Overkill 2: A Blood-Thirsty Stallone Themed Game

[davesaz]

Notice the RR in that.

[Reasonably Rational]

How do you verify Toog without him getting modkilled

He doesn’t, so long as he’s the hammer, if I’m understanding his role correctly.

I suppose it’s fine for now but whenever we can confirm a slot, it’s always a good thing, no?

How does that confirm him though? That just means he can cast the hammer vote, not that he can’t cast any other votes.

Well, I just thought hammering would confirm him. \_0_/

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Seriously. Tell me what you thought Toog's role was, and what line of reasoning led you to that conclusion.

-Cerb

He’s an actor, right? So, hammering doesn’t confirm like with priest?

You're asking me questions. I'm not here to explain this to you. I'm here to figure out why/how you believed what you believed.

-Cerb

I obviously need those questions answered first.

If you didn't know the answer to those questions,

how did you have such certainty that it was VERY IMPORTANT that the hammer be saved for Toog?

-Cerb

Why would a scum self hammer to prevent his partner from hammering. That makes no sense

Because it makes you ask that question. There is now the appearance that scum was concerned about Toog's role claim. Others already inferred it might be a hammer powered role of some kind instead of specifically (or only) what Toog claimed.

Then there's Chick's post that Cerb quoted which is all kinds of bad. It's one of two things:

1.) An intentional red herring from Chickadee

OR

2.) Failed WiFoM by Chickadee

Raw probabilities vastly favor #2.

Since we've already gotten one person literally chainsawing Toog and attacking the idea that Chick accidentally linked to a partner (despite my intentional withholding of our reasoning for now) ... I think I'll see how much more hole gets dug.

Suffice it to say that I'm pretty sure Toog is scum here. The reasoning is sound.

Nancy picked up on it and just needs to be more confident.

~D

Re: the bolded. So,which is it? Am I over or underconfident with my reads?

Talking about two separate things(and from two different heads, but I hate that excuse)

In the first post I was checking for TMI/tracking your line of reasoning for the conclusion you had arrived at, since it didn't make sense for you to conclude that it was VERY IMPORTANT for Toog to hammer with the information we had.

In the second we've decided Toog is probscum, and Drixx is trying to push you to vote for them.

This is all completely separate from the interaction where I asked Toog about why they wouldn't vote and save town a mislynch if they were actually town. And no, I disagree that making sure that Toog was aware that doing so was a possibility, and almost certainly the optimal line of play to take, looks bad to anyone capable of evaluating the interaction objectively.

The part of it that looks bad is my omission of an explicit statement that he should take such action only when near lynch, though I did state that the situation described was one where he was sure to be lynched, which IMPLIES near lynch. That omission does not, however, make the play any less optimal given his role.

-Cerb

[davesaz]

Or, ideally, third paRRty

Why is lynching 3Ps more ideal than lynching mafia? I just want to lynch scum.

And I catch an accidental pagetop messing up the reference.

[profii]

So looking at what Cerb is saying about trying to coach Toog into using his role wisely - I think it looks legit.

I think RR saying that was the objective of what he was doing and it was sincere so that's a consideration for me...

Now, I've not played much (if any? IDK) multiball on here before so like the point that !otherscum! team will likely been on Clemency wagon was like an adjustment in my thinking (I'm slow ok)

But that makes me reconsider the RR and Toog episode? I guess so because now we know Toog is town, that means !scum and !otherscum would have flocked to the wagon - I think this means that if RR was scum he'd have to be like "Guys wait and see who rushes this wagon to find the other team" - I think that would be tough to do without dropping your own team in it... so not really a scum lean on RR.

But

we have the serial killer potential aspect in this game too I think. The bit that you could probably argue is that RR was using Toog to serve his own purpose - obviously a SK can scum hunt like the rest of us and wants to remove all of us so helping a town is no skin off their nose - now the bit I think I have to consider is RR coached Toog into getting associatives going (this benefits all) but ALSO voted for Toog.

now this can be explained away as "yeah I wanted to coach him and demonstrate/accelerate the lesson" but it can also be explained as "I want to remove players by applying pressure/mind games"

It comes down to how devious you consider cerb to be I think - SK lean for me.

