Open 741: Red Flag [Endgame]

[Blackjacks]

On the other hand, if THE MEME MAN is scum, this behaviour makes a whole lotta sense. He clearly cannot confidently present his opinion because he knows it is a scum opinion and/or doesn't even believe it himself. He can't find another presentable opinion that doesn't make him look stupid. He doesn't admit that he hadn't thought things through because I said earlier that I expected town to crusade that his opinion is right, and certainly he doesn't want to look like folding scum. Stuck with a no-win situation, he tries to make things go away by stalling and beating around the bush.

The lamist post itself was kind of scummy to me, but why do you think scum, choosing to make a lamist post about mafia theory, would post something they themselves don't believe?

[Blackjacks]

-r

[northsidegal]

Votecount 1.4

Gamma Emerald (1):

Keyser Söze 100

THE MEME MEN (2):

Volxen 105, Aster 297

Nibbui (2):

pinturicchio 142, THE MEME MEN 211

Volxen (1):

Blackjacks 238

pinturicchio (1):

Nibbui 272

Not voting (6):

Clemency, Carcalilly, ceejayvinoya, RadiantCowbells, Springtrap, Gamma Emerald 127

With 13 alive, it’s 7 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-12-09 14:42:59).

[Gamma Emerald]

pedit: ok calling them bland answers is a little insulting. "regular answers," then

-LH

Pintu’s #3 was interesting.

[Aster]

The lamist post itself was kind of scummy to me, but why do you think scum, choosing to make a lamist post about mafia theory, would post something they themselves don't believe?

It seems plausible for scum to do it because I literally did that myself in my last scumgame (link.)

(Long story short: based on the town's lack of information there was a potential MyLo. Scum knew there was no MyLo. I then warned town about the potential MyLo to (1) slow down their operations, (2) make them think twice about lynching my troubled scumpartner, (3) score town points for myself.)

Telling town to be careful sounds pretty townish, even if it is blatantly bad advice. For some reason characters in movies always tell others to be careful, even when being careful will most likely get them killed and being quick is the best bet. I can very well imagine that (1) scum noticed the potential to throw four votes on a bandwagon, (2) realized there were nevertheless practical difficulties to it, and (3) wanted to salvage some of the situation by warning town for town points.

[THE MEME MEN]

Ok let's try this again, since it's starting to look like a death tunnel from scum.

Glad you're responding. Can you please answer the following questions?

Do you know what RVS is?

yes, a stage where many players claim to joke vote . Yet the votes get counted

Do you think RVS is a bad thing?

bad as in people making joke votes then later complaining about fluff posting or inactivity - then yes it's bad

Is it a bad thing for players to generally have votes standing to indicate who they are most suspicious of, or to exert pressure?

nope. Why would you ask this question?

Would it be better if players only used words to communicate and only placed their votes when they were sure they wanted a lynch?

if only words or votes, sure, votes would be better

Do you believe mafia will actually try to collectively quicklynch a bandwagon provided they can get three townie votes?

yes, and the post should've been clear as day. ceejay understood it, for instance

Beginning to disagree with RH's tr of you. We'll get together later to discuss.

The way aster is projecting what HE did in a past game onto us, looks scummy. Anyone see the micro game with okapoka and saudade scum? Aster resembling the former.

-LH

[THE MEME MEN]

FoS on both Nabbui and MEME MEN, because of this. You guys being too worried about me "solving" a slot could mean I'm right and you don't want that so early in the game

I think you're being a little extreme here? I'm not worried about you solving a slot, I think I'm more worried that you 100% believe you can read someone. that is NOT the way to go. anyway I dont think its productive to argue with people who scumhunt like this.

-LH

[Blackjacks]

It seems plausible for scum to do it because I literally did that myself in my last scumgame (link.)

But you weren't exactly making up mafia theory that you didn't believe; if you were town in that game, there

would

be a potential mylo from your perspective

-r

[pinturicchio]

Dude, did you read what I said? I don't 100% I can read someone; I said that in all games I've read with ruru in it, I've always been correct about her. That's a fact, not a belief.

[pinturicchio]

^@uglyheads

[THE MEME MEN]

^@uglyheads

How did you know we won the uglyheads prize this year on mafiascum?

I mean, this post sounded like you could do that, that's what I was getting at:

I only know that I have a 100% accuracy on reading ruru,

-LH

[Gamma Emerald]

THE MEME MEN's answers

It took LH@THE MEME MEN almost two days to answer my questions, and what did we get out of it?

A glorious exercise in beating-around-the-bush

. Let me walk you through his post.

I dont do rvs anymore, i personally jump straight to business like james doakes and penguinpower do.

✓ Statement does not answer the question.

THE MEME MEN told us to be careful voting during RVS, so I asked him whether he thought RVS was bad. "I don't RVS myself" does not answer the question, which clearly intended to ask whether he thought RVS shouldn't happen at all; what does he think about other players RVSing?

players using words when they're sure, or not using words - it depends on the context like what they're trying to attain - whether reaction testing or whatever

✓ Skips one question.
✓ Doesn't answer the other.

