[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

[MiniDeathStar]

Leodanny (L-3)

: Persivul, Thor665, Auro, Egix96

Lamees (L-4)

: rb, Malakitty, YyottaCat

rb (L-5)

: Lamees, Leodanny

DVa (L-6)

: NotNova

YyottaCat (L-6)

: Dunnstral

NotNova (L-6)

: DVa

Something_Smart

I thought the blatant self-contradiction in 233 was towny but also 240 reads like trying too hard to be flippant...

[Something_Smart]

i would be more okay with people being on the fence if they had a direction that wasn't just being on the fence

But the view is lovely from up here

[Something_Smart]

Wait lol I was just making a joke but that's actually a valid point. You see things better and in a more unbiased way if you don't have an opinion on the issue already. (Which is kind of my philosophy anyway.)

[Thor665]

I think we've beaten this point quite into the ground; I don't think LAMIST is a useful tell and I've stated my reasons why. Let's move on.

What would you like to move on to?

I find concern with you attacking someone else's scumhunting while not committing your own and desire to still explore that point, but I'm open to other topics of conversation if you have them.

@Something_Smart

Your reads help us sort you, as you said -- so if something changed/got added from the previous post, asking you to post them would be useful.

Agreed - but after I had already answered I was posting my reads to help people read me, you would then have to presume either I had forgotten my purpose in posting reads or was lying in my answer to have your question make sense.

Also, what would be my scum motivation in "looking like I'm efforting", considering I've actually efforted in my scum games, especially when I'm questioning why someone townleaned me for doing that?

Just because you efforted as scum in the past does not mean you always will - or are you claiming it does?
I'm not sure what your motivation for it is - but it appears fairly factual you're doing exactly that so now I'm exploring it. It does make more sense to me you'd do it as scum, and it ASSUREDLY makes more sense to me you'd try to cover it up as scum as opposed to admitting it.

I'm feeling more like these answers are deflections than responses. Meh, then again you do answer in questions a lot like I do.
Please delve deeper into that first response and my rebuttal - I feel like the answer to your alignment is there.

I had a great case on scum!Volxen in my just-completed Newbie 1900 he was tunneled on me, I kept engaging him on that, showed how his vote shifts were inconsistent and dishonest. I'm actually curious -- I can link you to the posts, tell me why my case (even if correct) was not a "good" one?

You can post or link it.
I'm willing to bet my answer will be 'there's a difference between being right and being good'.
Day 1 lynches are, with few exceptions, educated guesses with very limited info. I submit it's impossible to have them be good - the only goal is to have them not be trash.

Leo needs more votes I think. Persi, Thor, and Auro all seem like town to me so far, so I don't think scum are pushing a lynch there. Seems like a good choice.

Though admittedly I started to quaver on my Auro read earlier, this was a similar thought process to what I had - it was extra interesting because other wagons were being shopped around with cases that are fairly similar to the case on Leodanny (like Yyotta is basically an expy of Leodanny and each case could functionally be tossed at the other effortlessly).

I suppose you could be the theory scum hopping on, but I don't feel like you'd hang a hat on that hook on your way in the door.

Let's toss you in the town pool.

[Something_Smart]

@Something_Smart

I mean... I want to move onto talking about the game and about players other than myself. It doesn't necessarily need to be with you, but if you want to engage me on anything I just said, go for it. How do you feel about Lamees?

And, I think you're not using "attacking" correctly. Attacking implies aggressive intent; so I would be wanting to call someone either scum or a bad player-- but clearly I don't want either of those things. I'm just giving my opinion on the value of a tell.

[Auro]

Agreed - but after I had already answered I was posting my reads to help people read me, you would then have to presume either I had forgotten my purpose in posting reads or was lying in my answer to have your question make sense.

I did recall some game I read earlier where you said you don't believe in posting reads lists; your phrasing "I've sorted already" without posting any other reads reminded me of that. Hence the reason I started off my question with "If you're done sorting". I didn't think too much into whether you were lying about it -- I think it's possible to do this as both alignments -- so I engaged on it.