[Varsoon]

I kinda want to lynch scum, though.
But I think I get it.
VOTE: DGB

Or, ideally, third paRRty

Why is lynching 3Ps more ideal than lynching mafia? I just want to lynch scum.

Removes extra kills from the game, which are more likely to land on town than scum by ratio alone.
The only way we get anything out of having third party around is if we leash them, but SaGa frontier is proof of the dangers of doing that
Furthermore, I am fairly certain that if RR is third party, they're also bulletproof.

[Wisdom]

stop hunting for 3ps and vote gamma

[Varsoon]

Why Gamma?
I like Gamma, iirc.

[Wisdom]

liking scum isn't helpful for town

[DrewVa]

@Cerb (I had to make a separate post because they’re were too many quotes in it).


Okay I realize that this was by 2 different heads and you were referencing different things. That said however, I think my question is still valid. In what world does it make a lick of sense for me to be too certain in scenario A but be too underconfident in situation B?

My point obviously being, that I perceive a clear difference on your slot’s temperament read on me and I have trouble seeing both as genuine. I’m leaning the latter read, is how your slot honestly views my temperament. Of course, the different heads saying these things might also account for it but I have trouble believing you really see me as a confident player, because you are well aware of my frustrating tendency to derp and usually don’t have strong scumreads in early game. You might not be aware of the latter though, because you have only played with me as pretty much clueless town and scum before. Undertale is town!me, when I’m not really sure wtf is happening in the game, because I didn’t read the first 100 pages. I typically am far more confident when I actually do have my head in a game. That is NAI for me btw. I have been frozen as both town and scum.

[DrewVa]

So looking at what Cerb is saying about trying to coach Toog into using his role wisely - I think it looks legit.

I think RR saying that was the objective of what he was doing and it was sincere so that's a consideration for me...

Now, I've not played much (if any? IDK) multiball on here before so like the point that !otherscum! team will likely been on Clemency wagon was like an adjustment in my thinking (I'm slow ok)

But that makes me reconsider the RR and Toog episode? I guess so because now we know Toog is town, that means !scum and !otherscum would have flocked to the wagon - I think this means that if RR was scum he'd have to be like "Guys wait and see who rushes this wagon to find the other team" - I think that would be tough to do without dropping your own team in it... so not really a scum lean on RR.

But

we have the serial killer potential aspect in this game too I think. The bit that you could probably argue is that RR was using Toog to serve his own purpose - obviously a SK can scum hunt like the rest of us and wants to remove all of us so helping a town is no skin off their nose - now the bit I think I have to consider is RR coached Toog into getting associatives going (this benefits all) but ALSO voted for Toog.

now this can be explained away as "yeah I wanted to coach him and demonstrate/accelerate the lesson" but it can also be explained as "I want to remove players by applying pressure/mind games"

It comes down to how devious you consider cerb to be I think - SK lean for me.

I have never played with either scum!RR or scum!Cerb myself but Nico was very pissed at RR for apparently fooling her in a game they won as scum. Take that for what it’s worth.

[Reasonably Rational]

@Cerb (I had to make a separate post because they’re were too many quotes in it).


Okay I realize that this was by 2 different heads and you were referencing different things. That said however, I think my question is still valid. In what world does it make a lick of sense for me to be too certain in scenario A but be too underconfident in situation B?

My point obviously being, that I perceive a clear difference on your slot’s temperament read on me and I have trouble seeing both as genuine. I’m leaning the latter read, is how your slot honestly views my temperament. Of course, the different heads saying these things might also account for it but I have trouble believing you really see me as a confident player, because you are well aware of my frustrating tendency to derp and usually don’t have strong scumreads in early game. You might not be aware of the latter though, because you have only played with me as pretty much clueless town and scum before. Undertale is town!me, when I’m not really sure wtf is happening in the game, because I didn’t read the first 100 pages. I typically am far more confident when I actually do have my head in a game. That is NAI for me btw. I have been frozen as both town and scum.

It didn't make any sense for you to be certain in the first scenario, which was the problem that I was addressing in my question to you.

This head sees you as a competent player who doesn't always think things through yes, and I think Drixx shares that opinion.

