Open 741: Red Flag [Endgame]

[northsidegal]

Votecount 2.2

mastina (1):

Aster 1126

Gamma Emerald (2):

Lolwagons 1142, mastina 1214

pinturicchio (1):

RadiantCowbells 1193

Clemency (1):

AnonymousGhost 1221

Not voting (6):

Clemency, Gamma Emerald, ceejayvinoya, Keyser Söze, pinturicchio 1207, Blackjacks 1250

With 11 alive, it’s 6 to lynch. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-12-22 23:27:59).

Searching for a replacement for pinturicchio and ceejayvinoya, who failed to pick up his prod.

[northsidegal]

PenguinPower replaces pinturicchio.

[PenguinPower]

Hmm...

Hi.

[LolWagons]

Oh thank god

[PenguinPower]

Why?

[LolWagons]

Why?

I META’d you for Chibibear’s normal so I feel like I have a grasp on how you play. And you actually contribute to games which is desperately needed right now.

[PenguinPower]

Interesting. I'll come back to that in a bit.

[Gamma Emerald]

Theory test time.

MEME MEN: yikes. This one lied about meta with me. That’s a solid scum marker.

vote: THE MEME MEN

As I seem to recall, Meme Men's slot is AnonymousGhost, yes?
+3 AnonymousGhost.

Apologies for the absence btw, ended up napping inadvertently.

God that post by Blackjacks is cringey

No it isn't. Is it a mafiascum.net tradition to insult somebody's sense of humour on day 1 or something?

No. Why do you not think it’s just a little bit overwrought?

So, any thoughts on anyone’s alignment?

Unadulterated LAMIST question. I feel Gamma has stepped way too hard on the game-solve gas pedal here (in a unnatural / forced way)
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Nice double standard jackass.

“Jackass”?! Ok, accepted.

“Double standard”? Nope.
Your question and my vote are different Mr Gamma.

Im more talking about you voting me for the exact opposite reason of American Presidents. What do you expect from me? And don’t try to talk about “I thought that was the norm” because you know I’ve tryharded as town before (maybe, don’t remember our exact meta).
This doesn’t make you scum btw, it just upsets me.

+1 Aster, Keyser.

Right Head has it right. I think I’ll trust the hydra partner when they say Left Head is out of it.

Unvote

By unvoting here you mean that he forgetting about you was the unique reason you voted him? You said you did tryhard as town but doesn't seem to have noticed or get interested in the two suspiscious posts by MEMEMAN?

Yeah that was my reason. I skimmed over that part of your post, because I was just like “hm they’re scumreading MEME MEN too, that’s nice
I’ll look it over

+1 AnonymousGhost.

Im more talking about you voting me for the exact opposite reason of American Presidents. What do you expect from me? And don’t try to talk about “I thought that was the norm” because you know I’ve tryharded as town before (maybe, don’t remember our exact meta).
This doesn’t make you scum btw, it just upsets me.

Interesting mention RE: American Presidents. Perhaps it would have been more strategic for scum-Gamma coming into this game imitating the ‘lack of drive’ demonstrated by town-Gamma in that game. I did not mean to upset you, my paranoia-feels are real and I wanted to call it out:
- also echoed by your subsequent RQS analysis

What is echoed by that analysis?

Not quite sure if this counts so I'll just give it a +.5 for Keyser.

@Gamma
Are you comfortable with MEME’s town read of you?

I wasn’t aware that was a townread, seemed more like a jab with no real thoughts on my alignment?

Not a plus for Keyser, but definitively a +1 for AnonymousGhost.

pedit: ok calling them bland answers is a little insulting. "regular answers," then
-LH

Pintu’s #3 was interesting.

This would count as a +1 for pint.

THE MEME MEN's answers

It took LH@THE MEME MEN almost two days to answer my questions, and what did we get out of it?

A glorious exercise in beating-around-the-bush

. Let me walk you through his post.