Just because you efforted as scum in the past does not mean you always will - or are you claiming it does?
I'm not sure what your motivation for it is - but it appears fairly factual you're doing exactly that so now I'm exploring it. It does make more sense to me you'd do it as scum, and it ASSUREDLY makes more sense to me you'd try to cover it up as scum as opposed to admitting it.

I'm feeling more like these answers are deflections than responses. Meh, then again you do answer in questions a lot like I do.
Please delve deeper into that first response and my rebuttal - I feel like the answer to your alignment is there.

I effort as both alignments. I'm not covering up that I'm efforting, am I? O.o
I'm saying there's no special

scum motivation

for me to effort, when I know that efforting alone won't make me look any townier. So if you're going to evaluate my alignment based on that question, it shouldn't be for "trying to look like you're efforting". Agree?
Therefore, an accusation of me "trying to look like I'm efforting" shouldn't hold any weight.

You can post or link it.
I'm willing to bet my answer will be 'there's a difference between being right and being good'.
Day 1 lynches are, with few exceptions, educated guesses with very limited info. I submit it's impossible to have them be good - the only goal is to have them not be trash.

Spoiler:

Also, let me flip this on you, since you seem to be intent on sorting out my slot.

1. You asked me about FL's sheep, and I answered.
2. You asked me about my thoughts on Lion's case, and I responded saying that I think that may affect interactions.
3. You disagreed that I would voice my thoughts on a case the same regardless of alignment, and I explained that it was *my* belief, and it's not as relevant anyway WRT the content I'm producing overall.
4. You thought I was discarding Not_Mafia as a lynch altogether and only relying on investigatives; I clarified that suggesting that investigatives target him doesn't imply he's never a lynch option.
5. You asked me why I pointed out scummy Lamees plays but refused to vote for her, and I justified that.
6. You asked why I'm not trying to pressure Lamees, and I explained why.

Your vote's still on me, so I get a feeling you're either refusing to revise your stance on my slot, OR that you think my responses are insufficient. If it's the latter, feel free to engage me further on the relevant point(s).

7. You disputed my reasons for 4|5, I justified them.
8. You asked me about my thoughts on FL, and I answered.

Add the above to the list. Now, use these numbers and show me what exactly makes you scumread me that highly.
Calling out your engagement for not being honest is not me "throwing shade". You have had opportunity to start engaging honestly.

I've read Volxen's ISO, and it's funny how he never responded to WHY he shifted his vote from me to Flavor Leaf.

He talks about how scum!Flavor could have motivations in unvoting me, and concludes by saying: "The fact that you left Auro's wagon in favor of voting for me and presenting a case against me does not in and of itself clear you as town."

He said he voiced skepticism of Flavor way back in post 245. Even there, it's just skepticism and NOT a scumread. He simply says that if Flavor's town it makes sense, and if Flavor's scum it makes sense.

To summarise, from Volx's POV:
1. Flavor's reaction test can come from town or scum
2. Flavor's unvoting Auro can come from town or scum

And goes on to unvote me and vote Flavor. While maintaining that he's *highly* suspicious of me.

Therefore,
VOTE: Volxen

I'm aware of that timeline. I was already suspicious of him at the time that I voted for him, especially when he uses language like "a wagon is brewing on you", where he is talking as if my lynch today is a foregone conclusion before he even presented a "case" against me. His follow up with the VCA misrepresentation just further cemented my suspicions of his slot.

"A wagon is brewing on you" doesn't mean your lynch is a foregone conclusion.
It was perfectly reasonable, as he and I were ready to vote for you, and a couple of slots who were townreading me could've, as well.
(Ariane and Not_Maf both think my wagon was scum motivated)
I can't buy that that phrase alone made you more suspicious of ME, who you were "highly suspicious" of, where the rest of his actions could, in your words, "come from town or scum".