You can be confident in something without sufficient information in one scenario and not confident enough in another. To be fair though, you really need to be asking Drixx about situation B, because that particular piece of text where he mentioned you wasn't something he talked to me about, so I'm not really sure what he was trying to say. :-/

So looking at what Cerb is saying about trying to coach Toog into using his role wisely - I think it looks legit.

I think RR saying that was the objective of what he was doing and it was sincere so that's a consideration for me...

Now, I've not played much (if any? IDK) multiball on here before so like the point that !otherscum! team will likely been on Clemency wagon was like an adjustment in my thinking (I'm slow ok)

But that makes me reconsider the RR and Toog episode? I guess so because now we know Toog is town, that means !scum and !otherscum would have flocked to the wagon - I think this means that if RR was scum he'd have to be like "Guys wait and see who rushes this wagon to find the other team" - I think that would be tough to do without dropping your own team in it... so not really a scum lean on RR.

But

we have the serial killer potential aspect in this game too I think. The bit that you could probably argue is that RR was using Toog to serve his own purpose - obviously a SK can scum hunt like the rest of us and wants to remove all of us so helping a town is no skin off their nose - now the bit I think I have to consider is RR coached Toog into getting associatives going (this benefits all) but ALSO voted for Toog.

now this can be explained away as "yeah I wanted to coach him and demonstrate/accelerate the lesson" but it can also be explained as "I want to remove players by applying pressure/mind games"

It comes down to how devious you consider cerb to be I think - SK lean for me.

I have never played with either scum!RR or scum!Cerb myself but Nico was very pissed at RR for apparently fooling her in a game they won as scum. Take that for what it’s worth.

Correction: Nico played with Scum!RR in SU2(I think? Different alt? If so, I didn't even realize they were the same person), where we lost as scum in LYLO, but Nico was part of a 3p faction that was town aligned who we made lose with us, so only town won.

-Cerb

[DrewVa]

I kinda want to lynch scum, though.
But I think I get it.
VOTE: DGB

Or, ideally, third paRRty

Why is lynching 3Ps more ideal than lynching mafia? I just want to lynch scum.

Removes extra kills from the game, which are more likely to land on town than scum by ratio alone.
The only way we get anything out of having third party around is if we leash them, but SaGa frontier is proof of the dangers of doing that
Furthermore, I am fairly certain that if RR is third party, they're also bulletproof.

Well, in Overkill 1. I almost posted Undertale 1 . In Overkill 1, 3Ps weren’t problematic for town, only SKs, so I’m assuming you think RR are SK, because there are probably non-threatening 3Ps in this game, who we don’t need to bother with until we get closer to LYLO. That’s why some of Bujaber’s early posts are not sitting right with me, because of his strange SK defense. Lynching mafia isn’t more optimal than lynching SKs. Any NKs other than vigkills are bad for town.

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon is drawing parallels between my play here and my play as a malevolent 3p/sk varient in what I view as the most surprising 3p win on this site to justify pushing me over other individuals.

-Cerb

[profii]

Who is Nico

[Almost50]

Lies.

Mods can I be placed V/LA until this Friday, the 7th?

Thank you.

Noted.

[RCEnigma]

Something something hunting for SK is scummy.

[Reasonably Rational]

Some thoughts:

1.) I was the one who concluded that Toog was probably scum with Chick due to the post Cerb quoted where Chick gave a really fence sitty wishy washy "read" on Toog, which also was contradicted by other close posts. That kind of spew is (the vast majority of times) generally indicative of scum trying to WiFoM and screwing up and connecting themselves to a partner. If that post was made intentionally, then Chick was on top of it at least for that. It was the first thing I talked to Cerb about after the flip.

2.) Exploiting mechanics is kind of one of our signatures. Cerb behaving exactly as Cerb behaves shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. His reasoning for what he said and what he

didn't

say is spot on.

3.) Varsoon is really weirding me out. So far as I know, the role that won SaGa (incorrectly, since Albert B. Rampage had a killing ability) is unique. It didn't come from somewhere else and hasn't been replicated since. So ... what rationale is there to suppose we have a similar role?


