack, cee, ge too based on my catchup so far

Carcalily is still missing, right?

yeah she's def needing to get replaced

-LH

[pinturicchio]

Mmmh, I've got interested here (not necessarily scum reading)

VOTE: Pintu

Pintu, about Ruru meta, you said she was that way in the game you guys played. However, do you think that would be a reliable tell here?

I don't understand your question

Do you think Ruru's scum meta would be the same here?

Oh I have no idea. I only know that I have a 100% accuracy on reading ruru, in games I've been with and without her. In fact, the game I was scum with her I replaced in a slot assuming that ruru was one of the scums, but not knowing that I was replacing in to be her partner. It's not about meta itself, since I haven't seen scum!ruru since that game, but for me, overconfident ruru = town ruru

[THE MEME MEN]

Yes, don't confuse mutual adoration and sensual affection with SvS.

i.e is that a rational/natural conclusion from town!MEME? I thought it was cheap.

A lot of people think my reaction tests and gambits are terrible...but hey, every now and then they seem to work lol.

-LH

[pinturicchio]

Hey meme masters, should I know who you are or are you on incognito mode on purpose?

[THE MEME MEN]

I only know that I have a 100% accuracy on reading ruru, in games I've been with and without her. In fact, the game I was scum with her I replaced in a slot assuming that ruru was one of the scums, but not knowing that I was replacing in to be her partner. It's not about meta itself, since I haven't seen scum!ruru since that game, but for me, overconfident ruru = town ruru

I've seen people say they have 100% accuracy in reading someone but that's usually ends up not being the case..
I saw a completed open game of her town play with alonzo, performer, skitter, korina. That game there of hers didn't strike me as "overconfident"....

-LH

[THE MEME MEN]

Hey meme masters, should I know who you are or are you on incognito mode on purpose?

No one knows who we are


as for tw replacing out - he does this as either alignment like in the mini normal where he was with nm as mafia gunsmith and that open game with ruru town. I find this extremely troubling to the mod and players but that's above my pay grade.
on a related note, rc saying he doesnt feel like trying...is disturbing because that doesnt sound like typical wildcard rc.

-LH

[pinturicchio]

I only know that I have a 100% accuracy on reading ruru, in games I've been with and without her. In fact, the game I was scum with her I replaced in a slot assuming that ruru was one of the scums, but not knowing that I was replacing in to be her partner. It's not about meta itself, since I haven't seen scum!ruru since that game, but for me, overconfident ruru = town ruru

I've seen people say they have 100% accuracy in reading someone but that's usually ends up not being the case..
I saw a completed open game of her town play with alonzo, performer, skitter, korina. That game there of hers didn't strike me as "overconfident"....

-LH

Sorry, but having 100% accuracy is not the same that having A 100% accuracy; in all the games I've read with ruru in it, I've always been right. That's a fact until disproven. Could this be the case? Of course.
About you reading a ruru's game and not getting the same conclusions I get from her: that says nothing about my accuracy, since you're not me.

[pinturicchio]

Also I must say, you guys are giving too much emphasis on my ruru's read right now when I've not in any case solved that slot, it's too early to know that. I just said that something ruru said pinged me as town since it resembled something that I have seen in her town range and not in her scum range, but her scumrange could've widened since I left this place.
FoS on both Nabbui and MEME MEN, because of this. You guys being too worried about me "solving" a slot could mean I'm right and you don't want that so early in the game

[Nibbui]

Pintu, you're kinda getting too defensive with me again...

MEMEMEN might be questioning you about the veracity of your read, however I was questioning your thought process behind your actions, that for now had been your read/discussion on Ruru. That's not the same thing and I would appreciate if you didn't put us together in a little nice box .

About the statement "overconfident ruru = town ruru" I don't know, but what I observed in Ruru's scum game while reading today, was that she was very argumentative and always engaged in discussion opposed to what we've been seeing here: a more non-serious Ruru and not-so-engaged Ruru. I was curious though wondering wheter she could have changed her scum meta but...maybe not...

Well, let's keep going

[Blackjacks]

My scum meta is to scream into a pillow

[Blackjacks]

Lynch volxen

[pinturicchio]

Pintu, you're kinda getting too defensive with me again...

MEMEMEN might be questioning you about the veracity of your read, however I was questioning your thought process behind your actions, that for now had been your read/discussion on Ruru. That's not the same thing and I would appreciate if you didn't put us together in a little nice box .

About the statement "overconfident ruru = town ruru" I don't know, but what I observed in Ruru's scum game while reading today, was that she was very argumentative and always engaged in discussion opposed to what we've been seeing here: a more non-serious Ruru and not-so-engaged Ruru. I was curious though wondering wheter she could have changed her scum meta but...maybe not...