I changed my vote to him because that is where I currently want to apply pressure.

We're pretty close to the day end, so this doesn't even make sense. I was your top scumread, and anyone who votes at that time votes to lynch, not just to 'apply pressure'.

Why is lamees not being lynched?

Don't you think Volxen's a good lynch?
I mean he's been deeply tunneled on me throughout the game, didn't bother much to scumhunt elsewhere, loads of fluff-posts, unnatural vote progression to Flavor Leaf, etc.

I'm not townreading anyone on my wagon.
What you say is correct, BUT - your vote was still on me through the buildup to L-1, even when you found FL doing things that weren't pinging you right.
I also don't necessarily believe there was only one scum on my wagon. Lamees' "full responsibility" schtick might even be because she didn't want the other to be lynched for it.

I'm scumreading you for reasons independent of my VCA; VCA only supports it. You're not defending yourself from that case, just throwing more fluff my way. I've already stated why Flavor Leaf isn't my favorite lunch (whatevz) today, also Lamees I'm unsure of. Snowbeast is also an option for me, as I've stated -- you simply have a lot more scum equity anyway.

I'm open to revising my stance if you give a proper defence. So far, you haven't - just deflecting, as Flavor pointed out.

volxen (L-3)

: Flavor Leaf, Auro

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, volxen

Auro (L-4)

: snowbeast

Lamees (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

Ariane (L-4)

: YurikoJasmine

lionheart1492, Lamees

What you say is correct, BUT - your vote was still on me through the buildup to L-1, even when you found FL doing things that weren't pinging you right.

Isolated, this wouldn't count -- you would simply be pressuring me and I agree it got from L-4 to L-1 pretty fast.

But pressure became "lynch target" somewhere along that line, and when it came to L-1, you could *see* that the rest of my wagon wasn't exactly casing me all that strongly, you kept pushing there.

Chuck the whole wagon-motivation arguments, those are weak for town anyway since my alignment isn't known to town either way, as you point out. I've called you out on the FL vote change and lack of honest engagement, and the non-scumhunting that I'd expect town Volxen to do. Respond to those. Change my mind.

Sure, you could maybe read into the game if you've time for additional context, but the spoilered text should be enough. Of course I know the difference between "right" and "good", I had an argument with Lamees in postgame about that, too. If you think this case isn't "good", do tell me your definitions of it, because I think a lynch off this case is superior to someone whose playstyle is naturally scummy.

[Auro]

Meh, then again you do answer in questions a lot like I do.

Oh, I just think asking relevant questions as part of a rebuttal also makes it easier to reach to a conclusion / the root of the disagreement, so I naturally do this. If you think I'm deflecting somewhere specifically, tell.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Lamees

[Persivul]

I'll agree this might lead to players who play very poorly being lynched every game - hopefully it will teach them to not play poorly. I fail to see the issue.

<slow clap>

[Auro]

I'll agree this might lead to players who play very poorly being lynched every game - hopefully it will teach them to not play poorly. I fail to see the issue.

<slow clap>

What's the problem with this?

[Auro]

Please delve deeper into that first response and my rebuttal - I feel like the answer to your alignment is there.

Also, interesting that you use the term "rebuttal" -- I simply asked a question based on an assumption I made and an inconsistency I felt, which wasn't AI -- I never made an argument that you were scum for it, so why was your response a "rebuttal"?

[Leodanny]

VOTE: Lamees

So why’d you change your mind?

[Auro]

I did recall some game I read earlier where you said you don't believe in posting reads lists; your phrasing "I've sorted already" without posting any other reads reminded me of that. Hence the reason I started off my question with "If you're done sorting". I didn't think too much into whether you were lying about it -- I think it's possible to do this as both alignments -- so I engaged on it.