@Nancy - You saw the same thing I did in regards to how Clemency acted in relation to Toog's claim. From the flip we know that Toog was more than just a hammer only role (which had to be modkilled if voted other than hammer or else the VC would "confirm" some part of the claim). Scum frequently fear that the unknown have a "worst case" ability. See Varsoon and KC in the game I referenced earlier. They were convinced I was a bomb. Without any reasoning. Similarly, it appeared that either scum wanted us to believe they were afraid of Toog (what I assumed was the case) or else really were (seems the case with updated info). That's what I said you needed to be more confidant about. You were on to that.

@Toog - Really well played. Would have been better to do that at L-2 or something but you got super high EV out of that role either way. Sorry I was wrong.

~D

[RCEnigma]

For those that don't think there are clear associations between Clemency/chickadee and DGB or Nero/Majiffy can you explain to me why chickadee trying to move the wagons away from one of those slots indicates they are town?

Because it makes sense to me why the goon specifically would make that play and not any of the other scum roles. Especially since it looked like from Chickadees perspective she could have gotten support for a creature wagon. There were plenty of slots upset with the way Creature was approaching the game.

It only blew up on her because she was the one trying to push it forward instead of letting one of the other slots take the lead.

[RCEnigma]

Get where you are coming from RR, however. Your play was predetermined coming into the day with only the information from the Clemency flip. We gained more information with the lack of flips and Toogs subsequent claim of global doctor. I feel like that wasn't taken into consideration or considered when you continued arguing for his confirmation. Maybe it's hindsight speaking but that was much more plausible than multiple protective roles in this specific setup, nevermind that in theory multiple protectives would have had to hit perfect saves for a no kill night. Then you consider Toogs claim which doesn't make sense to me as scum utility. Which leaves town or 3p, neither of which would need resolving TODAY.

[RCEnigma]

I do think it was good that Toog took the initiative and voted to confirm early instead of withholding his vote so we wouldn't spend the bulk of the day speculating on his alignment.

[DrippingGoofball]

Something something hunting for SK is scummy.

No.

It's ALWAYS scummy, only scum does that. Because they are scum, and they fear the SK's nightkill.

[DrippingGoofball]

If I can't get lynched, can I be vigged?

Pretty please.

[Reasonably Rational]

@Amzela: come play mafia with me. Tell me your thoughts on anyone who you haven't already commented on. Reasons for reads are appreciated as well. Thanks! <3

-Cerb

[ruru]

votecount

With 24 alive it takes 13 to lynch.

Gamma Emerald (3):	Alonzo (2508),	Wisdom (2566),	CheekyTeeky (2799),
Nero Cain (3):	pinturicchio (2509),	Tails (2835),	RCEnigma (2874),
Reasonably Rational (3):	Fortian (2662),	Amzela (2908),	Creature (2941),
DrippingGoofball (2):	BuJaber (2929),	Varsoon (2939),
Varsoon (1):	profii (2703),
CheekyTeeky (1):	Gamma Emerald (2794),
pinturicchio (1):	Nero Cain (2837),
hebichan (1):	BrightEyedFish (2861),
Not voting (9):	Flavor Leaf,	Malakitty,	Alchemist21,	davesaz,	Thor665,	Reasonably Rational (2516),	DrewVa (2571),	hebichan (2611),	DrippingGoofball (2629),

(expired on 2018-12-17 18:30:00) remain.

Spoiler: mobile-friendlier

Gamma Emerald (3):

Alonzo (2508), Wisdom (2566), CheekyTeeky (2799),

Nero Cain (3):

pinturicchio (2509), Tails (2835), RCEnigma (2874),

Reasonably Rational (3):

Fortian (2662), Amzela (2908), Creature (2941),

DrippingGoofball (2):

BuJaber (2929), Varsoon (2939),

Varsoon (1):

profii (2703),

CheekyTeeky (1):

Gamma Emerald (2794),

pinturicchio (1):

Nero Cain (2837),

hebichan (1):

BrightEyedFish (2861),

Not voting (9):

Flavor Leaf, Malakitty, Alchemist21, davesaz, Thor665, Reasonably Rational (2516), DrewVa (2571), hebichan (2611), DrippingGoofball (2629),

[Wisdom]

boo to rr and dgb wagons