The main question was whether players shouldn't vote lightly. A subquestion asked about the alternative of "using only words without voting". Yet he answers like the question was "Are words bad?"

look at Herebus with the 14 player large normal, moderated by Krazy. that had 4 scum.

✓ Cites anecdotal evidence.
✓ Cited evidence does not support his point.

Herebus day one had only two out of four scum on the lynchwagon, which is completely average since over half the town was on the lynchwagon. If anything, Herebus demonstrates that the scum will not collectively jump on the lynchwagon merely because they can.

Yes, they did collectively jump on the lynchwagon at LyLo, and that's completely beyond the point. Of course mafia would collectively quickhammer a LyLo wagon when they can. The real issue is about whether mafia will try to collectively quickhammer during early game.

---

Going Deeper

There is something about these answers. It seems that THE MEME MEN are unwilling to answer questions with "yes" or "no" and are instead trying to write something that resembles an answer but actually isn't. I get the impression that they hope my questions will just disappear, which is further corroborated by LH taking his sweet time to answer my questions while RH avoided looking like a lurker; he could've been trying to just stall things hoping town's attention shifts elsewhere in the meanwhile.

Now, if THE MEME MEN were town, why do they need to avoid answering questions? If he believed in his opinions, he could've confidently presented them; they weren't scum opinions at any rate. Alternatively he could have realized and admitted that although he hadn't thought things through, he made his suggestion in good faith.

On the other hand, if THE MEME MAN is scum, this behaviour makes a whole lotta sense. He clearly cannot confidently present his opinion because he knows it is a scum opinion and/or doesn't even believe it himself. He can't find another presentable opinion that doesn't make him look stupid. He doesn't admit that he hadn't thought things through because I said earlier that I expected town to crusade that his opinion is right, and certainly he doesn't want to look like folding scum. Stuck with a no-win situation, he tries to make things go away by stalling and beating around the bush.

Tl;dr:

THE MEME MEN opened the game with a LAMIST suggestion. I think his suggestion was unlikely to have been made in good faith. THE MEME MEN are scared to talk about their opinions leading to their suggestion.

VOTE: THE MEME MEN

God this was amazing. This is the good side of wallposting.

Vote: THE MEME MEN

[THE MEME MEN]

pedit: hm. I think your meaning was talking about the past and I was thinking you means past , present, and future. I think that's where the miscommunication happened . @pikachu

-LH

[Gamma Emerald]

Ok let's try this again, since it's starting to look like a death tunnel from scum.

Glad you're responding. Can you please answer the following questions?

Do you know what RVS is?

yes, a stage where many players claim to joke vote . Yet the votes get counted

Do you think RVS is a bad thing?

bad as in people making joke votes then later complaining about fluff posting or inactivity - then yes it's bad

Is it a bad thing for players to generally have votes standing to indicate who they are most suspicious of, or to exert pressure?

nope. Why would you ask this question?

Would it be better if players only used words to communicate and only placed their votes when they were sure they wanted a lynch?

if only words or votes, sure, votes would be better

Do you believe mafia will actually try to collectively quicklynch a bandwagon provided they can get three townie votes?

yes, and the post should've been clear as day. ceejay understood it, for instance

Beginning to disagree with RH's tr of you. We'll get together later to discuss.

The way aster is projecting what HE did in a past game onto us, looks scummy. Anyone see the micro game with okapoka and saudade scum? Aster resembling the former.

-LH

What, DDU? That’s a very strange mention I feel. Also gives a significant pointer of who you might be. Also I don’t really see any projecting.

[pinturicchio]

pedit: hm. I think your meaning was talking about the past and I was thinking you means past , present, and future. I think that's where the miscommunication happened . @pikachu

-LH

Yeah, I know there was a miscommunication, that's why I explained myself in the post directed to you before; this second time explaining myself is not a miscommunication, it's that either you didn't read the whole post or you took what you wanted of it to keep pushing your agenda.

[THE MEME MEN]

What, DDU? That’s a very strange mention I feel. Also gives a significant pointer of who you might be. Also I don’t really see any projecting.

What's ddu? And I spectate games every now and then, so there's that.

-LH

[THE MEME MEN]

It took LH@THE MEME MEN almost two days to answer my questions,

I have other priorities too so, this is a reach.

-LH

[Nibbui]

I had a feeling it would come to this...

I'm hoping Aster is town here, it would be quite troublesome otherwise...

I get what Aster is saying honestly. LH beat a lot around the bush in some questions, be it from Aster or from other people (me included), but dunno what to do with that. I feel like lynching MEMEMAN, mostly because of the LH, ever since I joined the game.

However, to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I too feel that Aster is trying to create a narrative to their point without considering much other possibilities to some facts. That is not necessarily AI though, it may just be Aster's playstyle, but yeah there's that.

I think it would help a lot if LH did name their main, that way we could get to known if he is just a bit self-destructive or if the bad posts here are actually scum-indicative.

[THE MEME MEN]

@nibbui or anyone else: if I don't answer your questions , I may not have seen them. Or I just don't answer them because I find them irrelevant , and I do this as any alignment.
In terms of saying I'm self destructive, as town I'm not self destructive - as thor & perf say , don't be self destructive when town!