Also remember that my initial question was about you "tossing" people into pools based on their playstyle, and starting from there; something I felt then was different from actual "reads".
"I posted about my tossing people into pools so people could sort me"
"I'm done sorting now" (in a later post without mentioning any updated reads)
If you explicitly said you were *scumreading* Leo/Dunn earlier, instead of the "pool-tossing", I probably wouldn't have made the incorrect assumption when you said "I've already done sorting".

[Persivul]

I'll agree this might lead to players who play very poorly being lynched every game - hopefully it will teach them to not play poorly. I fail to see the issue.

<slow clap>

What's the problem with this?

There's no problem with it. The slow clap indicates I agree with the position.

[Auro]

Okay. I thought the slow clap implied sarcasm.

[Persivul]

So why’d you change your mind?

First, it's not really accurate to phrase it as I

changed my mind

. The setup issue I noted is weak and was mostly intended to help get out of RVS. I haven't really looked at you since. In fact, let's do that.
...
Now I've read your ISO, and I really wouldn't mind keeping my vote on you, particularly after the attempted spin above. But, let's stick with Lamees for now:

- three useless posts on the setup. She didn't follow up on the two questions. She was specifically asked for the reason for the questions and didn't respond.

- 101 - "He agreed with me though, so he can't possibly be scum." Seems like this is sarcasm intended to be funny, but then:
102 - "I'm also not trying to be funny."

- 144 149 233 - reads are way too strong for this point of the game

[Persivul]

Okay. I thought the slow clap implied sarcasm.

Nope. There are people on this site who have adopted a scummy playstyle. If they stick with it long enough, then:
- they're difficult to sort.
- they're difficult to push. Too many people accept the

it's just a playstyle thing

excuse.

Fuck that. If you're town, you have a responsibility to show you're town.

[Persivul]

Edit:

do not talk about ongoing games

[Auro]

1. You really think he's so inept at scum that he'd try to disguise a purposeful vote by outright announcing it as a completely random vote?

2. Two votes /= collecting votes and my wagon was growing quick. Why the hyperbole?

Why does someone have to be inept for me to dislike something they did or said? Why would it be "inept" for Dunnstral to do that as scum?

Two votes on page 1 and I don't think it's a bad *page 1* conclusion to make that "Auro is getting wagoned".

Waiting for your response on this, and the post after that.

Nope. There are people on this site who have adopted a scummy playstyle. If they stick with it long enough, then:
- they're difficult to sort.
- they're difficult to push. Too many people accept the

it's just a playstyle thing

excuse.

Fuck that. If you're town, you have a responsibility to show you're town.

Thing is, I don't think some "naturally scummy" players do it intentionally. town!Lamees, for example, actually believes everything she says, even if they look blatantly scummy.
I also don't think all "naturally scummy" players are very hard to sort, it might just take some more effort.
They may look "naturally scummy", but still have scumtells which can be identified.
It's possible their scumgames differ slightly from their scummy towngames.
It takes a little more effort to sort them correctly, but I think it's bad to lynch players who aren't doing it intentionally -- Lamees gets scumread and lynched early fairly often, but that hasn't stopped her from playing the same, has it?

[Leodanny]

@Persivul I

feel she’s frustrated with rb being his “wow so true imo” self, and to be honest, rb isn’t really doing much. Also, my question was not a spin, I wanted to know why you would vote lamees.

[Leodanny]

I mean, he’s just saying wow
Imo
True
One
Vote lamees
Two

[Leodanny]

I wonder if Lamees and rb are scum trying to distance each other? Hey, rb, are you scum?

[Egix96]

I thought the blatant self-contradiction in 233 was towny

In what way?

[Auro]

Anyway, this is def not town malakitty.

Town malakitty was less aggressive with pushes and was more prone to sheep other players. (In the game we played together at least).

Then again I'm not really gonna call her scum just off meta/one previous game together

.

@Egix

[Auro]

FWIW, I see it as a progression of her thoughts, not necessarily a "blatant contradiction". That's Lamees for ya.