I dont do rvs anymore, i personally jump straight to business like james doakes and penguinpower do.

✓ Statement does not answer the question.

THE MEME MEN told us to be careful voting during RVS, so I asked him whether he thought RVS was bad. "I don't RVS myself" does not answer the question, which clearly intended to ask whether he thought RVS shouldn't happen at all; what does he think about other players RVSing?

players using words when they're sure, or not using words - it depends on the context like what they're trying to attain - whether reaction testing or whatever

✓ Skips one question.
✓ Doesn't answer the other.

The main question was whether players shouldn't vote lightly. A subquestion asked about the alternative of "using only words without voting". Yet he answers like the question was "Are words bad?"

look at Herebus with the 14 player large normal, moderated by Krazy. that had 4 scum.

✓ Cites anecdotal evidence.
✓ Cited evidence does not support his point.

Herebus day one had only two out of four scum on the lynchwagon, which is completely average since over half the town was on the lynchwagon. If anything, Herebus demonstrates that the scum will not collectively jump on the lynchwagon merely because they can.

Yes, they did collectively jump on the lynchwagon at LyLo, and that's completely beyond the point. Of course mafia would collectively quickhammer a LyLo wagon when they can. The real issue is about whether mafia will try to collectively quickhammer during early game.

---

Going Deeper

There is something about these answers. It seems that THE MEME MEN are unwilling to answer questions with "yes" or "no" and are instead trying to write something that resembles an answer but actually isn't. I get the impression that they hope my questions will just disappear, which is further corroborated by LH taking his sweet time to answer my questions while RH avoided looking like a lurker; he could've been trying to just stall things hoping town's attention shifts elsewhere in the meanwhile.

Now, if THE MEME MEN were town, why do they need to avoid answering questions? If he believed in his opinions, he could've confidently presented them; they weren't scum opinions at any rate. Alternatively he could have realized and admitted that although he hadn't thought things through, he made his suggestion in good faith.

On the other hand, if THE MEME MAN is scum, this behaviour makes a whole lotta sense. He clearly cannot confidently present his opinion because he knows it is a scum opinion and/or doesn't even believe it himself. He can't find another presentable opinion that doesn't make him look stupid. He doesn't admit that he hadn't thought things through because I said earlier that I expected town to crusade that his opinion is right, and certainly he doesn't want to look like folding scum. Stuck with a no-win situation, he tries to make things go away by stalling and beating around the bush.

Tl;dr:

THE MEME MEN opened the game with a LAMIST suggestion. I think his suggestion was unlikely to have been made in good faith. THE MEME MEN are scared to talk about their opinions leading to their suggestion.

VOTE: THE MEME MEN

God this was amazing. This is the good side of wallposting.

Vote: THE MEME MEN

I'm not sure how many points this would be, but it's at least a minimum of +2 AnonymousGhost. (I'll be conservative here.)

Ok let's try this again, since it's starting to look like a death tunnel from scum.

Glad you're responding. Can you please answer the following questions?
Do you know what RVS is?

yes, a stage where many players claim to joke vote . Yet the votes get counted

Do you think RVS is a bad thing?

bad as in people making joke votes then later complaining about fluff posting or inactivity - then yes it's bad

Is it a bad thing for players to generally have votes standing to indicate who they are most suspicious of, or to exert pressure?

nope. Why would you ask this question?

Would it be better if players only used words to communicate and only placed their votes when they were sure they wanted a lynch?

if only words or votes, sure, votes would be better

Do you believe mafia will actually try to collectively quicklynch a bandwagon provided they can get three townie votes?

yes, and the post should've been clear as day. ceejay understood it, for instance

Beginning to disagree with RH's tr of you. We'll get together later to discuss.
The way aster is projecting what HE did in a past game onto us, looks scummy. Anyone see the micro game with okapoka and saudade scum? Aster resembling the former.
-LH

What, DDU? That’s a very strange mention I feel. Also gives a significant pointer of who you might be. Also I don’t really see any projecting.