-LH

[Keyser Söze]

ACTIVITY Praise The Lord

What I meant is that your tone is completely different here. You are leading conversations, when you usually go for the one liner. You're using exclamation points, when you usually don't. No matter how much you contribute, it always feels like you stay on the fence; I'm not feeling that here. I think you've deliberately changed your playstyle in here so you could not be read by meta. I don't know what to think about that, since I don't think that's a thing that only scum would do.

Interesting... @Gamma would you say you have consciously made an effort to change your style/aura this game?

Ah thanks. I’d probably call that out as either alignment? Is there a different reason that is town?

just your tone of your reply. that and I noticed everyone else was replying with bland answers to your rqs so I thought, "if I put something obviously false, how would he respond to that reaction test?"

-LH

Hmm so a planned reaction test within a reaction test I can

maybe

buy that. I did think it was cheap read though, (I had a scum-scum theory fermenting between you two in my head: t/reading and letting eachother off the hook too easily/softly)... but now gonna take a step back and look at you individually.

[Nibbui]

Let's look for example in this post:

It seems plausible for scum to do it because I literally did that myself in my last scumgame (link.)

(Long story short: based on the town's lack of information there was a potential MyLo. Scum knew there was no MyLo. I then warned town about the potential MyLo to (1) slow down their operations, (2) make them think twice about lynching my troubled scumpartner, (3) score town points for myself.)

This is what I consider not-so-honest accusation. Look, the situation is actually quite different and I think you are aware of that, but either because you're a townie very enthusiastic in accusing or because you are Mafia only trying to accuse, I feel that you weren't completely intelectually-honest.

The difference is that in this game you had information that town didn't have, and since them didn't know, although your advice was bad from the informed perspective, from town perspective at that moment it sounded like a good advice.

We all knew about the four scum since the begin, and anyone thinking about it

a little

would figure both the benefits of scumteam bandwagoning just as well the difficults of doing so without arising suspicious. Majority of us thought it was bad from the get-go, there was no trick there.

Telling town to be careful sounds pretty townish, even if it is blatantly bad advice.

While this part and the rest are indeed true and honest. I can picture some players giving not-so-useful advice just to try looking Town, mostly when rolling scum, but sometimes even as town. It's a error to think people would necessarily calculate everything in my opinion.

I mean, you have a point, but just like within parts of the wallpost, you try to go over the extra mile and ends up kinda intelectually-dishonest. There was no need to link your game where a different situation happened only to try to have anedoctal evidence

I would let it pass this time around as I'm not so opposed to a MEMEMAN's lynch, however I feel like that would repeats itself over and over if not adressed right now.

[THE MEME MEN]

Hmm so a planned reaction test within a reaction test I can maybe buy that.

are you the only one seeing this, keyser lol .... I dont see how it's a planned test within a test
in related news, GE starting to look not so hot either, by sheeping that aster case

-LH

[Nibbui]

@nibbui or anyone else: if I don't answer your questions , I may not have seen them. Or I just don't answer them because I find them irrelevant , and I do this as any alignment.
In terms of saying I'm self destructive, as town I'm not self destructive - as thor & perf say , don't be self destructive when town!

-LH

It's not so much as that you "don't answer the question at all" as it's that you answer, but your answer kinda only answers half or superficially what the question asked about usually.

by the way, you might have missed a new question from me:

Ah thanks. I’d probably call that out as either alignment? Is there a different reason that is town?

just your tone of your reply.
-LH

It might be a bit hard to explain but what part exactly of the tone you think was towny? and what kind of reaction you think he would have as scum?

I would appreciate if you could answer this.

Try to answer a bit more elaborated for us to get inside your head.

[Gamma Emerald]

What, DDU? That’s a very strange mention I feel. Also gives a significant pointer of who you might be. Also I don’t really see any projecting.

What's ddu? And I spectate games every now and then, so there's that.

-LH

double day unlimited
And ok

ACTIVITY Praise The Lord

What I meant is that your tone is completely different here. You are leading conversations, when you usually go for the one liner. You're using exclamation points, when you usually don't. No matter how much you contribute, it always feels like you stay on the fence; I'm not feeling that here. I think you've deliberately changed your playstyle in here so you could not be read by meta. I don't know what to think about that, since I don't think that's a thing that only scum would do.

Interesting... @Gamma would you say you have consciously made an effort to change your style/aura this game?

I guess I inadvertently did? I believe I have the most posts right now which is generally an anomaly for me. So I guess overall I’m taking a more proactive approach this game.
I’ll definitely return to this game when working on improving town meta, as the things Pintu said are things that I feel are good.

[Nibbui]

in related news, GE starting to look not so hot either, by sheeping that aster case

-LH

Aster has, like, a very good point there, it's not weird to agree with her. What I don't like about Gamma though is that until now he didn't see anything wrong with you, and even if he says "I got convinced by Aster's case", there is no way to prove that that is the case. Gamma was kinda lost before and didn't know what to do or who to vote, although it makes sense for him to sheep here as town, as scum makes more so in my vision, since there would be nothing better than a case he could get behind without taking much responsability, and if you're maybe his partner, not look bad afterwards.