Well, let's keep going

Ok yeah, this is the second time you say this and you're right. In my defense, you actually voted for me, even if you said it wasn't because of a scumread but because of, let's say, "pushing" me to get some answers. So even if you say I'm getting defensive, I am defending myself from a vote, so...
For me, not taking everything too seriously is a sing of confidence

[pinturicchio]

My scum meta is to scream into a pillow

Exactly

[Nibbui]

Now to the polemic question:

Are scum going to buss or not?

[Nibbui]

Ok yeah, this is the second time you say this and you're right. In my defense, you actually voted for me, even if you said it wasn't because of a scumread but because of, let's say, "pushing" me to get some answers.

So even if you say I'm getting defensive, I am defending myself from a vote

, so...

I do get that. I don't think that defending yourself from a question or accusation is bad or scummy.

When I say "getting too defensive" it's because in two of your replies, you had one or two lines giving me backslash for what I would consider unjustified reasons:

I was neither saying you changed your read because of pressure, nor doing the same thing that MEMEMAN was (and those were the backslashs).

But well, it's not necessarily

that

AI, sometimes town can do it too, I myself included

[pinturicchio]

Yeah yeah what I implied there is that I shouldn't be reading you based on that questions, they were fair

[Nibbui]

Ah thanks. I’d probably call that out as either alignment? Is there a different reason that is town?

just your tone of your reply.
-LH

It might be a bit hard to explain but what part exactly of the tone you think was towny? and what kind of reaction you think he would have as scum?

I would appreciate if you could answer this.

[Aster]

THE MEME MEN's answers

It took LH@THE MEME MEN almost two days to answer my questions, and what did we get out of it?

A glorious exercise in beating-around-the-bush

. Let me walk you through his post.

I dont do rvs anymore, i personally jump straight to business like james doakes and penguinpower do.

✓ Statement does not answer the question.

THE MEME MEN told us to be careful voting during RVS, so I asked him whether he thought RVS was bad. "I don't RVS myself" does not answer the question, which clearly intended to ask whether he thought RVS shouldn't happen at all; what does he think about other players RVSing?

players using words when they're sure, or not using words - it depends on the context like what they're trying to attain - whether reaction testing or whatever

✓ Skips one question.
✓ Doesn't answer the other.

The main question was whether players shouldn't vote lightly. A subquestion asked about the alternative of "using only words without voting". Yet he answers like the question was "Are words bad?"

look at Herebus with the 14 player large normal, moderated by Krazy. that had 4 scum.

✓ Cites anecdotal evidence.
✓ Cited evidence does not support his point.

Herebus day one had only two out of four scum on the lynchwagon, which is completely average since over half the town was on the lynchwagon. If anything, Herebus demonstrates that the scum will not collectively jump on the lynchwagon merely because they can.

Yes, they did collectively jump on the lynchwagon at LyLo, and that's completely beyond the point. Of course mafia would collectively quickhammer a LyLo wagon when they can. The real issue is about whether mafia will try to collectively quickhammer during early game.

---

Going Deeper

There is something about these answers. It seems that THE MEME MEN are unwilling to answer questions with "yes" or "no" and are instead trying to write something that resembles an answer but actually isn't. I get the impression that they hope my questions will just disappear, which is further corroborated by LH taking his sweet time to answer my questions while RH avoided looking like a lurker; he could've been trying to just stall things hoping town's attention shifts elsewhere in the meanwhile.

Now, if THE MEME MEN were town, why do they need to avoid answering questions? If he believed in his opinions, he could've confidently presented them; they weren't scum opinions at any rate. Alternatively he could have realized and admitted that although he hadn't thought things through, he made his suggestion in good faith.

On the other hand, if THE MEME MAN is scum, this behaviour makes a whole lotta sense. He clearly cannot confidently present his opinion because he knows it is a scum opinion and/or doesn't even believe it himself. He can't find another presentable opinion that doesn't make him look stupid. He doesn't admit that he hadn't thought things through because I said earlier that I expected town to crusade that his opinion is right, and certainly he doesn't want to look like folding scum. Stuck with a no-win situation, he tries to make things go away by stalling and beating around the bush.

Tl;dr:

THE MEME MEN opened the game with a LAMIST suggestion. I think his suggestion was unlikely to have been made in good faith. THE MEME MEN are scared to talk about their opinions leading to their suggestion.

VOTE: THE MEME MEN

[pinturicchio]

OMG I don't care about your alignment, I love your style

[THE MEME MEN]

lol this is the first time we've been in RVS together and I finally get why LH is always mislynched early game

-rh