Definitively a +1 AnonymousGhost here.

blackjack/Firebringer are scum together
volxen is town
aster is town
nibbul is town
ceejay +equity town

why do u think i am scum?

you correctly called blackjack scum in your sole serious scumread of the game then went back to a cutesy memewagon on obvtown
also I'm pretty sure you never make that post about sheeping me as town
If I'm wrong you're welcome to prove me wrong,

I know some of you don't know RC that well
but this is scum RC
the only other explanation is that he started using drugs
RC, IF YOU HAVE TAKEN UP DRUGS, SEEK AN INTERVENTION NOW
-rh

WHAT.

+1 AnonymousGhost.

Also I would expect to be catching more attention for one of my recent posts.

Almost wanted to call the previous post a +1 Aster, but paired with this I definitely am.

Catching up with the thread I think I may have miss-read your soft/victim/vulnerable vibe

Explain when and why you got that vibe? I don’t feel like I’ve been playing that way at all.

Really?
Sensitive overreaction/sensitive:

"Nice double standard jackass"
"it just upsets me."
"What a welcoming bunch."

Self-focus softness:

"What do you expect from me?"
"Pretty sure I put significant effort in during the Tit For Tat we were in"
"Eh? What’s this about? What’s the relationship between me and that gif to you?"
"I very much dislike the case on me, but all I’ve been able to pick out for why comes back to OMGUS."
"Explain when and why you got that vibe? I don’t feel like I’ve been playing that way at all."

( )

Why be on the defensive foot?:

"Also I would expect to be catching more attention for one of my recent posts."
"Does no one want to engage me even when I provide a general reason to?"
"Thought more people would poke me for admitting to being OMGUSy."

I presume this one was not serious though (?):

Are you gonna seriously just stonewall me when I’m trying to have a real discussion

Some of these just don't make sense. How is me saying I thought something I said would provoke people be defensive? I'm also gonna need an explanation for self-focus softness, because that doesn't really mean anything yet, it's just gibberish. And what? You think my post where I said I was trying to have real discussion was NOT serious? This reads extreeeeeemely fake and crammed into a narrative but I get the feeling this is from ignorance, not malice.

I'm going to call this one a +1 Keyser.

notably i cannot read ceejay and my townread there is somewhat lazy

as it stands my reads are

{RC}
{Pinturicchio, Nibbuls, Aster}
{Blackjacks, Volxen}
{ceejay, gamma, clemency, anonygo}
-null line- {firebringer}
then with {keyser, springtrap} as actual scumreads

I kinda felt like you’d have more scumreads?

This section would be a +1 RC.

I'm kinda tired tho and losing coherency so I know I am handling this inconsistently, either giving points to things that shouldn't be given points or not giving points to everything which should have points (in other words, in the middle when this is something where you want to be on one of the extremes for), but altogether what I saw from this iso is VERY strong evidence for a Gamma-Ghost scumteam. Others have some evidence, like potentially Keyser; Aster; etc. But by far the most obvious would be Gamma Emerald and AnonymousGhost.

Wait a second what fucking theory are you testing?

[Gamma Emerald]

that being said this is kind of a small thing and I only noticed it now because people brought attention to gamma. I'm not super excited by default about the prospect of sheeping mastina's meta guilty

I'm still townreading pin but I'd like to hear rc's theory, I hope it's interesting because we're super bored

What meta theory: that I reference random meta as scum? That is a crock loaded with bullshit and anyone who actually pays a mothercucking lick of attention to my play would know damn fucking well that’s NAI at best.

[Blackjacks]

VOTE: gamma

Subject: Micro 754: Shut Up and Vote II: Electric Boogaloo [Game Ove]

[Playername] has had an opportunity to react to [Event] but they haven't. This strikes me as scummy.

1) she would see it as an imperative to play disruption on me if she were town
2) she has consistently been a power player in her town games and has done little here
3) i think you guys underestimate just how scummy it is that she decided volxen was scum before he posted and stuck with the read after

4) and most importantly she just

feels

scum. and i thought she was obvtown in the game i played with her and i immediately locktowned her both times i spectated town her. she's not hard to read.

[Gamma Emerald]

So for a vote in what iirc was pre-game, I’m somehow scum? What the actual fuck.

[LolWagons]

Dude you’re literally doing the same thing I’ve been accusing you of doing from my replace in. You just get on these one on ones with anyone who throws any amount of suspicion on you and try to avoid actually pushing or engaging people. The only person you haven’t really bucked is me and I’m wondering if it’s because you’re intimidated.

[Gamma Emerald]

It’s because you haven’t really given any reasons for me to pick apart afaict.

[LolWagons]

Like if you had given reads and shit or even explained like “hey nah man that’s just me that’s just how I do, I get the logic sorry here’s where I’m at” I could have been convinced to unvote you.

But. You. Just. Keep. Doing. It. Over. And. Over.

[LolWagons]

It’s because you haven’t really given any reasons for me to pick apart afaict.

Are you kidding me? I categorized every post in your ISO. You’ve done very little that’s helpful and spent four times as much effort on posturing yourself with others as you have actively engaging other people and trying to get reads.

[Gamma Emerald]

You categorized my posts but you didn’t actually post what you thought of each one. Not really much to debate with what you posted except it’s just not really as scum indicative as you think.

[Gamma Emerald]

Like if you had given reads and shit or even explained like “hey nah man that’s just me that’s just how I do, I get the logic sorry here’s where I’m at” I could have been convinced to unvote you.

But. You. Just. Keep. Doing. It. Over. And. Over.

Meh I was put off from talking with you by the way you were leveraging votes on me.

[LolWagons]

But would you agree you’ve spent more effort defending yourself than anything? I mean seriously look at your own ISO.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes. I mean it’s practicalky the only thing I’m doing rn because very few serious suspicions have been pointed elsewhere today.

[LolWagons]

Like if you had given reads and shit or even explained like “hey nah man that’s just me that’s just how I do, I get the logic sorry here’s where I’m at” I could have been convinced to unvote you.

But. You. Just. Keep. Doing. It. Over. And. Over.

Meh I was put off from talking with you by the way you were leveraging votes on me.

Yeah I was hoping the pressure would make you contribute and maybe I could move on to someone else and put pressure on them until I felt more confident that read in but you didn’t.

Seriously this game is a harder solve than most and I don’t have any strong reads like I had in my first game back on the site but you’re my strongest scum read specifically because of the overarching themes I mentioned.

[LolWagons]

Yes. I mean it’s practicalky the only thing I’m doing rn because very few serious suspicions have been pointed elsewhere today.

But come on man, you were doing it on day 1 too.

[Gamma Emerald]

Tbh I’m now starting to look at other things and I’m curious whether anyone has an idea of why Nibbyi died?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes. I mean it’s practicalky the only thing I’m doing rn because very few serious suspicions have been pointed elsewhere today.

But come on man, you were doing it on day 1 too.

Did I say I didn’t? Why are you getting bent out of shape over semantics

[LolWagons]

Yes. I mean it’s practicalky the only thing I’m doing rn because very few serious suspicions have been pointed elsewhere today.

But come on man, you were doing it on day 1 too.

Did I say I didn’t? Why are you getting bent out of shape over semantics

Dude. Come on. I said you’ve been defensive the whole game.

You say yeah, well today it’s because I’ve been suspected by multiple people.

I say, yeah, but you were doing it yesterday too.

And you try to flip that on me and say it’s a semantics issue? It’s a perfectly valid criticism of your explanation. Your explanation didn’t adequately cover your behavior for both days, only one.

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay I missed the point of what you were trying to say then. I was talking about why that was pretty much the only thing I’d been doing today.